The Dark Rigidity of Fundamentalist Rural America

originally posted by: WilliamtheResolute

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: chadderson
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck
Written by an "educated liberal" on how it is wrong for "white (heartland) Americans" to look out for their own interests.
More grasping for straws. More generalizations. More of the same... Yawn.

It's always nice to have somebody volunteer to step up and confirm the central thesis. Thanks to you and all those who star you.

I would like to offer an article as a counter-point to your premise, it's a very entertaining "Brief History of the Redneck":


takimag.com...

Yes it was entertaining. But my reading it shows the difference between many "Town and Country" people. Let me explain.

I detest Taki. I have detested him since he wrote for "The New Statesman" I am so glad the bigoted dumbass has pissed off to the USA.

However. As an educated urbanite I am first and foremost interested in Ideas. I believe in the dialectical (or Socratic) theory of knowledge through argument. It is of interest for me to see what the otherside is saying so I can fully participate in an argument as opposed to a shouting match. Educated people value argument uneducated people tend not to. No I do not consider any secular argument that begin with "the bible says" as a valid idea. The same goes for the Torah/Gita/or Koran. I believe in equal ops!

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Thank you for thread. I did not know Canadians were aware of this group. I was born in Mississippi 66 yrs ago. 13th generation southern Baptist and Methodist. But, those were old time religions. Before the 80's, the churches acted as patriots, not political party members. It's funny how abortion was no big deal until it became legal and safe. Christian women have been performing abortions for 2000 years. My mother had two of them in the 50's.

I have a more cynical opinion of fundamental southern white Christians. For all their talk about freedom and the constitution, they fear freedom for others. That is why politics and supreme court positions have taken the place of Jesus. They are not ignorant, they make this choice.

a reply to: D8Tee

$77,287 does indeed look like a great wage for a 40 hour work week that is $37.16/hour not too shabby a wage. i bet all Americans just love the $55,775 a year they all made in 2015. oh that's right not all farmers made $77,287 a year, just like many if not most Americans didn't make $55,775 a year. that is the problem with an average, it's not a realistic representation. some may have thousands of acres of land, and make far more than a small farmer with only a few hundred acres. and that 37.16/hour i put up is also not realistic since first off farmers don't work 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, ie 40 hours per week. they work 7 days a week in many cases, and however long the work takes them. i just this year watched a farmer harvesting his crop at midnight, and he had started early that morning, and started early the next morning. figure even at a five day week, he was likely working in excess of 85 hours that week. then on top of that most farms are not a one man operation so that figure could be for anywhere from two people and up earning that money with family involved.

as for the average net worth of $2.7 million, that is actually extremely disappointing. that is the value of all assets, minus the total of all liabilities. Put another way, net worth is what is owned minus what is owed. for a farm that means the value of all the equipment, land, and livestock they have, against outstanding loans. and while $2.7 million does sound like a lot of money, when it comes to a farm that is just pitiful. and it is pitiful for just a small farm, forget about large farms (remember it again is an average of all farms). as an example a friend was renting a house on what had been a small "hobby farm". it had something like 6 acres of land, and to be honest poor land for farming (which is why it was no longer being farmed). that tiny bit of "farmland". was worth $2 million all on it's own. so just that tiny bit of land is worth almost as much as the average net worth of all farms including even huge farms with possibly thousands of acres? but again since that is not an average, it is unfair to compare with averages. so in 2015 the average prices of farm land ranged from $1,159/acre in Saskatchewan, to $10,063/acre in Ontario, with a national average of $2,683/acre. so that average $2.7 million value in Saskatchewan would be equal to owning 2,330 acres, 268 acres in Ontario and nationally 1,006 acres. (which shows how misleading averages can be). and that is not even including the expensive equipment it takes to run a farm. even a used (for a 2014) combine can cost over $250,000. a new one over $500,000. and that is just one piece of needed equipment of many. and the bigger the farm, the bigger and more equipment you would need. no an average farm net worth at $2.7 million is actually very bad sign. a sign that most Canadian farms are riding a fine line, close to bankruptcy.

originally posted by: chadderson
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Written by an "educated liberal" on how it is wrong for "white (heartland) Americans" to look out for their own interests.

More grasping for straws. More generalizations. More of the same... Yawn.

Did you read it? It makes note how rural folks vote against their own interests as in "if you make under 300,000$ a year and you vote Republican you are just stupid.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
We get it, really we all do... elitists in America's major population centers look down their noses at the dumb rednecks who are too stupid to blindly think the way those elitist assholes want us to think. You can try to paint over that statement all you wish, but that's EXACTLY what the author is saying here.

I think it's more than just the author, this seems to be the central theme to most hard left liberals here and around the world. I'm glad I identify as a redneck. They have so much more class. You rarely see a pinky turned up while sipping from the mason jar.

originally posted by: MyHappyDogShiner
The fundamentalists the article speaks of are not so different than the religious fundamentalists raising hell in the middle east and everywhere else they might go to.

