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The ancient Egyptian Book of Thoth

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posted on Feb, 20 2017 @ 04:31 PM
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a reply to: Kantzveldt

Hi is there a PDF file or something on the first link?




posted on Feb, 20 2017 @ 04:55 PM
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a reply to: tikbalang

No i couldn't find a full freebie version, it's on Google books here and there seems to be an updated version entitled Conversations in the House of Life



posted on Feb, 20 2017 @ 05:03 PM
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a reply to: Kantzveldt

Interesting concepts about;" Spiritual beings are the only ones who should be allowed the divine knowledge "



posted on Feb, 20 2017 @ 05:20 PM
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a reply to: tikbalang

Its a theme in the Bible ie Psalm 82King James Version (KJV)

82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.



posted on Feb, 20 2017 @ 05:27 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

I found this in Matthew 5:3

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."



posted on Feb, 20 2017 @ 05:44 PM
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a reply to: Kantzveldt

Another great topic.

I own Corpus Hermeticum translated by Brian P. Copenhaver, Anna Kingsford, and Edward Maitland. Other than Maurice Doreal's modern adaptions, I have never heard of the actual Book of Thoth before. I am intrigued.
Is it completely separate and different than the Hermetic writings such as; "The Virgin of the World", and discourses such as; "Poimandres", "Tat", "Tatios", "Asclepius", "Ammon", etc.?

 

 


Do you think that the Chamber of Darkness is a multifaceted concept, or is it singular in meaning? It rings multiple interpretations for me.

Perhaps, on one level, it is the mental realm of pure calmness and quietness. Being completely in the moment; without any hint of internal opinion, judgment, rationalization, or conflicting discord. In some instances; the "moment" before the moment,... or openness before intuitive spark,... or as perfect sight and perfect clarity,... or even as being at one with God/Universe/Existence in perfect harmony as an instrument of Divine-Will/Higher-Self,... etc., (AM-ness)

On another level, perhaps, referencing the deep inner withdraw from emotion, thought, sensory perception, and time-space. (BE-ness)

Another interpretation; being similar or synonymous with the Akasha; the Universal Consciousness of knowledge and information.

Each of these interpretations have the great potential to bring about intuitive ideas, creativity, and meaningful realizations and insights.



posted on Feb, 20 2017 @ 06:05 PM
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a reply to: Sahabi

Yes it's an Egyptian composition but it can be deduced that this is what fed into the Hermetic tradition, the chamber of darkness will be that region of the circuit of the Aten beneath the Earth in which the Sun was understood to undergo rejuvenation, but there is a more general association it seems with that which is not readily apparent and ever mysterious, with underlying primeval forces and metaphysical contemplations on how to express such in terms of the scribal art, i'm sure most of what you suggest would be relevant to some extent.

It can also be understood as the House of Kek/kky



a reply to: tikbalang

To some extent those Divine spiritual beings could be considered deceased ancestors that had ascended as stars within the waters of Nun, and could be enquired of.




edit on Kpm22850vAmerica/ChicagoMonday2028 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)

edit on Kpm22850vAmerica/ChicagoMonday2028 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2017 @ 06:08 PM
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a reply to: Kantzveldt




posted on Feb, 20 2017 @ 06:36 PM
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a reply to: Kantzveldt

You might be right but I feel that the symbolics are an extra dimension to communication that is lost on us today. So without fully comprehending the symbolics even the keys of all knowledge would sound like absurd waffle. So your answer got me on a quest searching the internet for more on vultures. Some sites suggest vultures were considered by egyptians as representing feminine purity and motherhood. Which in turn might also represent government (42 nomes of egypt) as in a nuturing role etc. So birds seem to portray feminine love and responsibility. Something to admire.

Kantzveldt, you always inspire thought, thank you



edit on 20-2-2017 by glend because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2017 @ 07:05 PM
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a reply to: Kantzveldt

Were you lead to the content of the opening post through the research of your Meme thread? It sure is amazing how many tangents can spin off of an original central idea.

The cosmological cycle of Ra descending into the Duat echoes the cross-cultural Hero's Journey. There are definitely initiatic significances in this mythos. It sure would be fascinating to know the deeper secrets of the mysteries of these cults of writing/imagination!

