Upcoming 20th anniversary Phoenix Lights - I think Fife Symington lied about seeing craft.

a reply to: Paddyofurniture

The JAL case isnt as solid as I used to think either, and hopefully there is a good explanation for all cases as I think ET visitation leaves us vulnerable, however I dont think that is true.

Some of the better cases
Levelland 57 - Several motorist encounter a glowing sphere that stops their motor, police try to locate the object and also see it.
New Guinea 58 - Father Gill and others wave at the aliens
Westall 66. Daylight sighting of a drone like craft that levitates up on a school campus.
Ravenna 66 - Several police chase ufo through 2 states
Minot AFB B-52 incident 68 - radar confirmation case
Colares 1977 - UFOs burning residents
Tehran 1977 - UFO engaged by Iranian F-4s.
Eupen 89,90 - (start in at 2:20min) start of the Belgium wave

Not to say these are the only valid sightings, just more easily verifiable. Ive seen many documented cases where it is hard to imagine a misidentified UFO other than the witnesses just making the story up.

a reply to: 111DPKING111


Thanks 111DPKING111.

I appreciate your approach. I agree with some of your references especially the Eupen, Belgium wave incident.

With that said I still think a more important aspect of this OP is that a high ranking Government official that was currently holding office as Governor of Arizona has 1000's (700+ reports from Barwood's constituents alone) of reports by Arizona citizens . Ignores them for months until its picked up nationally by USA Today and he's forced to comment. His choice to address the incident is to ridicule those that come forward by pulling the ET costume prank on local TV .

But the worst is his pulling a 180 a decade later , once the incident is established as viable, and saying, " oh ya I was there. I Saw what everyone else saw too! Here is my halfa$$ story of which I put no research or forethought to make sure it jibed with facts of that night. But I'm the ex-governor so just believe me because I'm important and entitled ".

I believe the base populous of those who came forward from that night and just UFOolgists in general are much more intelligent and deserve more credit than a politician playing political games.

a reply to: Paddyofurniture

The really odd thing about this event is that there arent more pictures of it. For something that occurred over such a large population and as slow moving as people claimed it to be, just goes to show you why there isnt more UFO evidence in general. If you search other threads, there is one video showing A-10s flying in formation, but Im not sure that explains everything.


As far as the Governor goes
No one to blame but ourselves, we elect them and then re-elect them often.

The Democratic party put forth one of the more corrupt people in the history of politics, and it was such a foregone conclusion she would win that no one else ran against her(Berny was an outsider like Trump).

Republicans at least had a decent field to choose from, but still, easily the worst candidate among them was nominated. We just seem incapable of electing decent people to office.

The problem isnt people like Fife, its the electorate. Our credit rating as a nation was recently hit, and we pretend like this is no big deal. All those problems in Greece cant possibly happen to us..

Its the same problem with the UFO mystery, apathy, we will wait till the last second when we are on the brink of disaster before the collective whole decides to do something. At least with the UFOs, if there is anything to it, we are at such a disadvantage, it probably doesnt matter.

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
a reply to: Paddyofurniture

The really odd thing about this event is that there arent more pictures of it. For something that occurred over such a large population and as slow moving as people claimed it to be, just goes to show you why there isnt more UFO evidence in general. If you search other threads, there is one video showing A-10s flying in formation, but Im not sure that explains everything.


As far as the Governor goes
No one to blame but ourselves, we elect them and then re-elect them often.

The Democratic party put forth one of the more corrupt people in the history of politics, and it was such a foregone conclusion she would win that no one else ran against her(Berny was an outsider like Trump).

Republicans at least had a decent field to choose from, but still, easily the worst candidate among them was nominated. We just seem incapable of electing decent people to office.

The problem isnt people like Fife, its the electorate. Our credit rating as a nation was recently hit, and we pretend like this is no big deal. All those problems in Greece cant possibly happen to us..

