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Donald Trump has just directly accused Obama of wiretapping Trump residence.

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posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 02:50 PM
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originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: GuidedKill

originally posted by: Kryties
a reply to: GuidedKill

Sorry, I'm not biting.



Ok I'll try it this way....Has President Trump or members of his organization been under the investigation by the FBI for possible collusion with the Russians since July 2016??

My next question is who was President during the year of 2016??

My next question....do you think presidents are informed about intelligence indicating an attack on the US or collusion of it's citizens with foreign governments to say, over throw elections?


I do not understand what the point is of those questions.

Clearly, the investigation began under Obama's presidency. But I'm not sure why that matters. Comey specifically stated that a president cannot order such surveillance.

Are we still trying to assert that this was an act by Obama against a political opponent, even though the IC confirmed today that there was an investigation taking place...which means there are legitimate reasons for doing so?


The point of the questions is to show that Trump and or people of his organization were in fact spied on. I don't think President Trump stated he was illegally wire tapped just that he was wire tapped period, and that wire tapping was done while President Obama was still in office. I mean is this not a fact now??

The last part was merely pointing out that this would have all been told to President Obama in his general intelligence briefings...To say it wouldn't have been is just naïve...




posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 02:54 PM
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a reply to: GuidedKill

No. It's not fact.


What Trump said was, "just found out that Obama "wiretapped" my phones".


It is so far from fact, that it boggles the mind. You seem to want to break things down into it's simpler forms which you can comprehend, but that is not terribly helpful as this is a complex situation needing a complex understanding and eventually a complex solution.



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 02:54 PM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: UKTruth



I think they were perfectly happy with that part and probably knew anyway that it was going to be mentioned, unless you actually believe that Jeff Sessions authorised Comey to reveal it and Trump was not in the loop?


Of course they knew. That is why Gowdy was prepared to change the focus to the leaks.



We were told today that the Obama Administration were running counter intelligence operations that included members of the Trump campaign team


I did not get to catch the entire hearing in it's entirety. Can you provide a quote from the hearing on that?



As yet the only crime we know of remains that Flynn was spied on and the unmasked details of one of his conversations was leaked to the press. The criminal who did that is still at large and as yet unidentified.


I know. That is now the new focus. You guys follow suit very well.

It seems we cannot take a moment to realize that a specific narrative, one in which the Russia aspect was considered to be "fake news", has been completely trashed.


The Russia narrative of collusion being fake news has not been trashed. In fact the fake news has had to be walked back.. Senator Coomes for example. The reporting has been about the 'fire'. Lot's of insinuation and theory to drive a narrative. No evidence. Today was no different. I was amazed to hear about Rex Tillerson's bike rides in the country with his Russian friend years ago being linked to claims of collusion.





You can bet that Sessions and Trump had reviewed the exact words he spoke.



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 02:57 PM
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originally posted by: alphabetaone
a reply to: GuidedKill

No. It's not fact.


What Trump said was, "just found out that Obama "wiretapped" my phones".


It is so far from fact, that it boggles the mind. You seem to want to break things down into it's simpler forms which you can comprehend, but that is not terribly helpful as this is a complex situation needing a complex understanding and eventually a complex solution.



Is the President the Executive Chief? Is he in charge of all aspects of the Gov?? Does the FBI, NSA, CIA work at the will and direction of the President?

If that is correct and I believe it is...President Trump and or his associates were wire tapped on Obama's watch period...How do you not get that??

IS the President the Executive chief and in charge of the Gov or not?? Maybe we should state there then...



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 02:57 PM
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a reply to: GuidedKill



The point of the questions is to show that Trump and or people of his organization were in fact spied on.


I did not hear anyone say that Trump was being spied on. It appears members of his campaign were caught being in communication with individuals that were under surveillance and it provided enough concern that it warranted further investigation.



I don't think President Trump stated he was illegally wire tapped just that he was wire tapped period, and that wire tapping was done while President Obama was still in office. I mean is this not a fact now??


Trump said "Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory". He specifically accused the president of doing it. As we learned today, the president does not have that authority. So no. It's not a fact.



The last part was merely pointing out that this would have all been told to President Obama in his general intelligence briefings...To say it wouldn't have been is just naïve...


I'm sure he knew about it. He was the president. I see nothing wrong with that. Are you asserting that Obama somehow used that knowledge for some sort of political advantage?



