Malaysia says VX nerve agent was used in Kim Jong-nam assassination

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Well said. Very well said.

originally posted by: FredT

If true this is an act of war. They could have wiped out the whole terminal if they were not careful. The US treats nerve agents as WMD's. and I don't see Malaysia sitting still after this revelation.

Against whom by whom? The perpetrators have yet to be identified. Malaysia was just the location. There is no evidence they were involved. Against North Korea? What if North Korea did it? Who had motivation to kill this guy and why? Little Kim is known to kill his relatives on a whim. So what if the US treats this stuff as WMD? As far as we know, the US wasn't involved. This is for Malaysia to investigate and everyone else to speculate. No country is going to war because this guy was killed. It's not like he was Arch Duke Ferdinand. He wasn't that important.

originally posted by: FredT
a reply to: Miracula2

Are you saying that killing -nam was justified because he was underminin -un?

Yes.

a reply to: schuyler

I think it's important to scale a discussion like this both up and down. For example, what if the VX had killed 200 people instead of just Jong Nam? What if it was 1,000? Or, 1,000,000? Would it be different then?

See, that's the thing with WMD's, it's the "M" (i.e. "Mass").

Jong Un had every motivation to off this guy! He is the only remaining heir to Jong Un's rule. In other words, only Jong Un or his direct descendants can now become Head-Clown, nobody else. Jong Nam's importance is relative. Yes, to the US Jong Nam is/was irrelevant because Jong Un is irrelevant on a World scale. However, to Jong Un, this guy was far from irrelevant, from an ascendency perspective. And, he was openly critical of Jong Un and his policies. So right there we have "motive".

The two women detained have connections to NK, and I believe were traveling on NK papers (although I believe this still needs to be confirmed). In any case, despite somewhat shaky diplomatic relations with NK, I don't think Malaysia would be too hasty to throw them under the bus immediately (as they did) if they weren't pretty certain the two actors in detention didn't have solid ties to NK. So, here we have "opportunity".

And lastly, that Malaysia has clearly stated the toxin used was "VX", not sarin or ricin, but actual weaponized VX, this would mean it had to be government sponsored. Plus, only one country on Earth is foolish enough to use VX in a foreign country (for whatever reason), and this is NK. Why? Because, if nothing else, it would tip your hand on capabilities. Only one country, NK, would be crazy enough to do this, and likely the reason is two-fold. One was to kill Jong Nam, and the other was to send a message to the outside world they have weaponized VX. Again, Malaysia would be pretty foolish to throw anyone, let alone a neighbor to the north, under the bus unless they were pretty certain what they had was convincing. The blowback would be unimaginable if they were wrong! So that gives us "method".

Motive, method and opportunity...game, set, match.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: schuyler

I think it's important to scale a discussion like this both up and down. For example, what if the VX had killed 200 people instead of just Jong Nam? What if it was 1,000? Or, 1,000,000? Would it be different then?

But that's not what happened. Imagination is the only limit to speculating on what could have happened, but did not.

Motive, method and opportunity...game, set, match.

Completely agree, which is why this "act of war" rhetoric is meaningless hyperbole. The only thing that will happen here is Malaysia might call in the N. Korea ambassador and say, "Even though we can't prove a damn thing we know you guys did it, and that's not very nice."

originally posted by: schuyler
Against whom by whom? The perpetrators have yet to be identified. Malaysia was just the location. There is no evidence they were involved. Against North Korea?

In this aspect you are correct: The investigation is not complete. But who else would it be? A Malaysian false flag? CIA op gone bad? Ill bet the farm on crazy Kim. Weaponized VX, implies the resources of a nation state

So what if the US treats this stuff as WMD? As far as we know, the US wasn't involved. This is for Malaysia to investigate and everyone else to speculate. No country is going to war because this guy was killed. It's not like he was Arch Duke Ferdinand. He wasn't that important.

