Hebrews9;- The two sanctuaries

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
See my "edit again" in the post above.

I think my explanation is a closer match to the Old Testament meaning.

Also, the two things are symbolic of 2 heavenly things

No, I think the point is that one is symbolic of earthly things, and the other is symbolic of heavenly things.
That is rather the point of what the writer has been saying. There is a heavenly "original", and an earthly "copy" (which is inferior).
The key to understanding this chapter is to examine what the writer says and draw our interpretation from that, rather than coming up with ideas of our own first and trying to force them onto the text.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Most of my understandings are my own interpretations of Biblical text and of reality itself - I rarely refer to exegesis text or others and i think that's what you're seeing: you rely heavily on preachers and exegesis text rather than God. (no offense.)

Tell me this doesn't say that Father gets his purpose from the Spirit:

Ephesians 1:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

According to the purpose of him or after the council of his own will.

Then add to that all the other scripture: how you can deny the son and father but not the Spirit, how God is a spirit, etc.

Then add in hierarchy and all the other stuff, like how God is the God of Truth, and so he can't be just making it up: it has to be based on the truth of his will or it's just make believe.

All of that should form a picture of the circles, and then reality (the spoken Word) should confirm it.

Edit: Even our own behavior is in their likeness: [Our words are of [our measurement of [our will] to translate] our words]
Son is image of the translator (Father) who is himself the measurer of the Spirit.

Job 38:
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

What's he measuring out, you think?

Father knew us before the foundation of the world because he sees into the Spirit and Father has translated us into the kingdom of his Son from the Spirit.

Malachi 2:
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

1 Peter 1:
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The Bible says it over and over.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
Most of my understandings are my own interpretations of Biblical text and of reality itself - I rarely refer to exegesis text or others and i think that's what you're seeing: you rely heavily on preachers and exegesis text rather than God. (no offense.)

I believe relying on the text is the best way of relying upon God. Your approach creates the danger that you are relying on your own imagination.

The rest of your post is going beyond the text of Hebrews, which is the object of the exercise.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Rely on exegesis texts, you mean? If God isn't letting you hear then I guess you have to. I assure you, though, I am praying before I interpret most anything, and the suspicions are gleaned by genuine attempts to seek after God. Mostly I pray when I can't understand something and then from there I just follow where the answers lead.

Yes, I am going beyond Hebrews 9 to understand Hebrews 9, but I'm still on topic: what I've tried to illustrate is that the ark is another "sanctuary" - the things he had placed in it is a testament to his will (the Spirit.)

e.g. The holy of holies is within the first room and the ark of the covenant is within the holy of holies.

i.e. The Son represents the outer circle, Father represents the Holy of Holies, and the Spirit represents the ark - it follows the patterns I listed above by going outside of Hebrews 9.

I knew the pattern should be there but I didn't see it before, and so I asked, but you were like, "wat?"

a reply to: Bleeeeep
The "sanctuary", as far as this chapter is concerned, is the place where sin is dealt with.
There is one that works (the sanctuary in heaven) and one that doesn't (the sanctuary on earth). There is no need for any more. Once again, I appeal to you not to get carried away with your own imagination. That is how people always "wander from the truth".

a reply to: DISRAELI

Except my "imagination" lead to an even clearer picture of what the sacrifice is for and what the sanctuaries are and are for (how we are working together in a hierarchical system for the sanctification of the Spirit.)

All three sanctuaries are an earthy copy of what God is working (the sanctification of the Spirit) within us (the heavenly sanctuaries within us).

Glory requires sanctification, sanctification requires redemption, redemption requires sacrifice, sacrifice requires faith.

But, talking with you did help (working together ftw).

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: KansasGirl
I've never understood why blood must be offered, to be saved, or to commune with God. Why must there be anything given? And why blood? I understand it represents life, but so why must life be given to be saved/commune? What does the taking of a life have to do with communing with God? What does that accomplish? And, why an animal? What does an animal being killed have to do with being saved or communing with God??

What are the roots of this sacrifice business? I was raised in a Christian home and am pretty familiar with the bible, old and new testaments. But this blood sacrifice has NEVER made sense to me.

