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The ancient Egyptian Book of Thoth

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posted on Feb, 21 2017 @ 10:21 AM
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originally posted by: Byrd

Haven't read it - I remember that it won several awards but I had gotten so busy that I wasn't attending many science fiction conventions in those years and didn't pick up many new books.


Ah, go grab the Kindle version. It's a good read on many levels. A bit cerebral for some.



Abruptly the idiot echo faded out, leaving only a sound like distant wind, waxing and waning as if heard through a flapping curtain. Romanelli leaned forward again. This wasn’t the sharpening that indicated successful contact, but at least it was something different. “Master?” he said hopefully. Without becoming a voice or seeming to be anything more than the sound of vast emptiness, the distant sussuration began to form words. “Kes ku sekher ser sat,” the void whispered, “tuk kemhu a pet . . .”


Powers, Tim. The Anubis Gates (Ace Science Fiction) (p. 201). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.




posted on Feb, 21 2017 @ 04:57 PM
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originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: Harte


The "Emerald Tablets" (plural) was a fraudulent piece written by Claude Doggins - an acolyte of the fake medium Helena Blavatsky.


H.P. Blavatsky died in 1891, while Claude D. Dodgin, aka; Claude Doggins, aka; Maurice Doreal, was born in 1898.

Dodgin/Doggins/Doreal was not an acolyte of H.P.B., nor was he a member of the Theosophical Society. He studied home-correspondence courses from the Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis (AMORC) and independently read Theosophical Society (T.S.) authors. He borrowed concepts from T.S. literature, thusly; only being a "Theosophist" through borrowed influence.

He established the "Brotherhood of the White Temple" in 1929/1930, which is completely separate, extrinsic, and independent from the Theosophical Society. He then published his; "The Emerald Tablets of Thoth the Atlantean", in 1939.


Maurice Doreal (atlantipedia)

Maurice Doreal and His Brotherhood of the White Temple Awaited the Apocalypse in Colorado (West Word)

Oh.
Sorry. Wrong crackpots.

Doggin's "Brotherhood of the White Temple."
Blavatsky's "Great White Brotherhood."

So, okay, not an acolyte. Merely a copycat.

Harte



posted on Feb, 21 2017 @ 05:05 PM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: Byrd

Haven't read it - I remember that it won several awards but I had gotten so busy that I wasn't attending many science fiction conventions in those years and didn't pick up many new books.


Ah, go grab the Kindle version. It's a good read on many levels. A bit cerebral for some.



Abruptly the idiot echo faded out, leaving only a sound like distant wind, waxing and waning as if heard through a flapping curtain. Romanelli leaned forward again. This wasn’t the sharpening that indicated successful contact, but at least it was something different. “Master?” he said hopefully. Without becoming a voice or seeming to be anything more than the sound of vast emptiness, the distant sussuration began to form words. “Kes ku sekher ser sat,” the void whispered, “tuk kemhu a pet . . .”


Powers, Tim. The Anubis Gates (Ace Science Fiction) (p. 201). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

You can catch Thoth, Set, Anubis, Horus, [I]et al.[/I] doing their thing in Roger Zelazny's "Creatures of Light and Darkness," a book containing, among other hilarities, the "Agnostic's Prayer":

Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen.


Harte



posted on Feb, 21 2017 @ 06:03 PM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: tikbalang

No i couldn't find a full freebie version, it's on Google books here and there seems to be an updated version entitled Conversations in the House of Life



Lame-brained creature that I am, I completely forgot that...

100 AD - there were no Greek rulers. I should have pointed that out in the first response.

The Ptolemys were all Greek and (except for Cleopatra, who (my speculation) might have been the daughter of an Egyptian concubine or third or fourth wife)) could not speak or read Egyptian - nor did they try.

On Cleopatra's death, Egypt fell under Roman rule and was no longer even vaguely Greek. The governors were the Prefects who were members of the Equestrian class but were not nobles.

Alexandria, the Hellenistic center of the area, had always kept the three populations - Greek, Jewish, and Egyptian separate. However, during Roman rule this eventually dissolves int a series of riots Jews and Greeks at each others' throats. Then came the Emperor Caracalla and THEN an earthquake that destroyed much of the city

So the book was written or copied during Roman rule (possibly for Gnostics) and was not intended for Greek rulers/courts, who only thought of Egypt as a source of income - and who weren't in charge of Egypt during the time the book came into being.



posted on Feb, 22 2017 @ 05:15 AM
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a reply to: Byrd

The themes and phrases that the work has in common with the Edfu inscriptions are unique to both and the most likely scenario is that it was compiled as an instructive text relating to the establishment of that institution, in particular relating to the doctrine of the House of Life, which may or may not have existed, perhaps being an ideal abstraction, it is illustrated in the Book of the Faiyum.