Chemical nerve agents (of which VX is) as a WMD under international law. Its not just a US thing. The US's position is that if hit by NBC agents they reserve the right to reply in kind with nuclear WMD's

We are speculating and discussing. Otherwise ATS would be a dull place with funny cat videos

originally posted by: FredT

Chemical nerve agents (of which VX is) as a WMD under international law. Its not just a US thing. The US's position is that if hit by NBC agents they reserve the right to reply in kind with nuclear WMD's

So if N. Korea kills one of its own citizens with something the US says is WMD, we do what, exactly? I'm all for speculating and discussing, but this is taking a topic far beyond what it actually IS, and THAT'S a hallmark of ATS far beyond cat videos into the realm of hyperbole. It's just like the alien picture thread. We go from a dust up on 4chan to Echelon being capable of erasing pics on your personal computer. Good Lord, people, it's just a picture! But you're right. That's what ATS is known for, and that's why it isn't taken seriously.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk


this would mean it had to be government sponsored.

I just did a google search and found a web page describing in detail the procedure for synthesis of sarin and VX nerve agent.

Most complicated piece of equipment was a chemistry reactor. Cheap ones are 200 dollars on Ebay. More complicated ones 1500 dollars.

Using chemicals that are over the counter or contain chemicals that are easily extracted from over the counter products.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

dude thats the craziest # i think ive ever seen.
that lady just walked right up to him and wrapped his face in less than 2 seconds and was gone.

thats insane man

originally posted by: Miracula2
I just did a google search and found a web page describing in detail the procedure for synthesis of sarin and VX nerve agent.

Sweet I guess anybody can make it no? If its on the net IT MUST BE TRUE.... The Sarin attack by the cult in Tokyo was the end result of a 30 million dollar fab plant and it was imperfect in terms of lethality and delivery.

You can amke all kinds of crap with household chemicals. Heck mix bleach and ammonia and your gonna have some issues. But downloading a how to off the net and making weapons grade VX? Ill use your one liner

originally posted by: Miracula2
I just did a google search and found a web page describing in detail the procedure for synthesis of sarin and VX nerve agent.

Most complicated piece of equipment was a chemistry reactor. Cheap ones are 200 dollars on Ebay. More complicated ones 1500 dollars.

Using chemicals that are over the counter or contain chemicals that are easily extracted from over the counter products.

What do you mean by "over the counter?" If you mean purchasable at a chemical supply house, that is correct. Consider that seeing the synthetic pathway and running the reactions without killing yourself are two different things. This synthesis requires skills not taught in a college organic chemistry course or even found in a graduate level lab. The reason that the materials are not "pure" is that mixtures with starting material and byproducts work about as well because of the extreme toxicity of the active component. It is just too dangerous to try to separate.

originally posted by: Miracula2

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk


this would mean it had to be government sponsored.

For someone who dislikes Nk's leader you sure seem to be defending him alot.

originally posted by: pteridine

What do you mean by "over the counter?" If you mean purchasable at a chemical supply house, that is correct.

I mean purchasable without a license. The Boston Bombers were from the Caucaus regions if I remember correctly. Not American, and yet purchased materials in the US that aren't regulated.

originally posted by: Miracula2

originally posted by: pteridine

What do you mean by "over the counter?" If you mean purchasable at a chemical supply house, that is correct.

I mean purchasable without a license. The Boston Bombers were from the Caucaus regions if I remember correctly. Not American, and yet purchased materials in the US that aren't regulated.

Yes, but a pressure cooker and black powder (plus nails and ball bearings) can be found at a hardware store in almost any county (except say North Korea) whereas the chemical precursors, equipment, etc is a whole different ball of wax. You cannot walk into a Home Depot and get VX precursors.

originally posted by: Miracula2

originally posted by: pteridine

What do you mean by "over the counter?" If you mean purchasable at a chemical supply house, that is correct.

I mean purchasable without a license. The Boston Bombers were from the Caucaus regions if I remember correctly. Not American, and yet purchased materials in the US that aren't regulated.

