It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Time and causality are just an illusion.

page: 1
8
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 04:38 AM
link   
Time is not really a dimension but a modality. Think about it we can move in all 3 spacial dimensions we can measure a meter again and again. But we cannot measure the same second again and again. Even more all measurement of time is done by some kind of movement.

So we measure a movement and call it : Time.


Lost in Hilbertspace.


I know Einstain called time a dimension and that worked out fine but in math every property can be called a dimension. Einstein was right in that time is a dimension from a mathematical point of view but not in my opinion from a physical point of view.

Time is nothing more than the movement of the observer through the 'Hilbertspace'. Every point in that space can resemble an entire universe. If you play games a lot one can also say a 'game state'.

In fact the whole 'flow of time' (isn't that a paradox) is just the movement through the closes points in the 'Hilbertspace'.

That flow results in a branch of reality (or a parallel universe if you like). Within that branch of reality it seems that there is causal relation but in fact there isn't because like in a movie all the frames of the movie are fixed. What really is happening is it that on a metaphysical level souls choose the events closest on the hilbertspace they want to experience and they are limited by staying more or less in a branch.

To sum it up :

On the most fundamental level there is no causality but only the illusion of it.
Time is a movement through adjacent points in a Hilbertspace.




posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 04:55 AM
link   
a reply to: frenchfries

I could be wrong - but I think what you are suggesting is exactly what Einstein was suggesting.

I believe Einstein was attending a funeral once and said something along the lines of "People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion"

I think he also gave the example of space and time being like a series of photographs stacked one on top of the other. We are all falling through the stack of photographs but our position in the next frames is already mapped out.

Everything that is, everything that was and everything that will be exists at the same time - our human experience of the presence blinds us to that reality.

So I guess what I am saying is - you are right, but I think you are actually agreeing with Einstein, not disagreeing with him?



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 05:08 AM
link   
a reply to: Inc_9x


I don't disagree with Einstein that much. But what I meant to say is that there is more than one stack of foto's.

More like branches of a tree. The idea I got from Einsteins interpretation that according him there was one future and one past. If the interpretation is that time is single dimension then there can be only 1 past and future , and that exactly is the point where I disagree.



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 05:24 AM
link   
a reply to: frenchfries

Speed and mass => gravity => time (effect). As seen in time dilation.
No to everything you said.



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 05:24 AM
link   

originally posted by: frenchfries
Time is not really a dimension but a modality. Think about it we can move in all 3 spacial dimensions we can measure a meter again and again.
...


And here is the basic issue with your thinking. You don't move in space only. You are also always moving in time.

You can measure time, as the duration of a periodic process, again and again just fine. That is how clocks work.

If there was no time, there would be no way to define motion.



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 05:30 AM
link   
a reply to: frenchfries

Nonlocality makes time problematical. If entangled particles "simultaneously" change state over vast distances, has information exceeded the speed of light? At the human scale, time is just an organizing principle based on entropy. Mystics have made other claims, but not everyone has shared their experiences.
edit on 23-2-2017 by DJW001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 05:48 AM
link   
a reply to: moebius


And here is the basic issue with your thinking. You don't move in space only. You are also always moving in time.


Why do i 'move' in time what's the reason ?




You can measure time, as the duration of a periodic process


Doesn't duration imply time ? so.. you measure time by time by a movement (time again) in physical reality.

Also it's impossible to measure the same second again and again like I can measure my length again and again.

I really question if clocks measure time (if it exists) as a real physical property.











edit on 2232017 by frenchfries because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 05:48 AM
link   
a reply to: frenchfries




posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 05:58 AM
link   
a reply to: DJW001




has information exceeded the speed of light?


I think light speed is like the maximum speed of mass. Einstein (such a partypooper) said something like no object with mass can exceed the speed of light. Did he say that information couldn't exceed lightspeed ? Well it's kind of wierd if it does because in his theory causality would be reversed.

Well I had my own mystic encounter with time... and as a result I'm moving through realities instead being part of the timestream (whatever that may be)

edit on 2232017 by frenchfries because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 06:03 AM
link   
I have long maintained...

Down one side of the equation you have:
- Length
- Height
- Depth

And, down the other side of the equation you have:
- Strong
- Weak
- Electromagnetism
- Gravity

And, in the middle you have:
- Time

Strangely, you've hit very close to a theory I had many years ago as a Physics student in college, that all eventualities / all outcomes of every situation exist all at the same time.