Book of Faiyum

It's noteworthy with regards to that also the important role of the Hermopolis Ogdoad and that is a common theme in Ptolemaic works, the Temple of Horus at Edfu was complimentary to that of Hathor at Denderah and both very much concern themselves with the activities of the Ogdoad, it is also the case that in the "Book of Thoth" the goal within the Chamber of KKY is to generate the fiery Ureaus, Wadjet the eye of Re, which is seen everywhere at Denderah

The Light of Denderah

There shouldn't really be any doubt that given the particular emphasis seen at Denderah and Edfu and the themes of literary works of the Ptolemaic period that the Greeks were interested in establishing institutions based in Egyptian tradition which were essentially dedicated to initiatory magic, and it was that initial approach which generated the entire mystery school tradition of the region.

With regards to how Egyptian is all of this the approach is certainly of Greek innovation, but the texts are all thoroughly grounded in Egyptian tradition, it's a question of establishing an emphasis and systemic approach which lends itself to initiatory illumination, the personification of the highest attainment being Horus and Hathor, thus also the basis of Divine right to rule, the unification of the two lands.


edit on Kam22852vAmerica/ChicagoWednesday2228 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2017 @ 11:29 AM
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a reply to: Kantzveldt

Just wondering if you or Byrd are familiar with Ancient Orient and Old Testament Kenneth A. Kitchen work . Its in a pdf for anyone interested in reading it biblicalstudies.org.uk...



posted on Feb, 22 2017 @ 02:57 PM
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originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Kantzveldt

Just wondering if you or Byrd are familiar with Ancient Orient and Old Testament Kenneth A. Kitchen work . Its in a pdf for anyone interested in reading it biblicalstudies.org.uk...


Not familiar with it - Biblical studies is a huge area and beyond one course nearly 50 years ago, I haven't had any real contact with it. I do know that there's a lot of recent developments and I see (peripherally) announcements about some of the finds. But that's about it, honestly.



posted on Feb, 22 2017 @ 05:47 PM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Byrd

The themes and phrases that the work has in common with the Edfu inscriptions are unique to both

Can you give me a link to a reference, here?



and the most likely scenario is that it was compiled as an instructive text relating to the establishment of that institution, in particular relating to the doctrine of the House of Life, which may or may not have existed, perhaps being an ideal abstraction, it is illustrated in the Book of the Faiyum.

This line of exploration does not support any of your ideas - that it's an instruction on "how to be Egyptian", that it's an initiation, that it's meant for the Greek Court. The Book of The Faiyum is a Roman era manuscript with an exact date of 135 AD, long after the Roman rule of Egypt started.


It's noteworthy with regards to that also the important role of the Hermopolis Ogdoad and that is a common theme in Ptolemaic works, the Temple of Horus at Edfu was complimentary to that of Hathor at Denderah and both very much concern themselves with the activities of the Ogdoad, it is also the case that in the "Book of Thoth" the goal within the Chamber of KKY is to generate the fiery Ureaus, Wadjet the eye of Re, which is seen everywhere at Denderah

The Light of Denderah

Not to be unkind, but your sources have failed you here. The first photo is of Cleopatra-not Hathor... and if you'd grabbed more of the image you would see that it says Cleopatra in the text) offering to her son, Caesarion (you can see his name in the hieroglyph below him) as the Uniter of Egypt. And it's not a "serpent entwined with a reed pole" it's Wadjet sitting on top of the lotus (both emblematic of Upper Egypt.) Your sources have led you to misinterpret the third group of photos as well - that's the emblem of Re with Wadjet his protector... and again, continued below with Re-as-Kephra... the text is too dim to read. The next is also misinterpreted; it's Heh (doubled) offering Caesarion (identified by cartouches) "Millions of years" along with power and stability (below) - it's sort of a standard puff propaganda piece of Egyptian pharaohs.

And the sistrums (well known, with many in museum collections) are badly misidentified.