Its the same problem with the UFO mystery, apathy, we will wait till the last second when we are on the brink of disaster before the collective whole decides to do something. At least with the UFOs, if there is anything to it, we are at such a disadvantage, it probably doesnt matter.

I understand your point. I also understand Symington doing what he did in1997. What pi$$$es me off is that this guy is trotted out like a definitive voice of UFOlogy.

He was a paid participant in James Fox's presentation at the International UFO conference one week ago. JUST LAST WEEK. It was the conferences prime time Saturday attraction and Symington was advertised as " James will also share never before seen video of Symington discussing his own Phoenix Lights sighting!"

UFO fans paid upwards of $369 for access to that conference.


My main point of the OP I guess was to call this guy out not so much as what happened in1997, but his current involvement as a paid participant in all things "Phoenix Lights".

My respect for Fox and Kean has dwindled too.

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
a reply to: Paddyofurniture

The JAL case isnt as solid as I used to think either, and hopefully there is a good explanation for all cases as I think ET visitation leaves us vulnerable, however I dont think that is true.

A good explanation for many cases is out there. But you have to have the curiosity and search. Unfortunately, a lot of cases don't have the depth of research as with JAL 1628. People naively listen to or read information by self-proclaimed "experts" like Leslie Kean or Stanton Friedman and base their opinions on what they say. How is basing the strength and believability of a case from only one side a true objective view of what happened? It's not. Then they will post comments on boards like these that case X is a clear-cut example of a UFO. That only spreads misinformation to others that also won't do much in-depth research or investigation and it snowballs. I believe it needs to be called out when seen.

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
a reply to: Paddyofurniture

The JAL case isnt as solid as I used to think either, and hopefully there is a good explanation for all cases as I think ET visitation leaves us vulnerable, however I dont think that is true.

A good explanation for many cases is out there. But you have to have the curiosity and search. Unfortunately, a lot of cases don't have the depth of research as with JAL 1628. People naively listen to or read information by self-proclaimed "experts" like Leslie Kean or Stanton Friedman and base their opinions on what they say. How is basing the strength and believability of a case from only one side a true objective view of what happened? It's not. Then they will post comments on boards like these that case X is a clear-cut example of a UFO. That only spreads misinformation to others that also won't do much in-depth research or investigation and it snowballs. I believe it needs to be called out when seen.

I do remember posting the magic words "in my opinion" when referring to JAL 1628.

But Honestly Ectoplasm8 , if JAL 1628 is such a passion for you, start your own thread. Make an argument. Present your research.

That's what I did. I felt passionate about Fife Symington and how he is portrayed as a figure head of the "Phoenix Lights" , and how those interested in UFOs literally spent their hard earned money last Saturday to hear James Fox present " new information on the Fife Symington sighting". That is bull$&!t to me.

Either do it, or don't do it. Not up to me. But if you don't, don't take pot shots from the cheap seats. It's not a good look.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

A good explanation for many cases is out there. But you have to have the curiosity and search. Unfortunately, a lot of cases don't have the depth of research as with JAL 1628.

I agree, but the reason many cases do not have that depth of research is because we apparently cant handle the truth...

Just looking at the Levelland case I mentioned above, quickly dismissed as ball lightning.

And as I sure you are well aware, its far from the only one

a reply to: fleabit

Well actually, the "lights" commonly in question, aka the flares, is a closed case. The other part, the multiple sightings of a craft is not.

2 separate events on the same day, 1 solved 1 not. The Phoenix lights event is most commonly known by the flares though.

a reply to: Vector99

The last thread, that I am aware of, to really hash through this event is HERE. The OP is convinced both events are explained.

Im not sure the A-10s explain everything(many in the thread think they do), but even so, the supposed large boomerang craft doesnt perform any maneuver that would rule out a military explanation.

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
a reply to: Vector99

The last thread, that I am aware of, to really hash through this event is HERE. The OP is convinced both events are explained.