....Ah dammit!, I said it....

Oh, #!...

Hahaha! Yep, I remember my local church beheading apostates and throwing gays off of buildings the other day.

What about the liberal fundamentalists we see in academia that are rioting every other day in an attempt to censor any opposing opinion?

originally posted by: Aazadan
I've lived in the culture this author writes about for the past 17 years now however. It's not a culture I particularly enjoy. What I dislike about rural America is multifaceted. I find the entire culture to be full of self absorbed, greedy, judgmental pricks. Cities have plenty of problems too, but city problems are a bit different.

Fear of cities...you forgot fear. I'm suburban with a view towards the city, now living in small-town rural. Lot of folks here wouldn't ever consider driving the highway into the city. Wouldn't walk around. Wouldn't take the subway. It's unfamiliar and intimidating. Took a schoolbus to the museum as a kid, and that pretty much covers it.
And when I moved here, I was advised that even the mosquitoes vote Conservative. But I would reflect that much of the racial bigotry and the political pissing-in-one's-boot that occurs both here and is featured in the offending article, may well be a generational thing. Sunlight disinfects. Youth have enough media at hand that their world is a lot larger. Most kids are excited by change...most grown-ups are scared of it.

And I have stated that I am always charmed by small-town America with its central squares and red, white and blue bunting. I find the people open and friendly. However I remain conscious of a few things, including the facts that I am white, male, and I'm just passing through.

originally posted by: generik
a reply to: D8Tee

not any that i have ever known. relatives of mine have recently stopped farming. they were getting too old and their kids all were not willing to do the hard work, for the low pay, ie barely making ends meet. i hear the same story from farming families i know both in the US and Canada. i don't know any of the rich land baron/factory farmers.

I'm close enough to the locals to hear the joke:
Q - How do you define child abuse in the country?
A - Leaving the farm to the kids.

a reply to: generik

Farmers in the US have never been rich, their situation is better now thanks to farm subsidies but they used to almost unanimously live in poverty. Farming is the very definition of working hard to not get anywhere in life. A tradition small towns are happy to keep alive. That's not a good thing.

originally posted by: D8Tee
You mentioned Canada, the numbers look not too shabby would you agree?

The average net operating income in 2015 is forecast to be $77,287.
The average net worth per farm is expected to reach $2.7 million this year.

No. That's pretty shabby. $77k for your farms operating revenue. Out of that has to come profit, a portion of which you get for your wage. That's going to be what, 25k?

Even if you got the full $77k, any decent medical, math, or engineering degree would literally pay that your first job out of school.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
Just look at that sentence...It's carefully crafted to defy the logic of complaining A) about companies shutting down US based factories and opening up new ones in third world economies and B) about a flood of cheap, low skilled labour driving wages down by don't of over supply.

That's their own fault for not choosing to go into a competitive field.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

I don't know if it's a fear of cities, I think it's more just a dislike of outsiders. I just had a job interview last week, and one of the first things the interviewer said to me was they reached out to me for an interview because I was from a small town and shared their values... they didn't want to hire someone from a big city who might be "different".

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

I don't know if it's a fear of cities, I think it's more just a dislike of outsiders. I just had a job interview last week, and one of the first things the interviewer said to me was they reached out to me for an interview because I was from a small town and shared their values... they didn't want to hire someone from a big city who might be "different".

Good point. Cities do represent diversity. They are unfamiliar to many, and for those who figure that cities are the embodiment of mammon...that's not a place where you want to feel like you're not in control of your surroundings.
Nature or nurture? Conservatives Big on Fear, Brain Study Finds
Fear does not equate cowardice, but it can describe a gut reaction to the unknown.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

I don't know if it's a fear of cities, I think it's more just a dislike of outsiders. I just had a job interview last week, and one of the first things the interviewer said to me was they reached out to me for an interview because I was from a small town and shared their values... they didn't want to hire someone from a big city who might be "different".

That's just scary.

When I first moved to a SW town in AZ it was a culture shock how retail employees behaved. They were more interested in themselves then the customers. You could hear their whole life story waiting in line as they conversed with each other.

If you're from Los Angeles they practically hire you on the spot here. Because they know how competitive the LA job market is. They know you will value your job.

I don't like everyone being up in everyone's business.

It is funny... I grew up on the "enlightened"coast... saw more racism there and up north in the big city where my family came from then I ever did in 20 years living in middle america.

I was an outcast in my high school because if I saw an attractive woman I would ask her out... did not care about skin color or social standing.

Since moving to rural oklahoma I have seen more interracial families in that 10 years than I ever saw anywhere else...

I stopped reading the article when he made his snide comment about rural america lives in a bubble and does not want anyone else to tell them what to do... personally I look at that as an independent mindset... a better way of life than the group think I see with city folks.