So, if we use a photograph analogy similar to that of Einstein, imagine for a moment we have an infinite stack of photographic negatives all stacked perfectly upon each other and we pierce this stack not at the top, but at some random angle in the middle, with a perfectly straight needle. Each of these negatives represent every possible outcome which can occur at any given time. The entry and exit points of this axis (the needle) through the stack of negatives represents the 'time-line' of a person's life. Now imagine an infinite number of these same needles penetrating the same stack, all at random differing angles. "Life", or our perception of it, is merely our stepping from one axis to another at a predefined interval.

Realizing this is a rather abstract notion, here would be an example of how this plays out in reality:

Imagine a person crossing a busy city street. As the person steps off the curb, every eventuality of what happens in the next interval of time exists on the next negative. As a city bus rapidly approaches, the person steps from one axis to another (in this case stepping back onto the curb), and the bus passes harmlessly by. The person could have elected to remain on the same axis whereby they stepped off the curb and were struck by the bus (and exited the stack), but instead they stepped onto another axis which takes a different path through the stack of negatives.

Something to consider.



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 06:16 AM
link   
a reply to: Peeple




Speed and mass => gravity => time (effect). As seen in time dilation. No to everything you said.


sniff... yet another big NO from the ATS community...


Speed = meters per second (isn't a second of dimension(math) time )
Mass = Kilograms. (I assume you mean impulse )
Gravity ? what the heck is gravity... well it's a field isn't ? so a field of what ? empty space ? well according to einstein it's bended space in the fourth dimension.. So matter bends space thus slows down time...
BUT WHAT IS TIME
according to einsteins theory it's a seperate dimension.

Tell me do clocks measure the fourth dimension , bended space, or just movement.

and then time ? But hey we started with speed hasn't that the time component in it ?



Well timedilation is like t1=t0/sqrt(1-v²/c²) and has nothing to do with the definition of time itself.
Time dilation formula describes the effect of time at relativistic speed between 2 or more observers.... if v -> 1 (then the squareroot becomes 0) and time stops.


(btw dont take this all too serious)


edit on 2232017 by frenchfries because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 06:25 AM
link   
The properties of light sometimes behave as a wave and other times as a particle. Time is similar in this respect, sometimes behaving as a dimension and other times simply as a measure of an interval.



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 06:34 AM
link   

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
The properties of light sometimes behave as a wave and other times as a particle. Time is similar in this respect, sometimes behaving as a dimension and other times simply as a measure of an interval.


Well I have and had always a big problem with the 'sometimes'. The whole word 'sometimes' doesn't sound that very convincing to me. I one observes a elephant from a rather large distance it might behave like a wave too


However if we come back to the stack of photo's it becomes quite clear. If one measures something inaccurate it becomes a wave and if we measure something accurate it's a particle.

So what you implying is that time is an interval and a dimension ? Could be but then the measurement of time itself is an uncertainty too ? It's like heisenberg on steriods
My opinion is that clocks dont measure time. e.g. the time that is measured by clocks is a different property (just a interval) than the time that einstein talked about.


edit on 2232017 by frenchfries because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 06:50 AM
link   
a reply to: frenchfries

I would argue he was talking about both. Hence my hypothetical 'equation' posted above. And, it is time which throws a monkey-wrench into the whole UFT. That space can be warped by gravity distorts the perception of time from an observer's vantage point. Without this reality, proving a direct mathematical relationship between gravity and electromagnetism would likely be a far easier challenge.



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 06:54 AM
link   
Time is linear... The seconds that have passed are not different than meters behind you as you make forward progression... Seconds that have passed by do not cease to be because a new second emerges... Remember?



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 07:21 AM
link   
a reply to: frenchfries

I think we've had encounters before, you probably know I take barely anything serious.

Speed in this case means rotational speed around a bodys own axis. Simulated gravity, but gravity. (Edit: Seriously don't know why I started rambling about simulated gravity here. Probably because I watched the dragon dock on to the ISS earlier?)
Mass plays a big part in gravity, check out the equation. Lots of m
And gravity bends spacetime, not space. The isolated fourth dimension of time is not spacetime.

The clock is just counting and the 12 months, 7 days things also has nothing to do with time itself. If I take an earth watch to a planet orbiting it's sun much faster, the earth clock would still count at the same speed as back home. It just wouldn't make much sense.