So...that didn't make your point at all, I'm afraid.



There shouldn't really be any doubt that given the particular emphasis seen at Denderah and Edfu and the themes of literary works of the Ptolemaic period that the Greeks were interested in establishing institutions based in Egyptian tradition which were essentially dedicated to initiatory magic, and it was that initial approach which generated the entire mystery school tradition of the region.


If you're basing this on the material you linked to, it is not correlated to the texts that you presented. Greek Mystery Schools spring from the Mystery Cults which were a way that the Greeks used to explain life and death in their world and offer the common people ways to deal with their everyday gods. (see the indroductory pages in Cosmopoulos, Michael B., ed. Greek mysteries: The archaeology of ancient Greek secret cults. Routledge, 2005. - can be found on Google Books)

You might also enjoy this title - Metzger, Bruce M. "Considerations of Methodology in the Study of the Mystery Religions and Early Christianity." Harvard Theological Review 48.01 (1955): 1-20. available here, touches briefly on methodology, mainly centered on Early Christianity


With regards to how Egyptian is all of this the approach is certainly of Greek innovation, but the texts are all thoroughly grounded in Egyptian tradition, it's a question of establishing an emphasis and systemic approach which lends itself to initiatory illumination, the personification of the highest attainment being Horus and Hathor, thus also the basis of Divine right to rule, the unification of the two lands.


... highest attainment... no such concept in Egyptian, and as for Hathor and Horus, well, the correct goddess (if such a concept existed) was actually Isis (cf Cleopatra's presenting herself as Isis and as Demeter when she traveled abroad and Isis within most contexts in Egypt. And Anthony was seen as the new Osiris (source)



posted on Feb, 22 2017 @ 07:15 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

The Book of the Faiyum dates back to the Ptolemaic period, taking the date of the best preserved copy as the date of composition is simply ridiculous, as is saying a representation of Cleopatra wearing the Hathor solar Crown and saying it doesn't represent Hathor, as is saying Greek Mystery Schools spring from the Mystery Cults, as is saying i consider the book of Thoth a guide on How to be an Egyptian , as is pointing out it's actually Wadjet when i said it was Wadjet, as is saying there was no concept of highest attainment in a Solar based religion, as is asking for links and sources i've already provided...ridiculous and tiresome.



posted on Feb, 22 2017 @ 10:36 PM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Byrd

The Book of the Faiyum dates back to the Ptolemaic period, taking the date of the best preserved copy as the date of composition is simply ridiculous, as is saying a representation of Cleopatra wearing the Hathor solar Crown and saying it doesn't represent Hathor,


I doublechecked... okay... it does say "words spoken by Hathor" above Caesarion... however, it's Cleo. She presents herself throughout her reign as Isis reborn.

Here she is again with the horned solar sun and now the feathers of Amun - with Caeserion.


as is saying Greek Mystery Schools spring from the Mystery Cults,
I gave you a source for that.


as is saying i consider the book of Thoth a guide on How to be an Egyptian ,

I went back to your original statement on this thread where you said "... a work of the early Ptolomaic period the primary function of which in my opinion was to instruct Greek scribes in actual Egyptian tradition," Perhaps I misunderstood your statement?


... as is saying there was no concept of highest attainment in a Solar based religion,

The highest attainment was Ma'at - even Re had to bow to Ma'at. Even Thoth himself is described as who reveals Maat and reckons Maat; who loves Maat and gives Maat to the doer of Maat. Now, if you meant Ma'at, then we would agree. But if you meant some hidden mystery religion concept, we will disagree.

See Troche, J., and J. Jacobson. "An exemplar of Ptolemaic egyptian temples." Computer Applications in Archaeology (CAA), Granada, Spain (2010). (PDF link)


as is asking for links and sources i've already provided...ridiculous and tiresome.

Did you? Now, I probably overlooked it but I didn't see a link to pages... as far as I can tell you just posted links and said "trust me" that there are "themes and phrases that the work has in common with the Edfu inscriptions are unique to both."

Jasnow says that some of the documents "reflect the Edfu tradition" (p. 23) but he points out that although he proposes a connection, Edfu is never mentioned (p. 53). He mentions some titles that are unique to both, but that's quite different than having prayers with the same wording or laws with the same wording, etc.



posted on Mar, 7 2017 @ 05:24 AM
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There is interesting evidence that an aspect of practise related to the Demotic Book of Thoth would have related to dream incubation, that is to spend two days within a coffin and on the third to day to rise again while soliciting dreams of an often therapeutic nature, given the association also with Sarapis.