But more to the point... try and point out some problems with city living and I usually get told I dont understand because I do not live there (I have.. I did not like it, I do not like large crowds they stress me out) ... yet ask them why they do not move to the country and give it a try... and the list of excuses is longer than I am tall... the hypocrisy from the "enlightened" coast is huge.

I have seen good old boy rednecks insist on stopping to help people stuck on the side of the road... they refuse any compensation (and do not seem to care about skin color) just want to help, and the "enlightened" coastal folks insist on painting them all with the wide brush of racist... yet the same "enlightened" people refuse to look at the racist rambling from their own side of the aisle.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

I don't know if it's a fear of cities, I think it's more just a dislike of outsiders. I just had a job interview last week, and one of the first things the interviewer said to me was they reached out to me for an interview because I was from a small town and shared their values... they didn't want to hire someone from a big city who might be "different".

Nature or nurture? Conservatives Big on Fear, Brain Study Finds

Great! I needed a theme for my Free Thinkers meeting next week 😁

I've been fascinated with brain scans for quite some time. The "new" science.

It seems we are born who we are more then would have been previously thought.

But, it's also known the brain learns and grows in areas stimulated.

Is it like an inherited survival skill for the environment of the species? Just like animals in the wild seem to inherent certain behaviors to ensure their survival.

OK, this is starting to sound like it's own separate thread. Gotta pull it back.

Anyway, I fight with my own brain on what is, what I feel is right, how I want things to be, often in contrast with my natural brain thought.

I was raised as a free thinker. I was not raised with a specific life style. I do wonder if I was, would I still be who I am. Would I embrace my conservative side or fight it?

originally posted by: Irishhaf
It is funny... I grew up on the "enlightened"coast... saw more racism there and up north in the big city where my family came from then I ever did in 20 years living in middle america.

I was an outcast in my high school because if I saw an attractive woman I would ask her out... did not care about skin color or social standing.

Since moving to rural oklahoma I have seen more interracial families in that 10 years than I ever saw anywhere else...

The CA coast alone is 840 miles long. Interesting you put all that into a bubble, but claim the area you're in now isn't.

CA is very diverse, even the coast. (I know you said north and did not specify which state).

Mixed race dating has become more acceptable over time. I'd say evolving over time has more to do with that then location.

I've had people stop and help me with my car in Los Angeles.

I find it interesting that those (overall) of higher learning in major cities tend to be more open to free thinking, have fewer children, and lean away from "role play".

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

I grew up and live in rural, white America. While his perspective is simplistic and his language is loaded with unnecessary (and even counter productive) contempt and derision, he's not wrong.

a reply to: Annee

Define high learning for me?

one big difference I have noticed is that in middle america a big part of it is learned (done the work) knowledge where east and west coast tend to lean towards book learning...

If you are a farmer or a rancher in a lot of cases what you were taught from family, or learned through doing is more effective than school knowledge... middle america is a lot of farm and ranch land. even with that said there are a number of quite good colleges in middle america as well, lot of folks I have met have degrees... unfortunately with the huge amount of degree's out there now it really does not say much if someone has a degree... I think I was told a BS is now the equivalent of a High school diploma.... seems like we have lost of what higher education is supposed to mean.

also I never said california, my experience has been both coasts have an irrational opinion of middle america, some of the most open and free thinking people I have ever met in my life were born and raised coonas cajuns.. were you willing to work hard.. if the answer was yes the rest they really did not care about... one of the reasons I married into a family from that region.

I do find it amusing you want to point out to me that I should not put all of california in a bubble... but you on some occasions and many other left leaners I know will routinely put the entire middle america region into a bubble...

eta: Yes there are people in the middle of the country that fight change tooth and nail... that does not make them bad people, and does not make them racist. the left is far from clean in the living in a bubble syndrome.

I appreciate you illustrating my point.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

I grew up in the absolute sticks. I went to college in a fairly small city of less than 100,000. My first job was in the outskirts of Tucson, AZ, and I was able to live out in the boonies there, avoiding the city proper for my entire stay in AZ. I then took a job in Seattle. I lived in a little farm community an hour outside of Seattle, but I worked in downtown. I've never experienced a place where it was utterly impossible to achieve a private spot, people everywhere, yet at the same time felt utterly and totally alone. It was like being adrift in a sea of people. Not at all an enjoyable experience. I've stayed in Alaska ever since and won't be leaving here again.

I can go out into the wilderness for a couple of weeks and not see another soul and still never feel the depth and sadness of absolute loneliness I feel in major cities. There's something badly wrong there... something mankind needs is missing in those overpopulated hells. I feel sorry for people who live there, but dammit I'm glad to not see many of them flocking to the rural environment looking to leave their concrete prisons and spiritual deathtraps. Simply put, we really don't want or need them in rural America.