Nun,... House of Kky,... there are indeed many symbolic mysteries in the Ogdoad, especially when we compare the archetypes to other belief-systems. Thanks again for an interesting thread.



edit on 2/20/17 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2017 @ 08:41 PM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Byrd

Before you engage in endless nay saying i think you should familiarize yourself more with what is specifically involved, that this stands as a precursor to the later Mystery school and Hermetic tradition and involves an actual Egyptian text, that later traditions are based upon it.


Thank you - I will read (scan) the text.


Since its discovery was announced in 1995,1 scholars of Hellenistic and Roman religion have looked forward to seeing the contents of this work, dubbed "The Book of Thoth" by its editors, because of its promise to contain what may be a true Egyptian ancestor to the well-known Greek Hermetica.


Here's where we kind of run into trouble.
* it's from 200-300 AD (so is not really part of Egyptian thought, but rather a blend of things and more Greek than Egyptian. Claiming that it's Egyptian or representative of their though is misleading.
* it is in essence a Gnostic-type text.

Before going further, let's site the work in history. At this point (150 AD) :
* The Roman empire has engulfed Egypt and most of the "known world" by then
* Greece has been conquered by Rome. Egypt is a Roman province.
* Christianity has begun to flourish
* the book is written in Late Roman Demotic
* Almost no one could read Egyptian hieroglyphs - within 200 years, the understanding would be lost forever and the Egyptian language would fade to Coptic.

This is not "ancient Egyptian" in the sense of the pyramids or King Tut or Hatshepsut or Ramesses.


All the concepts that i outlined in the OP are derived from what is involved in the actual text, so what is the point in questioning would they really have indicated such concepts when clearly they did, it seems more the case that you perhaps haven't realized what was involved with certain concepts and are attempting to disavow them based on your own limited understanding, in a sense pre-judging what the Egyptians were allowed to believe.


I'm not that familiar with Roman-era Egypt, no.


The work presents a challenge because it is unique, the Egyptians not explaining themselves elsewhere, so i can only surmise this was for the benefit of the Greek court and to understand the Egyptian mindset.


Again, the date indicates that this wasn't for Greek courts. It sounds more like Gnostics.


Seshat was certainly a Goddess of fate and the cord ceremony was only one aspect of that and related to the notion of threads of fate;


She records the royal name at birth and writes it on the leaves of the sacred ished, or persea tree, at Heliopolis; she records the royal titulary at the coronation; she grants the king sed-festivals, commemorating his accession and renewing his sovereignty; she keeps count of the spoils brought back by the Pharaoh from foreign lands; and she marks the king’s lifespan by notching off years on the palm-stalk, an image augmented by a symbol signifying a limitless quantity, indicating that the king’s reign is eternal.

In temple foundation scenes, Seshat holds the string which is used to mark out the structure’s perimeter. This ritual, called the “stretching of the cord,” expresses her grasp of all the subtle forces that must be harmonized in order for the sacred structure to fulfill its function. In general, Seshat guarantees that rituals of all kinds are performed according to the instructions in the holy books. In Egyptian thought the concept of fate (shaï) is always imagined in connection with writing, and hence Seshat is a Goddess of fate as well, which in Egyptian theology paradigmatically involves reckoning the lifespan.


The string literally indicates what direction a plan shall take, what is fated to arise, it's a known association of writing/fate Goddesses.


That's really more of a Roman concept.

The waters involved in the realm of darkness are always those of Nun, this is not chaos as such but the primeval and certainly not evil, the challenge appears to be to establish oneself within them.

I think we're confusing the Duat with Nun. The Jasnow book that you reference uses material from the New Kingdom and Ptolemaic times and there is a change in the geography of the Duat from the earliest times. In the Pyramid Texts, there is no elaborate journey... the pharaoh simply ascends and is welcomed. The waters in the Duat are the Mehet Werewet... the nightly journey of Re is into and through the body of Nut - not Nun. Nun exists outside of things.



posted on Feb, 20 2017 @ 09:05 PM
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...and I note in the review of the material that you linked, than there is not great support for this being an Egyptian text and that there are a number of scholars who say that nothing about it is really Egyptian.