Im not sure the A-10s explain everything(many in the thread think they do), but even so, the supposed large boomerang craft doesnt perform any maneuver that would rule out a military explanation.

As I posted in that thread, I thought that a formation of planes was a poor excuse. For hours, a flight of planes fooled everyone who saw them? They were heard by none, and some saw the thing at close range.. in that thread, the OP simply ignores testimony of those people. Formations of planes are not that uncommon. Yet no one has reported a flight of planes as a UFO since.. there has been no other sighting like this. His premise was that it was an optical illusion that made people think it was a solid object, but there were those who saw it much closer, and reported it blotting out the stars.

Well actually, the "lights" commonly in question, aka the flares, is a closed case. The other part, the multiple sightings of a craft is not.

2 separate events on the same day, 1 solved 1 not. The Phoenix lights event is most commonly known by the flares though.

Right.. but they are connected. Why would the military drop flares in that configuration in plain site of the city only -that- night. Never before.. never since. Only a couple hours after reports of a V shaped UFO started coming in. The path it was taking was south towards Phoenix. Imo the military all but admitted they knew there was something heading south. And in case it did fly over Phoenix, they had an alibi ready.

I will never buy that thousands of people were unable to identify a flight of planes. They were all duped into thinking it was a giant V shaped craft? Naw..

a reply to: fleabit

To be fair to _Bonez_, he did do a second thread devoted to the first event, but Im with you, something doesnt quite add up.

Maybe something is in the water in Arizona that leads to severe incompetence, but its hard to believe people would be fooled by a large slow moving object for very long.

It would be nice to see someone try to recreate this event and put the theory to the test. Doesnt seem like it would be that hard to duplicate.

Either way, the entire thing has a military feel to it, stealth blimp or A-10s, Im not thinking aliens on this one.

a reply to: Paddyofurniture

I do remember posting the magic words "in my opinion" when referring to JAL 1628.

But Honestly Ectoplasm8 , if JAL 1628 is such a passion for you, start your own thread. Make an argument. Present your research.

"in my opinion the definitive example of almost indisputable UFO existence"
I'm not here to argue JAL 1628. Again, I'm only pointing out using terms like "definitive" and "almost indisputable" to describe this case is wrong and show lack of research. If you want to read a good investigation of the case from the other side, I'll point you to Robert Sheaffers blog HERE. Or better yet, download the 377 page FAA report pdf HERE and read the incident objectively. The answers are in the report.


a reply to: 111DPKING111

I agree, but the reason many cases do not have that depth of research is because we apparently cant handle the truth...

What about the stories by Betty and Barney Hill, Travis Walton, and other alien interaction cases? Where's the government/military cover up involvement in those incidents? That would be far more threatening and can't-handle-the-truth worthy than blurry photos or multiple stories. With all of these claims, irrefutable evidence would most likely come from a regular citizen with all of the claimed alien interactions. Unless people believe UFO/alien encounters are exclusive to government and the governments across the globe are in cahoots with each other.
Let's say all of the evidence in the link you provided was discovered and presented. What would happen? The scientific community would stand up and proclaim UFOs are real and must be piloted by intelligent beings? Or would physical evidence still need to be provided that could freely be studied? Remember, we had astrophysicist J Allen Hynek study this phenomena for 40+ years. Even with his knowledge, resources, personal visits to sites, study of any evidence, and interviews with witnesses, he still had no definitive answer and it remained an unknown to him.

It's like the stories that went on for years of giant squid attacking ships. It was a tale until a portion of one was found and studied in the mid/late 1800's. Giant squid also began to wash ashore on beaches in the late 1800s. The tale now becomes a fact because of physical evidence and scientific study. There's a good reason we rely on science and not UFO/alien fanatics.

It would be nice to see someone try to recreate this event and put the theory to the test. Doesnt seem like it would be that hard to duplicate.