The clearest evidence for this is the ostrakon in which Ḥor reports having spent more than two days in the "house of rest (of) the Ibis" invoking Osorapis and Osormnevis as well as Thoth's divinized ibises, though damage to the text where Ḥor appears to have been describing a dream prevents us from knowing whether he received a dream-oracle from these bull-gods rather than Thoth. Other documents from this archive clearly refer to dream-oracles that Ḥor obtained from Thoth


A religious treatise, however, appears to shed further light on the issues raised by these documents. While there is no reason to conclude that ordinary worshipers could solicit dreams from Thoth in the manner and place that Ḥor did, there is excellent reason to conclude that Ḥor's propensity for engaging in incubation was typical of those serving the god: in one of the unplaced fragments of the Demotic Book of Thoth, reference is made to "the place of dreaming" (s.t rswy), and the context suggests that certain types of priests or cult officials of Thoth would solicit dreams at a specific shrine designated for this purpose.

This passage, along with two related fragments,raises the possibility that divinatory incubation may have been a somewhat widespread feature of Thoth's cult, though one limited to those who, like Ḥor, served the god in an official capacity


Incubation at Saqqara

It's certain that for the adept of Thoth and Seshat this would have involved more than merely sleeping, that the primary purpose would be to sort of take up temporary residence in the realm of the dead in order to consult with the spirits of that realm, that the creation of the such a temporal dislocation would have related to Seshat.



In CT spell 10, Seshat is said to open the portal of the netherworld for the deceased, in which we may understand the ‘portal’ in question to be the successful mastery of ritual under Seshat’s guidance. A similar interpretation can be assumed for phrases such as “your mother Seshat clothes you,” (CT spell 68). Again, when Seshat is invoked to help build a mansion in the netherworld for the deceased (e.g., CT spell 709), one may think at once both of Seshat’s role with respect to sacred buildings, as well as of the role of ritual texts and afterlife literature such as the very Coffin Texts themselves in constructing a dwelling in the netherworld.

A “chamber of darkness” (ê.t-kky) features prominently in the “Book of Thoth,” and Seshat is referred to in this text as well as in inscriptions from Edfu as “Mistress of the rope, foremost one of the chamber of darkness,” possibly referring to Seshat’s role in the ceremony of “stretching the cord.” Alternatively, the epithet might be read as “Mistress of the sustenance of the foremost one of the chamber of darkness.”

Seshat is associated as well in this text with a “ritual of entering the chamber of darkness,”


Seshat



posted on Mar, 7 2017 @ 08:29 PM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
There is interesting evidence that an aspect of practise related to the Demotic Book of Thoth would have related to dream incubation, that is to spend two days within a coffin and on the third to day to rise again while soliciting dreams of an often therapeutic nature, given the association also with Sarapis.



Your source has led you to a few misapprehensions.




The clearest evidence for this is the ostrakon in which Ḥor reports having spent more than two days in the "house of rest (of) the Ibis" invoking Osorapis and Osormnevis as well as Thoth's divinized ibises, though damage to the text where Ḥor appears to have been describing a dream prevents us from knowing whether he received a dream-oracle from these bull-gods rather than Thoth. Other documents from this archive clearly refer to dream-oracles that Ḥor obtained from Thoth

A religious treatise, however, appears to shed further light on the issues raised by these documents. While there is no reason to conclude that ordinary worshipers could solicit dreams from Thoth in the manner and place that Ḥor did, there is excellent reason to conclude that Ḥor's propensity for engaging in incubation was typical of those serving the god: in one of the unplaced fragments of the Demotic Book of Thoth, reference is made to "the place of dreaming" (s.t rswy), and the context suggests that certain types of priests or cult officials of Thoth would solicit dreams at a specific shrine designated for this purpose.



In the first place, "three days" had no particular significance to ancient Egypt nor Romans nor Greeks. In the second place, you have a wrong idea about the shrine. You appear to be thinking about a temple. Shrines, however, are much smaller. No one could possibly sleep inside a shrine.