I would tend to agree with this group, based on what I've learned and on what I have seen change in Egyptian religion from the predynastic to the New Kingdom (where we are now. Ptolemaic is next year.)



posted on Feb, 21 2017 @ 04:13 AM
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a reply to: Byrd

There are certainly fragments dating to the Roman period from various sources indicating that the work was considerably copied, the dating of the original however remains uncertain and there are indications that it was first compiled at Edfu due to correspondences with phraseology also found there, and i remain of the opinion that it was compiled as part of the Ptolemaic systematic approach to an understanding of Egyptian doctrine, you cannot easily introduce Greek thought into a religious system that is so reliant on descriptive word play in the original language and system of signs, everything involved in the text is Egyptian and relies upon a comprehensive understanding of that tradition in order to make it's case.

I don't think the geography of the Duat ever changed but there could be differences in emphasis and interpretation, the body of Nut is still formed of Nun and the stars along the pathway that that Sun takes within the underworld, the womb of Nut is still that inner sanctum were the Sun is rejuvenated in order to be reborn.

a reply to: Sahabi

It's related to what i was interested in there yes, which is the relationship of fate to writing and process derived from inscribing a furrow, the golden grain derivative and Sun Goddess of the Underworld that emerge, as if by magic, but of course one thing always leads to another and that's all part of the fun.

edit on Kam22851vAmerica/ChicagoTuesday2128 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2017 @ 05:14 AM
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originally posted by: Byrd

The Emerald Tablets are an alchemical book (very short) dating to around 1500 AD.

The Emerald Tablet. Singular.
The thing only contains 14 lines of text.

The "Emerald Tablets" (plural) was a fraudulent piece written by Claude Doggins - an acolyte of the fake medium Helena Blavatsky.

Just wanted to chime in with that.

Harte

edit on 2/21/2017 by Harte because: of the wonderful things he does!



posted on Feb, 21 2017 @ 07:40 AM
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a reply to: Harte


The "Emerald Tablets" (plural) was a fraudulent piece written by Claude Doggins - an acolyte of the fake medium Helena Blavatsky.


H.P. Blavatsky died in 1891, while Claude D. Dodgin, aka; Claude Doggins, aka; Maurice Doreal, was born in 1898.

Dodgin/Doggins/Doreal was not an acolyte of H.P.B., nor was he a member of the Theosophical Society. He studied home-correspondence courses from the Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis (AMORC) and independently read Theosophical Society (T.S.) authors. He borrowed concepts from T.S. literature, thusly; only being a "Theosophist" through borrowed influence.

He established the "Brotherhood of the White Temple" in 1929/1930, which is completely separate, extrinsic, and independent from the Theosophical Society. He then published his; "The Emerald Tablets of Thoth the Atlantean", in 1939.


Maurice Doreal (atlantipedia)

Maurice Doreal and His Brotherhood of the White Temple Awaited the Apocalypse in Colorado (West Word)



posted on Feb, 21 2017 @ 08:52 AM
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For a few reasons, I get the impression that the OP's sources read "The Anubis Gates" by Tim Powers.



posted on Feb, 21 2017 @ 09:37 AM
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originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Byrd

The Emerald Tablets are an alchemical book (very short) dating to around 1500 AD.

The Emerald Tablet. Singular.
The thing only contains 14 lines of text.

The "Emerald Tablets" (plural) was a fraudulent piece written by Claude Doggins - an acolyte of the fake medium Helena Blavatsky.

Just wanted to chime in with that.

Harte


Thank you.

We should give them Latin Names (genus and species) because this "common name" thing (where everyone named their book of derived wisdom as the "Book of Thoth") is just the pits.



posted on Feb, 21 2017 @ 09:43 AM
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a reply to: Byrd

Have YOU ever read "The Anubis Gates"? If not, you are in for a treat. It's not everyone who can combine time travel, poetry, Egyptian mythology, magic and science and actually get it to hang together.

Better still, it's actually decently researched Egyptian mythos. I was able to find the source texts he used given time.

Although he ties this Thoth book thing and darkness together all through the book. Which is why I brought it up. But it hangs with the other bits.