(Ideally, you should be ignoring the off-topic posting)

The next chapter tackles this question, and comes a little closer to explaining it, quoting the Psalmist;
What God actually wanted was obedience, and that is what Christ gave.

I think of it like this; What God wants from the human race is obedience which amounts to a complete self-offering.
That is what Adam and Eve were denying in the Genesis story. Eating the fruit is a symbol for doing what they want instead of doing what God wants. Their will was turned away from God's will.

Old Testament sacrifice was a symbol of self-offering. "We recognise that we owe you our lives, and here is an animal life as a token of that". That is why it was inadequate for the purpose, because it was only a token. God kept telling them through the prophets that what he wanted was obedience, and all this sacrifice was a waste of time if it was being used as a substitute for obedience. This chapter brings that out again.

So the point of the death of Jesus is that it was the real thing; complete self-offering, obedience even to the point of death if that's where it led.

Our part of the process is self-offering in faith. As Paul tells the Romans, "make your bodies a living sacrifice".

(This is summarising one of my future threads. In fact there is a whole thread series coming up, but not immediately)

Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it! So, it makes sense, this offering business, if as you say, it's a substitute for obedience. I'm not God of course so clearly I can't understand his/her/its motives and needs (does God have needs? It appears so), but the way you explained it, the offering/sacrifice does make sense.

(In regards to your comment about ignoring off-topic posts, I apologize for wandering off topic....there was a good bit of talk of blood sacrifice in your OP, so I didn't even consider that it might be off topic...)

Again, thanks for the explanation!

a reply to: DISRAELI

There are actually 4 parts to the sanctuary.

The courtyard which is a metaphor for the congregation who sit and wait for a savior. They attend church but are not themselves active in the Word.

The outer sanctuary with the table and lapstand. This is the place where one begins to sit with the Word and study the scriptures for oneself. This is the place where the worshiper begins to enter a personal relationship with God, but has not yet received confirmation of the Holy Spirit.

The inner sanctuary, the Holy of Holys, is the place where one finds himself in union with God's will. Access to the Holy of Holys could not come through the Law or rituals. The Holy of Holys was made available to all who would be obedient to Christ who is the Holy Spirit within us.

The 4th part is outside of the gates of the courtyard where those without faith and those who worship demons reside.

You must look at the entirety of the temple from courtyard, to outer sanctuary and then the inner sanctuary. In revelation we get a clearer picture of this and the full understanding of what and who lies outside of the gates.

The sacrifice of Christ was a promise of Grace to all who would repent of their sins, as he even offered forgiveness to those who wrongly had him crucified. It is by accepting Grace and reflecting the Grace of God into the world that one becomes in union with the will of God.

Those who through a virtuous life find themselves in union with God are the ones who have found the inner sanctuary. As the inner sanctuary is only available to those who follow Christ. And to follow Christ is to be obedient to the laws of God, as Jesus was obedient to God.

Grace is the cleanser of the conscious. The forgiveness of sins offered by God to all who would repent and follow the Holy Spirit, which is the voice of Christ, the voice of perfect obedience that lives within all who pursue obedience.

To always choose Love through a virtuous life is obedience.

Anyone who lives a virtuous life in obedience to God's will is now considerd a child of God and has overcome fear and death. They have received the promise of an immortal soul through virtuous unification. They have reached the inner sanctuary, they have been adopted as sons into the kingdom of God.

originally posted by: KansasGirl
(In regards to your comment about ignoring off-topic posts, I apologize for wandering off topic....there was a good bit of talk of blood sacrifice in your OP, so I didn't even consider that it might be off topic...)

Thank you for your response.
No, I wasn't accusing you of going off-topic. But you had, perhaps accidentally, addressed your post to another poster who was very definitely going off-topic. I did not think he should be encouraged.
Your question, on the other hand, was very exactly related to the chapter in hand, which is why I addressed it at such length. It is a difficult issue, and I'm aware that the traditional expressions of it don't make it easier for modern people.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
There are actually 4 parts to the sanctuary.