Either way, the entire thing has a military feel to it, stealth blimp or A-10s, Im not thinking aliens on this one.

Recreation would be nice. But there a couple of reasons I don't think aircraft on this, nor black projects / military.

When someone sees something in the sky, the first thing that pops in their head isn't "flying saucer." Well, excepting perhaps a few people from this site.. : ) - but otherwise, I think people assume it's something mundane. Usually it only takes a few seconds to identify whatever it is. In this case, thousands of people looking at it for extended periods (and over several hours) could not identify it. So different lighting levels, seen from different angles, and so on. I'd expect at least half of those people or more could have identified it for what it was.. a flight of planes, if that is what they saw. I can't believe that many people mistook a flight of planes for that many hours, as something else entirely.

Also you'd have to discount all the eyewitnesses who saw it much closer.

As far as a black project / military craft, I doubt that as well. If only because of how they reacted once the sightings started coming in. All calls to the military base were responded with.. they didn't know, there was nothing there that they knew of. Followed by their decision to drop those flares in sight of Phoenix in that vaguely v-shaped pattern. That was obviously done for that purpose.. so that they could be seen in Phoenix. The only time.. and after hundreds of calls about a V shaped craft? Yea.. not a coincidence.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

What about the stories by Betty and Barney Hill, Travis Walton, and other alien interaction cases? Where's the government/military cover up involvement in those incidents?

I honestly havent looked into these abduction cases much, but if someone breaks a story, you cant put the toothpaste back in the tube. Its really academic that the govt does engage in cover ups, we are left to speculate why, but there is no question that it happens.
As in the case of Levelland, they wanted a quick explanation, over and done. Why? Did they know what was shutting off the vehicles or least have a strong suspicion? As far as we know, we still cant duplicate the vehicles shutting off in an non-destructive manner 60 years later. Its simply ridiculous to assume the military had no interest in what happened. If we didnt and still dont possess the technology to do this, how many others explanations other than aliens can you come up with?

Hynek felt information was being withheld from his as well.
From the UFO Experience - Appendix 4, Section A, Paragraph 9

"It must be pointed out that neither of these cases were shown to me by
Blue Book personnel. I happened upon them by accident during one of
my visits as I scanned through material lying on a desk, and not in the files;
I am not permitted to peruse the files themselves. I have access
to the files only when I request a specific case."

See here for some more excerpts

It's like the stories that went on for years of giant squid attacking ships

I think we all agree the giant squid existed before we had absolute proof, despite anyones skepticism. I know it might sound crazy to some, but you can come to reasonable conclusions about a subject without being spoon fed high rez video/pics.

a reply to: 111DPKING111

The really odd thing about this event is that there arent more pictures of it.

Simple explanation for that. It was 1997 and no one had smartphones at the time. It wasn't common to carry a camera with you either.

originally posted by: fleabit
originally posted by: 111DPKING111
...Yet no one has reported a flight of planes as a UFO since.. there has been no other sighting like this.... I will never buy that thousands of people were unable to identify a flight of planes. They were all duped into thinking it was a giant V shaped craft? Naw..

That's 'common sense', until you find case after case after case that exactly that misidentification HAS happened, a formation of bright lights in the sky was perceived by MANY witnesses as a large single object with lights on it -- but it WASN'T.

There is NOTHING 'hypothetical' about human perceptual processes that react to sudden unusual visual stimuli by pulling up past experiences and filling in the gaps -- it's a survival-positive trait that allows crucial fast-reaction in events of lethal hazard or food opportunities, over a million generations of our ancestors. The reality of this trait is persuasively demonstrated in opportunistic double-blind experiments when known stimuli [for example, a swarm of fireballs resulting from a satellite reentry] will result in similar interpretations [a large structured object with lights mounted on it] in startled witnesses across the world, over the decades, with all ranges of cultures and professions and ages.

See www.jamesoberg.com...