At first Doctor Romany thought all the lamps had been simultaneously extinguished, but when he glanced at them he saw that their flames stood as tall as before. But nearly all the light was gone—it was as though he now viewed the room through many layers of smoked glass. He pulled his coat closer about his throat; the warmth had diminished too. For the first time that night he felt afraid. He forced himself to look down at the book that lay in the box, the book that had absorbed the room’s light and warmth. Hieroglyphic figures shone from ancient papyrus—shone not with light but with an intense blackness that seemed about to suck out his soul through his eyes. And the meanings of the figures darted clearly and forcefully into his mind, as they would have done even to someone who couldn’t read the primeval Egyptian script, for they were written here in the world’s youth by the god Thoth, the father and spirit of language itself. He tore his gaze fearfully away, for he could feel the words burning marks on his soul like a baptism.


Powers, Tim. The Anubis Gates (Ace Science Fiction) (p. 3). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
edit on 21-2-2017 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2017 @ 10:12 AM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Byrd

There are certainly fragments dating to the Roman period from various sources indicating that the work was considerably copied, the dating of the original however remains uncertain and there are indications that it was first compiled at Edfu ...


Which was built (new) in a town that was built in the Greco-Roman era and was one of the places where Egyptians were not really allowed (Greek city).


...due to correspondences with phraseology also found there,...


Which they copied...


and i remain of the opinion that it was compiled as part of the Ptolemaic systematic approach to an understanding of Egyptian doctrine, you cannot easily introduce Greek thought into a religious system that is so reliant on descriptive word play in the original language and system of signs, everything involved in the text is Egyptian and relies upon a comprehensive understanding of that tradition in order to make it's case.


There's no evidence that the court or the rulers followed any of this. Thoth's main cult center was in Hermopolis, some distance to the south from Alexandria and Edfu itself is very far south, near Aswan (at the other end of Egypt from the Ptolemaic Courts.) It's true that at this time Thoth's role changes from that to a teacher and he becomes Thoth-Hermes (and later Thoth Trismegistus)

As Jastow admits, Hornung an others say that there is no evidence that there was any sort of initiation ritual in Egyptian religion. Would this, as Kasoy suggests (p. 55) be something that the priests would learn as their studies advanced and they got to read the books in the temple? That's also plausible.

On p. 65, where the discussion is of "trismegistus" as "wr wr wr" (which I would translate as 'thrice-powerful') the text discusses that these texts were widely circulated not among the courts but among the mystery schools. Each one was hungry for new students and to be seen as 'official' and 'deeper and more mystical' than the others.

This appears to be the origin of this particular book, IMHO, because in the main it really is not Egyptian (in terms of what they believed and knew back from predynastic times through the New Kingdom.


I don't think the geography of the Duat ever changed but there could be differences in emphasis and interpretation, the body of Nut is still formed of Nun and the stars along the pathway that that Sun takes within the underworld, the womb of Nut is still that inner sanctum were the Sun is rejuvenated in order to be reborn.

The basics were sort of similar, but early on there was no journey with Re through the night world. Divisions of caverns came later.



posted on Feb, 21 2017 @ 10:14 AM
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originally posted by: Bedlam
a reply to: Byrd

Have YOU ever read "The Anubis Gates"? If not, you are in for a treat. It's not everyone who can combine time travel, poetry, Egyptian mythology, magic and science and actually get it to hang together.

Better still, it's actually decently researched Egyptian mythos. I was able to find the source texts he used given time.

Although he ties this Thoth book thing and darkness together all through the book. Which is why I brought it up. But it hangs with the other bits.



At first Doctor Romany thought all the lamps had been simultaneously extinguished, but when he glanced at them he saw that their flames stood as tall as before. But nearly all the light was gone—it was as though he now viewed the room through many layers of smoked glass. He pulled his coat closer about his throat; the warmth had diminished too. For the first time that night he felt afraid. He forced himself to look down at the book that lay in the box, the book that had absorbed the room’s light and warmth. Hieroglyphic figures shone from ancient papyrus—shone not with light but with an intense blackness that seemed about to suck out his soul through his eyes. And the meanings of the figures darted clearly and forcefully into his mind, as they would have done even to someone who couldn’t read the primeval Egyptian script, for they were written here in the world’s youth by the god Thoth, the father and spirit of language itself. He tore his gaze fearfully away, for he could feel the words burning marks on his soul like a baptism.


Powers, Tim. The Anubis Gates (Ace Science Fiction) (p. 3). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.


Haven't read it - I remember that it won several awards but I had gotten so busy that I wasn't attending many science fiction conventions in those years and didn't pick up many new books.



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