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How the fallout from Trump's travel ban is reshaping science

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posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 01:42 PM
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Our company has brought in so many people from India in the last month that Americans are becoming a minority. It's crazy they let go 200 people last year and replaced them with people from India. Glad I'm only in for a year or two..





posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 01:44 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

How many labs does America have in Syria, Somalia and Yemen? Not a lot i'd imagine.

You can still go to Egypt. Literally nothing is stopping you.



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 01:47 PM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: TonyS

I'm pretty damn confident the loss of opportunity for "Biblical archaeologists" and Egyptology won't erode US competitiveness. If I turn out to be wrong, oopsie... but let's be realistic here, we're not talking about travel bans involving cutting edge technological societies or premierly educated populations.


Terrorists around the middle east have been blowing up archaeological history.

And have done more damage to 'science' that a month of Trump.



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 01:55 PM
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originally posted by: neo96

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: TonyS

I'm pretty damn confident the loss of opportunity for "Biblical archaeologists" and Egyptology won't erode US competitiveness. If I turn out to be wrong, oopsie... but let's be realistic here, we're not talking about travel bans involving cutting edge technological societies or premierly educated populations.


Terrorists around the middle east have been blowing up archaeological history.

And have done more damage to 'science' that a month of Trump.


It's all true. Some of the oldest ruins in human history at Mosul, Aleppo and Palmyra were irreparably desecrated by the Islamic State, as well as the "moderate opposition" groups.

In 2010 I actually wanted to go to Syria to see the ruins at Aleppo and Palmyra, impossible now of course. Not many archeological or tourist packages doing those services these days.

The Islamic State has announced it's intention to destroy the Pyramids of Giza if given the opportunity. A fairly common goal shared by practically all Islamists. They're not going to stop there of course. All of Egypt's rich cultural heritage would be systematically destroyed.

The Taliban in the 1990s destroyed dozens of millenia-old Buddhist statues, temples and monuments.

If people honest to God cared about archeology they would praise Trump's efforts to fight Islamist extremists in the Middle East, since they are by far the greatest threat to that particular field.

I dunno what they want him to do exactly. Promote science in Saudi Arabia? Obama tried that, didn't work out too well.



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 02:09 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

I thought that "ban" was put on hold by more than 1 court?
How is there any fallout from something that is not in effect?



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 03:12 PM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Byrd

Curious that we've never heard the same gripes in relation to such places as North Korea, Somalia, decades of travel bans to Iran and Iraq, etc...

The Internet wasn't as widely available then and the bans were rolled out with some preparation. In addition, there WERE protests (letters, etc) about these things... but you probably aren't aware of them if you're not in an industry that's impacted by them.


but by all means, if scientists are in an uproar, let's put national security and common sense on the backburner.


Do a fact check on all attacks in the US (of whatever size you like) since 2001 and count the number done by immigrants versus the number done by US citizens. Identify which nationalities have been responsible for the most attacks... but you also have to count US citizens. I'll be glad to discuss those statistics with you.

And do check on what it takes to actually get approved to come in as a student or researcher. Find out how many background checks they have to pass and what kinds of evidence are being asked for.

I'd like to open a dialogue with you about what specific points in those checks you think are points of failure that represent places for improvement. But first, I would want you to find out what the steps are and the details on what it takes to actually get into America (during the Obama administration, which had a looser policy) so that we can discuss it from an equally informed position.



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 03:17 PM
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originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Well by libral logic then if the USA had free travel to North Korea we would have cured cancer, have warp drive and robot slaves by now


Other way around.

It's because their scientists are restricted and unable to travel that their programs have fallen behind. To some degree their advances rely on spies and hackers to get information to them for a price.

We also saw China fall behind in many areas because of this same sort of thing. Russia as well. Both did reasonably well in military technology because that's where they threw the money but they fell behind in medicine and many other fields.



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 03:21 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

I am #ing overjoyed and ecstatic a bat# crazy despotic country such as North Korea has fallen behind.

Hell you just put a even better argument forward in isolating Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran to stall there weapons programs!



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 03:25 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

You know, these bans harming our nation's enemies and roadblocking their progress isn't an argument that's going to make me change my position. In fact, I think it's simple proof that the bans on visitation of those countries is working and needs expanded.



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 03:27 PM
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originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: crazyewok




I hardly think the world of science will ground to a halt because of a travel ban to 7 insignificant, war torn countrys.
Not only that but I would think that ISIS would put a bigger cramp on scientific archaeology then Trump ever could .