This passage, along with two related fragments,raises the possibility that divinatory incubation may have been a somewhat widespread feature of Thoth's cult, though one limited to those who, like Ḥor, served the god in an official capacity


Egyptians were quite fond of dream divination and had a number of scrolls on it. Scribal families owned copies and such knowledge was pretty common. Thoth was not necessarily involved; there's no known shrine to Thoth at Dier-el-Medina (where the dream book comes from), for instance.


It's certain that for the adept of Thoth and Seshat this would have involved more than merely sleeping, that the primary purpose would be to sort of take up temporary residence in the realm of the dead in order to consult with the spirits of that realm, that the creation of the such a temporal dislocation would have related to Seshat.


While I can't speak for the Greeks, the Egyptians believed that the dead were actively involved in the lives of their loved ones and that the way to get their help was to write to them, as is seen in many many ostrika examples. They would write and ask for advice and for help.





In CT spell 10, Seshat is said to open the portal of the netherworld for the deceased, in which we may understand the ‘portal’ in question to be the successful mastery of ritual under Seshat’s guidance. A similar interpretation can be assumed for phrases such as “your mother Seshat clothes you,” (CT spell 68). Again, when Seshat is invoked to help build a mansion in the netherworld for the deceased (e.g., CT spell 709), one may think at once both of Seshat’s role with respect to sacred buildings, as well as of the role of ritual texts and afterlife literature such as the very Coffin Texts themselves in constructing a dwelling in the netherworld.

A “chamber of darkness” (ê.t-kky) features prominently in the “Book of Thoth,” and Seshat is referred to in this text as well as in inscriptions from Edfu as “Mistress of the rope, foremost one of the chamber of darkness,” possibly referring to Seshat’s role in the ceremony of “stretching the cord.” Alternatively, the epithet might be read as “Mistress of the sustenance of the foremost one of the chamber of darkness.”

Seshat is associated as well in this text with a “ritual of entering the chamber of darkness,”



Your source here has taken this from ... themselves... and is misinterpreting things to fit their own gnostic ideals.

The Coffin Texts date to Middle Kingdom and later, and are not a continuous book; Spells #10 and #60 came from two different coffins that were not in the same tomb and possibly not even in the same area. Associating them is like picking up two different books, selecting a page in each, and kit-bashing them together to make a statement.

edit on 7-3-2017 by Byrd because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 8 2017 @ 04:49 AM
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a reply to: Byrd

The three day periodic was based on the Wag Festival, a three day death and resurrection festival of Osiris leading into that of Thoth, the Easter narrative took this as it's basis albeit in terms of the Hebrew first month.


Seventeen days after New Year's day, there was also the more somber feast of Wagy, which eventually became associated with the festival of Thoth on the nineteenth day of the year. This event was connected with the mortuary rituals of ancient Egypt and was celebrated by private individuals outside of official religious circles as well as within the precincts of the major temples in Egypt. Our first evidence of this celebration is from the 4th Dynasty, making it one of the oldest in ancient Egypt. The original date of the festival was set according to the lunar basis and this was never discarded. Hence, during the historical period, there were actually two separate Wagy feasts, one set according to the cycle of the moon and a later one firmly placed at day eighteen of the first civil month


There was also mathematical formulae associated with this which the Greeks were familiar with;


The Egyptians have a legend that the end of Osiris's life came on the seventeenth of the month, on which day it is quite evident to the eye that the period of the full moon is over

Because of this the Pythagoreans call this day "the Barrier," and utterly abominate this number. For the number seventeen, coming in between the square sixteen and the oblong rectangle eighteen, which, as it happens, are the only plane figures that have their perimeters equal their areas, bars them off from each other and disjoins them, and breaks up the ratio of eight to eight and an eighth by its division into unequal interval


Plutarch Isis and Osiris




More generally, 16 and 18 represent solutions (x=4, y=4) and (x=3, y=6) of the hyperbolic equation xy = 2x + 2y which in modern terms has an infinity of solutions; Plutarch is saying that (x=4, y=4), (x=3, y=6), and (x=6, y=3) are the only integral solutions. To his positive solutions we would add today three more, at (x=0, y=0), (x=1, y=-2) and (x=-2, y=1): they are symmetrical to Plutarch's set with respect to the two asymptotes, and in terms of geometry represent one null and two imaginary rectangles


The specific shrine s.t rswy as The Place of Dreaming is interesting, and the question of what would be the proportions of such, i think more information is required as to how Seshat would have designed that.