I was only interested in the parts being discussed by the writer of Hebrews, because they illustrate the points he wants to make.
As I was explaining to Bleeep, the writer is highlighting the contrast between two methods of purification; the earthly method (based on human ideas) which doesn't work, and the heavenly method, provided by God, which does work.
So he draws attention to the two main parts of the original sanctuary in order to use them as a visual metaphor about that contrast.
More elaborate divisions are not his concern.

a reply to: DISRAELI

The two parts are

1. The laws and rituals, found by reading the Word

2. Grace and the Holy Spirit/Jesus Christ, found by following the path of perfect obedience.

The law and rituals cannot cleanse the conscious.

Only by accepting Grace and reflecting Grace, which is an act of both repentance and obedience does one have access to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the foundation of the inner sanctuary. Those who are obedient through faith have their conscious cleansed by Grace.

a reply to: Isurrender73
Yes, that strikes me as a fair summary.
(This writer does not talk much about the Holy Spirit, but Paul fills in the gap)

I think I would add that Christ is the one following the path of perfect obedience, in the first instance. The next chapter brings this out in more detail. It is our faith that connects us to what Christ has done.

a reply to: Isurrender73

Does the arc not represent the Spirit (the will of God)?

Inside it is God's will for us where we failed but the blood (spirit) of Jesus covers it?

Doesn't it represent God's power and authority (control of will)?

I can't see how it's not.

One more: He gives us will and wants back obedient will but what we gave back was sinful and needed to be covered?

I'm trying to figure out what's with the circles within circles: I'm thinking hierarchy obviously, but I feel like he keeps throwing it in my face so I need to know all I can about them (the circles / hierarchy) and even infinity (spectra/continuums).

Okay, I'm done.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
One more: He gives us will and wants back obedient will but what we gave back was sinful and needed to be covered?

The next chapter cuts through the whole problem. He wants obedient will, and JESUS gives the obedient will. That covers our own failure.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I meant:
if statement = true then
ark = spirit sanctuary (sanctification, right?)

life = blood = will = spirit

ark stores will + covered in obedient will = spirit throne

I'm not trying to drag out an argument or anything, it's just that whatever the circles are and whatever the ark really signifies seems extremely important to where I am with God at the moment (and I have been trying to figure out this step for months and months.)

In the big picture: What is going to happen with the ark? Why is it his throne? Is his throne the source of infinity? Is it likened unto the heart of God? (He has placed infinity in our heart.) Is the power of God infinity of infinity, is the Spirit infinity? etc.

Eternity questions, I guess?

a reply to: Bleeeeep

This is what I think is represented by the Ark. I think the contents of the Ark along with the design and position of God between the two cheribum contain an esoteric code.

Spiritual Ark.

Mana - stomach - bread - Word - Jesus Christ

Scroll - Lungs - breath of life - Holy Spirit

2 Stone tablets - Heart - law of Love written on 2 halves of the heart

2 cheribum - 2 halves of one mind - With God in the center of your mind

Staff - backbone - strength from within - Faith to follow Chrsit/Holy Spirit down the narrow path - the path of perfect obedience. Love fulfills the law perfectly.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Isurrender73
Yes, that strikes me as a fair summary.
(This writer does not talk much about the Holy Spirit, but Paul fills in the gap)

I think I would add that Christ is the one following the path of perfect obedience, in the first instance. The next chapter brings this out in more detail. It is our faith that connects us to what Christ has done.

Yes, Christ was the first to follow the path of Love into perfect obedience. We too can be like Christ and follow the narrow path of perfect obedience that he has shown us by obeying the Spirt of Love, Reason and Wisdom within us. The Holy Spirit is perfect, the Holy Spirit is within us, we have freewill to follow the path of Christ.

We can overcome sin by following the path of Christ and break free from the ideology of perpetual sin, Original Sin.

a reply to: Isurrender73

You're thinking pretty close to the same stuff I'm thinking.

Look where I edited my post above while you were probably writing yours.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: Isurrender73

You're thinking pretty close to the same stuff I'm thinking.

Look where I edited my post above while you were probably writing yours.

Infinity is our adoption as sons. Our assurance that cries out Father from within. If we too have become sons by being adopted through obedience to the Holy Spirit we receive the promise of resurrection as sons of God.