Actually, it's the treasure hunters who do a lot more damage. It's small and it's localized (not as big as knocking over a museum or blowing up buildings) and nobody makes much drama about it (usually... there are times when it's been highlighted) but it's significant. The things that are stolen and damaged are things that can bring tourism and money into these areas that are often struggling.

Yes, I know. Many people reading that will find the reasoning laughable and there's probably no way to explain the drive to preserve this part of human history while we educate people in the area about how to retrieve and investigate and preserve their history. And it's unimportant to many Americans that what we do there also gives these countries a chance to train their own scholars and researchers (many of whom were educated in England, America, or Canada) to lay the foundation for their countries becoming solid research centers and to preserve their own history.



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 03:29 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

I'd hoped you might become curious and look into it further.



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 03:31 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 04:24 PM
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originally posted by: Byrd
Do a fact check on all attacks in the US (of whatever size you like) since 2001 and count the number done by immigrants versus the number done by US citizens. Identify which nationalities have been responsible for the most attacks... but you also have to count US citizens. I'll be glad to discuss those statistics with you.


OK, fair enough. Let's start right here...
bigstory.ap.org...

Just last October, an Iraqi refugee living in Texas pleaded guilty to attempting to provide support to the Islamic State group, accused of taking tactical training and wanting to blow himself up in an act of martyrdom. In November, a Somali refugee injured 11 in a car-and-knife attack at Ohio State University, and he surely would have been arrested had he not been killed by an officer.



All told, Kurzman said, 23 percent of Muslim Americans involved with extremist plots since Sept. 11 had family backgrounds from the seven countries.


cis.org...

A review of information compiled by a Senate committee in 2016 reveals that 72 individuals from the seven countries covered in President Trump's vetting executive order have been convicted in terror cases since the 9/11 attacks. These facts stand in stark contrast to the assertions by the Ninth Circuit judges who have blocked the president's order on the basis that there is no evidence showing a risk to the United States in allowing aliens from these seven terror-associated countries to come in.


They're coming into this country. Our present vetting process has some successes, but also some failures. The only iron clad method of protecting ourselves from this threat is to disallow entrance from countries producing the threats until such time as we can determine a vetting process with a markedly higher success rate.

Personally, I don't believe the ban goes far enough. It should not have stopped at 7 countries. We shouldn't be allowing any travel between the USA and terror producing nations, including Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Jordan, etc.



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 04:26 PM
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originally posted by: Byrd
a reply to: burdman30ott6

I'd hoped you might become curious and look into it further.


I did. Sorry, I grabbed the low hanging fruit of your post to Ewok before tackling the reply that would take more research by me. See above.



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 04:41 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

Lol: Op man you went way out on a limb on that post. As most of the fun stuff you say; has been closed off for a very long time. That being said; the rest of the architecture you could get from google maps. But appreciate the post as i know you must have spent a lot of time figuring out just how too encompass " immigrants into science."

Again Well Done



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 05:31 PM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Byrd
Do a fact check on all attacks in the US (of whatever size you like) since 2001 and count the number done by immigrants versus the number done by US citizens. Identify which nationalities have been responsible for the most attacks... but you also have to count US citizens. I'll be glad to discuss those statistics with you.


OK, fair enough. Let's start right here...

(sources snipped, and quotes for formatting and length... thank you for the links. I think those were well chosen.)

I would point out that your first source also said


The judge, James Robart, was correct in his larger point that the deadliest and most high-profile terrorist attacks on U.S. soil since 9/11 — like the Boston Marathon bombings and the shootings in Orlando, Florida, and San Bernardino, California — were committed either by U.S. citizens or by people from countries other than the seven majority-Muslim nations named in Trump's order.


Which matches the statistics I see around on other sources. Admittedly you and I look at different sites for our material and we are probably hampered by an inconsistent definition of "what, exactly is terror." I'd include incidents like the recent trial in Georgia under the definition of terrorism (the judge and prosecutors and I agree on this.)

Wikipedia has an article about domestic (US) terrorism


They're coming into this country. Our present vetting process has some successes, but also some failures. The only iron clad method of protecting ourselves from this threat is to disallow entrance from countries producing the threats until such time as we can determine a vetting process with a markedly higher success rate.

Personally, I don't believe the ban goes far enough. It should not have stopped at 7 countries. We shouldn't be allowing any travel between the USA and terror producing nations, including Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Jordan, etc.


I realize that we're getting into a values position here where we're likely to agree because I'm a darn uppity liberal and you aren't. While I do think that some places deserve to have their incoming visitors and visa applicants given extreme vetting, I think it's a mistake to go too far.

Your second link shows that the chances of any American being killed by a terrorist are around one-in-three to one-in-ten billion each year. Your chances of dying by firearm assault from a fellow citizen are one-in-356 - a scale of ten million times more likely.