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 02:59 PM
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originally posted by: alphabetaone
a reply to: GuidedKill

No. It's not fact.


What Trump said was, "just found out that Obama "wiretapped" my phones".


It is so far from fact, that it boggles the mind. You seem to want to break things down into it's simpler forms which you can comprehend, but that is not terribly helpful as this is a complex situation needing a complex understanding and eventually a complex solution.



You still seem to be hung up on proving Trump lied and are missing the big picture.

There has been a law broken you know. I rather suspect Trump's language was not crafted and indeed he has since clarified that; a) by Obama he was referring to the Obama administration and b) by wiretapping he was referring to broad surveillance.

Now, you could say, probably with much reason, that he only clarified because he knew he hit his keyboard without thinking at 3am, but even if we accept that, then the big picture is STILL that there was surveillance of Trump associates and possibly Trump, and a law broken by a criminal(s) still at large and potentially able to leak more national security information.

Finding a criminal, potentially still inside the govt with access to intelligence information, trumps your need for self satisfaction on whether Trump lied on his tweet.

edit on 20/3/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:03 PM
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a reply to: UKTruth



The Russia narrative of collusion being fake news has not been trashed.


That is not what I said. I said the entire idea of Russia being involved, in any manner, was considered "fake news" by many.

Collusion is a more specific charge and I did not mention collusion.

The rest of your post is drivel.

Also, you passed over an important question I asked in that post.



I did not get to catch the entire hearing in it's entirety. Can you provide a quote from the hearing on that?


You made a specific claim. Could you please provide the requested quote/evidence?



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:06 PM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: GuidedKill



The point of the questions is to show that Trump and or people of his organization were in fact spied on.


I did not hear anyone say that Trump was being spied on. It appears members of his campaign were caught being in communication with individuals that were under surveillance and it provided enough concern that it warranted further investigation.



I don't think President Trump stated he was illegally wire tapped just that he was wire tapped period, and that wire tapping was done while President Obama was still in office. I mean is this not a fact now??


Trump said "Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory". He specifically accused the president of doing it. As we learned today, the president does not have that authority. So no. It's not a fact.



The last part was merely pointing out that this would have all been told to President Obama in his general intelligence briefings...To say it wouldn't have been is just naïve...


I'm sure he knew about it. He was the president. I see nothing wrong with that. Are you asserting that Obama somehow used that knowledge for some sort of political advantage?


Comey made it clear that Trump associates were being spied on, unless you think that 8 months worth of counter intelligence including looking for any cooperation between Trump associates and Russia did not include any electronic surveillance?

There is no claim that it was illegal, but Trump associates were being spied on during the campaign.

That leaves two remaining questions:
1) was there any collusion - no evidence yet
2) who is the criminal who leaked the information (or criminals) - we don;t know who they are yet.



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:09 PM
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originally posted by: GuidedKill

originally posted by: alphabetaone
a reply to: GuidedKill

No. It's not fact.


What Trump said was, "just found out that Obama "wiretapped" my phones".


It is so far from fact, that it boggles the mind. You seem to want to break things down into it's simpler forms which you can comprehend, but that is not terribly helpful as this is a complex situation needing a complex understanding and eventually a complex solution.



Is the President the Executive Chief? Is he in charge of all aspects of the Gov?? Does the FBI, NSA, CIA work at the will and direction of the President?

If that is correct and I believe it is...President Trump and or his associates were wire tapped on Obama's watch period...How do you not get that??

IS the President the Executive chief and in charge of the Gov or not?? Maybe we should state there then...


None of that matters.

There is a level of clearance TS/SCI - Top Secret / Security Compartmented Intelligence that even the President cannot obtain. For all intents and purposes the President SHOULD be able to be aware of anything his subordinates are aware of, but there are things that even the President is constrained by a "need to know". In this case, he simply did not need to know unless he needed to take some further action, which he did not.

If your question is "does the buck stop with the President", then the answer is yes. But if your question is "does the President micromanage every aspect of every department, keep tabs on them all, and allow not a single level of autonomy with the respective department directors", then the answer is resoundingly no.

That, is how I don't get "that".



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:10 PM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: GuidedKill



The point of the questions is to show that Trump and or people of his organization were in fact spied on.


I did not hear anyone say that Trump was being spied on. It appears members of his campaign were caught being in communication with individuals that were under surveillance and it provided enough concern that it warranted further investigation.