Everything has time in it, how we measure things is if motion is involved relative to time. Always. One could argue that without time motion would be impossible. And vice versa.

So I word it different for you, as seen in the time dilation experiments, time can be manipulated through gravity, which is a product of mass and rotational speed. Causality, remember, there one causes the other and I am not saying that it's definitely the case, but it seems very likely mass makes space and speed makes time.
And in conclusion mass and speed make spacetime.

What it also shows us this time dilation thing is that with v>c, t is negative.


edit on 23-2-2017 by Peeple because: Gee


edit on 23-2-2017 by Peeple because: Oops


edit on 23-2-2017 by Peeple because: Edition



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 07:26 AM
link   
a reply to: 5StarOracle






Time is linear... The seconds that have passed are not different than meters behind you as you make forward progression... S



well time is different to space. I'm not 2 seconds long but 2 meters. Seconds are quite different from meters me guess. Time moves forward (space) ? so time is part of space ?



Seconds that have passed by do not cease to be because a new second emerges... Remember?


Seconds emerge (again a time related term defining time) and after that they are forever (but we cant measure them we can only measure the last second (which is a interval of some kind of movement)? )

Itś just like using a paradox to explain paradoxes.



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 08:00 AM
link   
a reply to: Peeple





I think we've had encounters before, you probably know I take barely anything serious.


ha... me remember I thought I was an alien and you gave me a slap on the head
... welcome.




Speed in this case means rotational speed around a bodys own axis. Simulated gravity,


No no Centripedal force is not the same as gravity not a simulation at all something completely different.



The clock is just counting and the 12 months, 7 days things also has nothing to do with time itself.


Indeed what clock is measuring is related to time but not time itself.





Mass plays a big part in gravity, check out the equation. Lots of m And gravity bends spacetime, not space. The isolated fourth dimension of time is not spacetime.


indeed spacetime the 4 dimensional continuum copyright mr Albert Einstein (the man that invented the blackholes in his own theory). I agree but I still beg to differ if time is just a movement from one reality to another....


So I word it different for you, as seen in the time dilation experiments, time can be manipulated through gravity, which is a product of mass and rotational speed.

Well time dilatation experiments are accurate but it only measures the difference between 2 reference frames. I

but I dont understand you dont mean that gravity is a product of mass and rotational speed dont you ? Centripedal force is not gravity I'm sure.

Mass makes space... interesting mindboggling. so without mass no space. The universe is expanding isn't it so ... more mass me guess out of ???... and that means more energy... but than we patch it up with darkmatter dont we... Free energy the miracle of the big bang


Well i'm just kidding but if one really thinks about that stuff than the obvious isn't that obvious anymore.
Somehow i think the modern physics is more or less an arteficial mathematical model tweaked so that it will reflect reality. The problem is that many models can predict the same things. P

It's like the wavepartical duality , I really cant swallow that. I mean I could be a wave according to science well , i'm not ! that's why I like Einstein he at least had the balls to try to tear down his own QM. I see a wave property as a bifurcation of realities... makes more sense that way. There is no flow of time just a flow from one to another reality... Well you like woo dont you ?



What it also shows us this time dilation thing is that with v>c, t is negative.


not negative ... the square root is negative ... imaginary time and space that's complex numbers***t... huh I hate that. And now the eggheads are talking about being imaginary time the real time... could even be quaternions... Maxwell ? Where is oliver heavyside when you need him... uhh my head hurts



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 08:04 AM
link   
a reply to: frenchfries

Ah...But you are how many years old? Feel free to convert that to seconds...

Space and time are dependant on one another and can't exist independently... This is why to travel through time one must be able to alter space...

Space and time are thus interchangeable or the same although as opposite sides of the same coin...

Therefor the length of your life directly coresponds to the distance Earth has traveled during your lifetime... You can argue this if you like... But I could only respond to any such argument with this question... Why do we measure years for example with the movement of the Earth around the Sun?
edit on 23-2-2017 by 5StarOracle because: Word



posted on Feb, 23 2017 @ 08:10 AM
link   


Space and time are thus interchangeable or the same although as opposite sides of the same coin...


so there is no time , just spacetime... hey time doesn't exist as a single property. So clocks measure spacetime or (just movements ) ?




top topics



 
8
<<   2 >>

log in

join