[for example, a swarm of fireballs resulting from a satellite reentry]

Except it was not something as anomalous as a swarm of fireballs reentering our atmosphere. It was supposedly a simple formation of planes. A bit of a difference. And I agree a few folks.. heck, even a few dozen folks, mistaking a flight of say, Warthogs, for something else. But not thousands of people. And not for hours. And not when seen up close by eyewitnesses. And not when no one reported sound.

You and others can keep bleating that excuse all you like. I don't buy it for a moment. You yourself.. if you looked up and saw a V shaped set of lights, would your mind immediately drift to "Omg a UFO!"? I doubt it. You would assume it's a flight a planes. And would look for telltale signs of being a flight of planes. As would most reasonable people. And usually after a few moments, most people could absolutely identify something as a plane correctly.

This was not ever identified as a flight of planes. No matter the time, lighting, height of the object, angle of view of witnesses, they all felt it was something other than a flight of planes. And as the pilots of the A10s themselves said.. they don't fly around at cruising altitude with their landing lights on. I guess people saw bright lights that were reflections for hours.. until after dark, when they mistakenly thought the blinking lights of planes were bright white lights.

a reply to: Vector99

I realize no cell phones, but if it really was that large and moving slowly, it should have remained visible for some time. Cameras werent that expensive, and over a such a large population, its surprising to me at least a few people didnt have a camera handy to snap a pic. Maybe there wasnt time to run in and grab a camera, perhaps just too stunned.

@fleabit
_Bonez_ says he has people at the same time and spot seeing planes and seeing the V-wing craft. Not sure anyone reported seeing both. Like you, it seems after staring at it for long enough, anyone would figure out they were just looking at a plane formation.

@Jim
I know there is a similar situation with the Alaska cases that was debunked(I also know not everyone thinks so), but how much correlation can you draw from the two events. How fast were each moving? What was the visibility? How long did they have to look at it?

a reply to: 111DPKING111

but if someone breaks a story, you cant put the toothpaste back in the tube.

Exactly my point. The government has no control over citizens that come forward with alien abductions stories, sightings of UFOs, sightings of landings, any type of alien interactions, or photographs and videos. With many thousands of claims, it's reasonable to assume physical evidence will come from an average citizen, rather than the government. Or in the least, a clear photograph or video. According to MUFON, there are thousands of UFO sightings every year, yet not a single convincing video or photograph? Instead of deflecting to and being paranoid and suspicious of the government, why aren't you suspect that after many decades and many thousands of personal UFO and/or alien sightings, we still don't have convincing visual or physical evidence?

I honestly havent looked into these abduction cases much,

I find it hard to believe, as a member of this forum, you haven't looked into the Hill or Travis Walton abductions much.

Hynek felt information was being withheld from his as well.
.
.
"It must be pointed out that neither of these cases were shown to me by
Blue Book personnel..."

Reread what I wrote please. How did the government withhold information during Hynek's 40 year study he personally conducted through visiting sites, talking with witnesses, or examining any evidence? This is his investigation beyond Blue Book. His conclusion was that he had no conclusion, only more theories.

You seem to be missing my point. I'm not looking for answers that may or may not be hidden in government documents, they may never be disclosed and we'll never know the answer. I'm speaking about something that can be addressed currently and isn't being hidden. The lack of convincing scientific evidence through the history of the phenomenon.

originally posted by: fleabit

[for example, a swarm of fireballs resulting from a satellite reentry]

...

This was not ever identified as a flight of planes. No matter the time, lighting, height of the object, angle of view of witnesses, they all felt it was something other than a flight of planes. And as the pilots of the A10s themselves said.. they don't fly around at cruising altitude with their landing lights on. I guess people saw bright lights that were reflections for hours.. until after dark, when they mistakenly thought the blinking lights of planes were bright white lights.

Please consider that you may be seriously misinformed -- or under-informed -- if you are seriously making this claim.