I don't think President Trump stated he was illegally wire tapped just that he was wire tapped period, and that wire tapping was done while President Obama was still in office. I mean is this not a fact now??


Trump said "Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory". He specifically accused the president of doing it. As we learned today, the president does not have that authority. So no. It's not a fact.



The last part was merely pointing out that this would have all been told to President Obama in his general intelligence briefings...To say it wouldn't have been is just naïve...


I'm sure he knew about it. He was the president. I see nothing wrong with that. Are you asserting that Obama somehow used that knowledge for some sort of political advantage?


Sorry i'm not going to take the time to cut out each quote however I will respond to each question.

1. By the sheer nature of investigations President Trumps associates would not and could not be investigated without that moving to an eventual investigation President Trump himself....No if someone would say we have looked into his people and will get to him but haven't yet I would take that. But to say you are or have looked into his organization but didn't look at him at all???? If you buy that I have a bunch of other things for sale too!!!

2. I don't expect you to read 300+ pages of this thread but I already said I don't think Obama "ordered" the surveillance per say but he did know about it and it started on his watch so Trump was correct In his assertion "Obama tapped my phone" as the buck stops with the commander in chief does it not??

3. You are the one implying Obama used that info to effect some change and I agree with you...I don't think the sheer number of leaks post a losing election for Obama/Hillary and their party and are a coincidence, just like I don't think the Russians hacking the DNC to expose Hillary are a coincidence...There is no doubt in my mind the Russians hated Hillary, I mean who doesn't?? lol But to imply Donald Trump worked with the Russians is a little much without evidence.....Kind of like the evidence provided today by Comey.....Confirming the claim that Trump was tapped while Obama was in office

THAT IS A FACT is it not?



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:10 PM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: UKTruth



The Russia narrative of collusion being fake news has not been trashed.


That is not what I said. I said the entire idea of Russia being involved, in any manner, was considered "fake news" by many.

Collusion is a more specific charge and I did not mention collusion.

The rest of your post is drivel.

Also, you passed over an important question I asked in that post.



I did not get to catch the entire hearing in it's entirety. Can you provide a quote from the hearing on that?


You made a specific claim. Could you please provide the requested quote/evidence?


/facepalm.
Try actually watching the video I searched for and linked for you. Jeez.

As for drivel.. sorry but the truth is that Democrats have indeed walked back their claims of collusion.
The only drivel is you trying to separate out the Russian hacking and the collusion... They have been intertwined in the fake news narrative for months.

Also worth pointing out we are yet to see a single shred of evidence even for the Russian hack of the DNC. The intelligence agencies 'high confidence' doesn't cut it, given all their previous lies.
edit on 20/3/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:10 PM
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a reply to: introvert

Your wrong here on several points.

You said "warranted further investigation"

originally posted by: introvert
I did not hear anyone say that Trump was being spied on. It appears members of his campaign were caught being in communication with individuals that were under surveillance and it provided enough concern that it warranted further investigation.


How was that done then, or was that conjecture on your part?


edit on 20-3-2017 by burntheships because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:11 PM
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a reply to: Sublimecraft

Not fake News, more of an Obama breaker, but really this is just a reflection of SOP within the IC/14 eye's community.

Anyone thinking that internal targeting of state reps for adversarial surveillance is far fetched, is simply living in a very "SAFE" yet fictitious environment.




posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:15 PM
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originally posted by: UKTruth

You still seem to be hung up on proving Trump lied and are missing the big picture.



Of course I'm hung up on the fact that he lied. No, I'm not missing a thing




There has been a law broken you know.


and....there is an ongoing investigation.



I rather suspect Trump's language was not crafted and indeed he has since clarified that; a) by Obama he was referring to the Obama administration and b) by wiretapping he was referring to broad surveillance.


LOL. That is subjective depending on whom it is one chooses to believe. With Trump's record, I find any of those clarifications to be dubious at best, and just outright stupid at worst.




Now, you could say, probably with much reason, that he only clarified because he knew he hit his keyboard without thinking at 3am, but even if we accept that, then the big picture is STILL that there was surveillance of Trump associates and possibly Trump, and a law broken by a criminal(s) still at large and potentially able to leak more national security information.

Finding a criminal, potentially still inside the govt with access to intelligence information, trumps your need for self satisfaction on whether Trump lied on his tweet.