I did check out all references to Seshat in the Coffin texts and the article picked up well on the most intriguing, there aren't that many as she was more popular in the Old Kingdom and her cult seemingly revitalized during the Ptolemaic period, looking to re-establish the magical basis of the written word with regards to the Mistress of the Net.


edit on Kam33166vAmerica/ChicagoWednesday0831 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 9 2017 @ 12:21 AM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Byrd

The three day periodic was based on the Wag Festival, a three day


Two day. Check your source again.


...death and resurrection festival of Osiris leading into that of Thoth,

You appear to be using Schott's list but there are others such as this festival calendar. This apparently reflects evolving traditions.


the Easter narrative took this as it's basis albeit in terms of the Hebrew first month.

I find this very hard to believe. Three is a number that occurs with significant frequency in Christianity. However, it's not particularly significant in Egyptian theology.



There was also mathematical formulae associated with this which the Greeks were familiar with;




Because of this the Pythagoreans call this day "the Barrier," and utterly abominate this number. For the number seventeen, coming in between the square sixteen and the oblong rectangle eighteen, which, as it happens, are the only plane figures that have their perimeters equal their areas, bars them off from each other and disjoins them, and breaks up the ratio of eight to eight and an eighth by its division into unequal interval



Certainly Greek and Pythagorean thought... but not Egyptian.

[quoteThe specific shrine s.t rswy as The Place of Dreaming is interesting, and the question of what would be the proportions of such, i think more information is required as to how Seshat would have designed that.

The shrines are built to house a statue of a particular deity, so they vary in size. Think of them as "cabinets." They're portable; the priests put them on poles and carried them (with the god inside, hidden from view) in processions and for certain events.



posted on Mar, 9 2017 @ 04:57 AM
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a reply to: Byrd

There was the extension into the third day of the combined Wagy-Thoth festival on the 19th which the source didn't mention, but of course that's the basis for considering that initiates of Thoth would have adopted this periodic for the incubation practise, were the Feast of Wagy itself was concerned with the tomb;


On the eighteenth day of the first month of the first season the wag-feast was celebrated, by visiting the parts of the tombs accessible to the living and leaving offerings for the deceased. For most people this was probably a family gathering, but the elite turned it into an occasion of public display.


Not normally of course involving sleeping within it, just the general theme of death and resurrection, it was also the case that the Middle Kingdom coffin texts are relating the Wagy Festival to Osiris as Orion, and the three step symbolism involved there.



Behold, he has come as Orion, behold, Osiris has come as Orion, Lord of Wine in the W3g-festival. ‘My beautiful one!’ said his mother; ‘My heir!’ said his father (of) him whom the sky conceived and the dawn-light bore. O King, the sky conceives you with Orion, the dawn-light bears you with Orion.


The positioning and relationship of the fixed civic calendar festival date and the moveable lunar Wagy festival is highly complex, in origin probably related to the third lunar phase after the rising of Sothis, and that corresponding to the heliacal rising of Orion.


in historical times, there were actually two separate Wagy feasts, one set according to the cycle of the moon and a later one firmly placed at day eighteen of the first civil month. The moveable w3gy kept the feast at approximately the same time in each solar/agricultural year whereas the fixed w3gy held on I 3ḫt 18 would move away from the fourth month of the inundation (3ḫt) due to the civil calendar not keeping in step with the seasons and the heliacal rising of Sothis. While the fixed w3gy feasts are straightforward, the moveable w3gy feasts are not.

The w3gy feast fell on the 17th day of the lunar month, which may have been the eve of the celebration, with the 18th day the main day of the feast. The w3gy feast fell in the month of October, in the third lunar month after the rising of Sothis on 15 July.


Wagy feasts



posted on Mar, 9 2017 @ 05:02 AM
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really good thread Kantz



posted on Mar, 9 2017 @ 01:56 PM
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I just want to thank you for making this wonderful thread

I was dumbfounded that I'd not known of this book and I am an
nut for Egyptian mythology/religion/sacred texts; Etc.

It all makes sense now...

The 'Chamber of Darkness" and the Prima Materia

Vide Supra/Vide Infra




posted on Mar, 10 2017 @ 11:39 AM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Byrd

There was the extension into the third day of the combined Wagy-Thoth festival on the 19th which the source didn't mention, but of course that's the basis for considering that initiates of Thoth would have adopted this periodic for the incubation practise, were the Feast of Wagy itself was concerned with the tomb;


It is YOUR basis. There is no evidence anywhere for "initiates of Thoth" in ancient Egyptian practice. In gnosticism (particularly modern gnosticism such as the paper you use as your foundation represents), yes, there's appropriation of all sorts of deities in ways that were not consistent with the original culture.