The scientists and engineers are here because 1) American schools were attractive and 2) American businesses can't find qualified Americans for these jobs - I should actually say "American men" because American women are also moving into these fields. They're paid the same as if an American took the position.

I should also add that these are not fields you can get into with a simple high school or two year degree and that they're awfully competitive even if you have a four year degree (my husband got into one of those positions with a Masters' in TWO areas of mathematics ... that's how 'not easy' they are to get into and how 'not easy' it is to find someone for the position.) We generally take the best and brightest and if they don't work out, the universities and labs and companies won't extend their stay (yes, there are exceptions and misuse... but in my experience only the better ones get to stay for any length of time.)

So now (as the article, which I'm afraid a lot of folks didn't read even after I posted around 20 % points out) we are doing even more extreme vetting and the result has not been good. As you may have noticed from recent articles, well-documented people including native-born Americans were detained by various immigration officials. Frankly, their detaining an 80 year old wheelchair-bound grandmother (Mem Fox spoke about this) or a 4 year old child (as we saw here in Dallas during the first few days reaction to the ban) is pretty useless and inhumane.

The poorly thought out policy was blocked by many judges but Trump has promised he'll sign another EO and there's no guarantee that it will be any better.

So how does this affect science and research?

Many have found that once they left (after passing all the vetting and so forth and being model citizens), they can't get back in (you may have read about some of the international researchers denied re-entry.) Now those who would normally have left for a visit to family are afraid to leave.

This has also turned into the international version of the losing scenario of "Prisoner's Dilemma." Other countries are starting to ban US visas - and to top it all off, there are newspaper reports of American citizens being asked to show ID and prove who they are even after getting on board a plane coming home from abroad.

So what if we can't leave America... what if others can't come?

Immediately, very little happens... the loss is only in the hundreds of millions of dollars. In the longer term (more than four years) isolationism drives up expenses. Colleges and universities have smaller pools of money if they don't have foreign students and will lose professors and their research labs. Other nations will offer these same professors the ability to emigrate.

Those professors with research grants are the ones who give the best opportunities and training to our best and brightest students (I'm speaking here based on personal knowledge about what's happening to a friend who's a PhD candidate in one of the biotechnology labs at Texas A&M.) Other grad students are now looking to change to study abroad (where they may be recruited by another country to work there.)

And one more point, since I've seen it talked about here: science and engineering jobs can't be taken over by robots. They're AI proof, too. You can get a robot to run tests for you, but a robot won't notice what's odd or what's wrong (which is what inspires research.) You'd be left with a lot of jobs that could be done by a mechanical thing with the right amount of clever programming... that somebody's going to invent someday.

Because we're a representative Republic, this can't continue for 20 years (which would put us far behind the rest of the world) - but 8 years can do huge amounts of damage as we've seen in other countries.

To me, the 1-in-3-billion risk is not worth the hysteria that's been concocted. You've got a much higher chance of being hit by lightning, or killed in a tornado (which does huge amounts of damage.)

...and... over to you.



edit on 3-3-2017 by Byrd because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 05:32 PM
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a reply to: allprowolfy

Huh?

I was just quoting a news article.

You know... the one I linked there in the OP? Someone else wrote that.



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 05:41 PM
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originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Byrd

I am #ing overjoyed and ecstatic a bat# crazy despotic country such as North Korea has fallen behind.

Hell you just put a even better argument forward in isolating Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran to stall there weapons programs!


That's one of the effects when NATO countries get together and impose sanctions and bans on a country. And because the US has a seat on the Security Council, we wield a pretty big bat when it comes to hampering the ability of other countries to do science and military research when we curb their ability to buy things and lock down travel from certain types of people.

However, you are probably thinking of some different countries. Saudi Arabia does not have a nuclear program or much of a weapons program. Pakistan is the only Muslim nation with nuclear weapons and it's mainly in a state of aggression with India. Iran is just... in sad shape. No nukes and not a lot of tech, either.



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 05:47 PM
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Some people just can't see beyond their own porch.

We're on a rock in the middle of a huge universe.

Isolationism is stupid.



posted on Mar, 3 2017 @ 05:58 PM
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originally posted by: crazyewok
I hardly think the world of science will ground to a halt because of a travel ban to 7 insignificant, war torn countrys.




Yeah, if that's the case, maybe science has to rethink a few things.

Besides, it's all been figured out, hasn't it? Pound out a pyramid.

And it's not like anything of value to study on site is in the US anyway, besides money.

These people can't speak english or eat hot dogs in their countries?

Science sounds weak and pathetic the way Byrd puts it.











 
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