Making this is not like cooking methamphetamines in the kitchen. This is far more dangerous to the chef and anyone near the kitchen. A cracked flask or a loose stopper or a pinhole in a glove would end the experiment in a most unpleasant fashion. Purchasing certain of these materials may cause some attention and set off alarms at DHS and some may not be available to private individuals. The synthesis requires a serious laboratory with some specific equipment and strict emission controls with several layers of containment. The most difficult part is not in the synthesis; that is relatively easy. It is what to do with the product after it has been made. Labs with experience at handling such toxins are not commonplace.
My bet is still on a state run secret lab in North Korea.

originally posted by: Miracula2
I just did a google search and found a web page describing in detail the procedure for synthesis of sarin and VX nerve agent.

Most complicated piece of equipment was a chemistry reactor. Cheap ones are 200 dollars on Ebay. More complicated ones 1500 dollars.

Using chemicals that are over the counter or contain chemicals that are easily extracted from over the counter products.

And there are a lot of other organophosphates you can synthesize, too, and you can do any of it with 1930's level lab equipment. Or blistering agents, for that matter.

originally posted by: pteridine
Consider that seeing the synthetic pathway and running the reactions without killing yourself are two different things. This synthesis requires skills not taught in a college organic chemistry course or even found in a graduate level lab.

That's true, too. But a really pissed off post grad with some money to blow could do it.

We once sort of played around with a concept of something like a 3D printer for running dangerous syntheses in small continuous batches away from the house. Something solar powered you could dump reagents into, hit the start switch, and monitor it by internet a mile away. Come back and collect your ill-gotten results in small runs later, something you could hide, and if you lost one or two your entire production capacity wouldn't be compromised.

Grant you, we were looking at running a commonly useful explosive base material, but still, you could adapt it to other products.

originally posted by: FredT
You cannot walk into a Home Depot and get VX precursors.

Sometimes it depends on the synthesis you pick.

But, you'd be surprised what is available to you if you are even slightly clever. They're making this stuff for use by SOMEONE, you just have to be that someone, or appear to be.

OTOH, you also have to be clever and suspicious. During our gedanke project, we went looking for 'where do we get the stuff without being obvious', and it turns out that a lot of it is over the counter, albeit in forms you will have to purify before using. And behold! There were several companies that you see mentioned occasionally here on ATS, oddly enough, who were offering everything you needed for a couple of the more simple syntheses in kit form. They called it something else, but the reagents and even the proportions of the reagents in the kits were...perfect.

Which, given that the person running the company supposedly has contacts in the gubmnt, leads me to believe it's a honey pot. Which is another thing you have to watch out for if you're purchasing things in certain combinations.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: pteridine
Consider that seeing the synthetic pathway and running the reactions without killing yourself are two different things. This synthesis requires skills not taught in a college organic chemistry course or even found in a graduate level lab.

That's true, too. But a really pissed off post grad with some money to blow could do it.

We once sort of played around with a concept of something like a 3D printer for running dangerous syntheses in small continuous batches away from the house. Something solar powered you could dump reagents into, hit the start switch, and monitor it by internet a mile away. Come back and collect your ill-gotten results in small runs later, something you could hide, and if you lost one or two your entire production capacity wouldn't be compromised.

Grant you, we were looking at running a commonly useful explosive base material, but still, you could adapt it to other products.

The synthesis is trivial; it is handling the product that is dangerous. Explosives synthesis is much less dangerous than nerve agents as long as one is careful to control the reaction rate and has a few other simple safety systems ready. Handling the products is not complicated and, if one is making nitro- or nitrate- compounds, the infamous nitro headache [vasodilators] is the result of a little ambient vapor. Not so with VX.
If the automated synthesis goes bad, you would have to wait to collect the goodies lest the collectors also provide evidence of the potency of your product. They may need prophylactic doses of antidotes before any attempt at recovery is made. After successful collection and double layer containment, delivery is the next hurdle. It is easy to imagine how it could be done. As I see it, the problem is between synthesis and delivery and, like the bomb making of the Weather Underground of the 1960's, Darwin may solve the problem.

ETA: I'm still betting on a North Korean state sponsored lab as the source.