But you are making huge assumptions with a "Wagy-Thoth" festival that don't hold up.




Not normally of course involving sleeping within it, just the general theme of death and resurrection, it was also the case that the Middle Kingdom coffin texts are relating the Wagy Festival to Osiris as Orion, and the three step symbolism involved there.

No, they aren't. Remember this is just spells written on various coffins (some of which are represented by a single coffin), there are very few duplicates, and there is no actual "book." Nobody slept in coffins or wanted to sleep in coffins.

Secondly, the line you quote is from the Pyramid Texts (not CT) and is part of a longer section and does NOT relate Orion to the Wagy festival.

Here's the text from Allen:


ADDRESS TO THE SPIRIT AS OSIRIS IN THE DUAT
The earth has been hacked for you and a presented offering laid down for you before you, and you will go on yonder path on which the gods go.

Turn yourself and see this serving that the king has made for you, that Foremost of Westerners has made for you, that you might go to yonder gods, the northern Imperishable Stars.

So, has that great one fallen on his side and he in Nedit been thrown down? Your arm has been received by the Sun, your
head has been raised by the Dual Ennead. “Look, he is come as Orion,” (they say). “Look, Osiris is come as Orion: the lord wine-colored with supplies, the perfect one of whom his mother has spoken, the heir of whom his father has spoken, the one whom the sky has conceived and the morning-star has given birth.”

The sky shall conceive you with Orion, the morning-star shall give you birth with Orion. Live! Live, as the gods have commanded you live. With Orion in the eastern arm of sky shall you go up, with Orion in the western arm of the sky shall you go down. Sothis, whose places are clean, is the third of you two: she is the one who will lead you two in the Marsh of Reeds to the perfect paths in the sky.


The lines are addressed to the King and make no correlation between the Wagy festival and Orion.


The positioning and relationship of the fixed civic calendar festival date and the moveable lunar Wagy festival is highly complex, in origin probably related to the third lunar phase after the rising of Sothis, and that corresponding to the heliacal rising of Orion.

They didn't note the heliacal rising of Orion. Sirius (perhaps, and it's unproven) but not Orion (which they viewed as two constellations during certain times.)

(endnote - thanks for the link to the PDF, though... excellent document! Added it to my collections.)



posted on Mar, 10 2017 @ 07:28 PM
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FAIL



posted on Mar, 11 2017 @ 05:12 AM
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a reply to: Byrd

The premise of the Book in question can only be understood as an initiatory work;


The Book of Thoth, however, draws on cosmogonic themes, but for a purpose wholly novel to us: a metaphysics of semiosis, or sign-production. The Book of Thoth, as best we can understand it, presents a manual of scribal initiation.


But that aside, the fundamental approach of the Egyptian to religious mystery was in knowing progressive signs and utterances, it was deeply rooted in initiatory practise, now obviously this is anathema to yourself and secular liberalism in general but you shouldn't be troubling me with your pointless prejudices that lack all objectivity.

Initiates of Thoth were practising incubation inside sarcophogus, as in Incubation at Saqqara, this had become popular practise in the Late Period but it's a question of the basis for such inclinations.

The Orion quote is a Pyramid text but the word that Allen just renders as supplies is what Faulkner translates as Wagy Festival, as that's what it was,a festival of provision of supplies, the mentioning of supplies in connection with Osiris as Sah/Orion is a general theme in the coffin texts, for example spell 235.

Of course they noted the heliacal rising of Orion, the Sokar-Osiris festival of Khoiak at the end of October in the civic calendar was correlated to that, an Orion based festival, the lunar based Wagy festival occuring three months after the rising of Sothis also thus placed a festival of Osiris at that time of the year, the best paper on this was "Les oignons de Sokar", Revue d'Égyptologie 43, p.87-105, 1992 as mentioned here but seemingly no longer available online.

It isn't the case that this hasn't been previously understood and discussed, but seems to be a case of promoting ignorance almost in the sense of shutting down any understanding, ensuring that Egyptian religion seems essentially pointless, there are certainly those who encourage that.



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