All of our founding fathers were criminals too. Until they revolted against the British monarchy and formed the United States, then they were heroes and patriots. If Trump actually DID agree to relax sanctions against Russia with the agreement that Russia help influence the election, honestly I could care less if someone committed a crime to glean that information.



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:17 PM
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originally posted by: alphabetaone

originally posted by: GuidedKill

originally posted by: alphabetaone
a reply to: GuidedKill

No. It's not fact.


What Trump said was, "just found out that Obama "wiretapped" my phones".


It is so far from fact, that it boggles the mind. You seem to want to break things down into it's simpler forms which you can comprehend, but that is not terribly helpful as this is a complex situation needing a complex understanding and eventually a complex solution.



Is the President the Executive Chief? Is he in charge of all aspects of the Gov?? Does the FBI, NSA, CIA work at the will and direction of the President?

If that is correct and I believe it is...President Trump and or his associates were wire tapped on Obama's watch period...How do you not get that??

IS the President the Executive chief and in charge of the Gov or not?? Maybe we should state there then...


None of that matters.

There is a level of clearance TS/SCI - Top Secret / Security Compartmented Intelligence that even the President cannot obtain. For all intents and purposes the President SHOULD be able to be aware of anything his subordinates are aware of, but there are things that even the President is constrained by a "need to know". In this case, he simply did not need to know unless he needed to take some further action, which he did not.

If your question is "does the buck stop with the President", then the answer is yes. But if your question is "does the President micromanage every aspect of every department, keep tabs on them all, and allow not a single level of autonomy with the respective department directors", then the answer is resoundingly no.

That, is how I don't get "that".


You're correct in one aspect...I'm sure the president wouldn't micro manage all departments and wouldn't be abreast to all issues even small ones.....But ones so important to national security like taking over elections and possible attacks on the US gov and it fair elections as the MSM puts it?!?!?!

If he wasn't involved or made aware of such a terrible attacks or acts of war as some Dems put it today well.....we have a much worse problem with a past president who allowed an attack on the US with no retaliation...Matter of fact if that is the case Obama's complacency is almost treasonous...



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:17 PM
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a reply to: UKTruth

My apologies. I misunderstood what you had posted in that first post I responded to.



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:18 PM
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originally posted by: alphabetaone

originally posted by: UKTruth

You still seem to be hung up on proving Trump lied and are missing the big picture.



Of course I'm hung up on the fact that he lied. No, I'm not missing a thing




There has been a law broken you know.


and....there is an ongoing investigation.



I rather suspect Trump's language was not crafted and indeed he has since clarified that; a) by Obama he was referring to the Obama administration and b) by wiretapping he was referring to broad surveillance.


LOL. That is subjective depending on whom it is one chooses to believe. With Trump's record, I find any of those clarifications to be dubious at best, and just outright stupid at worst.




Now, you could say, probably with much reason, that he only clarified because he knew he hit his keyboard without thinking at 3am, but even if we accept that, then the big picture is STILL that there was surveillance of Trump associates and possibly Trump, and a law broken by a criminal(s) still at large and potentially able to leak more national security information.

Finding a criminal, potentially still inside the govt with access to intelligence information, trumps your need for self satisfaction on whether Trump lied on his tweet.


All of our founding fathers were criminals too. Until they revolted against the British monarchy and formed the United States, then they were heroes and patriots. If Trump actually DID agree to relax sanctions against Russia with the agreement that Russia help influence the election, honestly I could care less if someone committed a crime to glean that information.


You just confirmed that your self satisfaction on a tweet being a lie is your primary concern, in fact only concern it seems, whilst laws are being broken.

At least we know you don't have any perspective on what is important and are driven purely by political points scoring.



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:18 PM
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Just Heard: President Trump is not withdrawing the Wiretap claim. He has INDEPENDENT people investigating the evidence. (Rich guys use private investigative firms. Private is more efficient than government, occasionally. ;-)



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:19 PM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: UKTruth

My apologies. I misunderstood what you had posted in that first post I responded to.


No worries.



posted on Mar, 20 2017 @ 03:19 PM
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originally posted by: carewemust
Just Heard: President Trump is not withdrawing the Wiretap claim. He has INDEPENDENT people investigating the evidence. (Rich guys use private investigative firms. Private is more efficient than government, occasionally. ;-)


WOW.
Source?
Can he even do that? He either has to be using tax payer money or his own.. are either legal?
edit on 20/3/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)




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