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Freedom or Tyranny

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posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 10:31 AM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky
Freedom means free will. With free will comes self-responsibility, self-accountability and self-determination.

Here is the flaw in your argument. You are assuming that these things come with freedom but all too often, that doesn't seem to be the case.




posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 10:34 AM
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a reply to: ttobban

Wow, those words could form another thread entirely. Now you are entering on the spiritual and I love those discussions.

I think that if people opened their senses to fully recognize the results of their actions, ie karma, they would start to understand the rules of this reality. I just don't know at what level of pain and suffering someone must reach before they start harmonizing with this reality.

This reality is not just happiness and contentment. It is also pain and suffering. Maybe when people do not accept the pain and suffering and instead deny it, they never see the path. I could just be sadistic but I try to fully embrace pain and suffering because there are some great lessons in there.

It all gets back to the yin and yang eventually.



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 10:42 AM
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a reply to: daskakik

I don't understand. To deny that would mean 1/2 if not 3/4 of my foundation in which to live in this reality would need to be recreated.

Would you care to elaborate?



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 10:44 AM
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a reply to: ClovenSky




I think that if people opened their senses to fully recognize the results of their actions, ie karma, they would start to understand the rules of this reality. I just don't know at what level of pain and suffering someone must reach before they start harmonizing with this reality.


Exactly... laws/borders/divide/tyranny all fall into what you are saying. It's freeing to provide spiritual inputs to land laws, yet pushing too far and allowing religion to create law... and now the tyrannies/misguided oneness sets in. All religions are 100% right... for those practicing them. I wish they be my neighbors so long as I am granted the same respect. No need to form a law if the freedom of choice for all is in play.




This reality is not just happiness and contentment. It is also pain and suffering. Maybe when people do not accept the pain and suffering and instead deny it, they never see the path.


Exactly again! I reflect on the sadness of the world around me when I am happy. Reflect on things that I am thankful for when feeling down. I could erase the splendors of life by taking an anti-depressant (aka, tyranny pill) and create a flat line, void of all emotion. But I prefer to learn how to dance in rain storms, then I care to learn to dodge rain drops to get where I am going.



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 11:05 AM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky
Would you care to elaborate?

Maybe it is just the wording but people who are free are not necessarily self-responsible and self-accountable.

You stated it like it is a given.

edit on 18-2-2017 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 11:06 AM
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God what an over-simplified, naive, stupid post.

Not all groups or leadership are tyrannical, and not all "individualists" are good. You can't have large populations without some sort of governing structure anyways- it's impossible and has never existed in human history. Even isolated tribes in the jungle have leadership and rules and traditions. The only way to have none is to live by yourself in the wilderness. I'd like to see all of you who rail against government and organization go into the wild and try to live by yourself for a few weeks as true "individualists". Humans are a social species, what you believe is BS.

The real irony is how you listed anarchists like it's a good philosophy, but most people are here are constantly ranting against the "anarchy" of the protesting against Trump right now.

Then there's the fact that different groups value different freedoms, so there's really no freedom, versus lack of freedom divide like you proclaim. There are competing groups that prioritize different freedoms, that's the reality.


edit on 18-2-2017 by CB328 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 11:09 AM
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originally posted by: CB328
Then there's the fact that different groups value different freedoms, so there's really no freedom, versus lack of freedom divide like you proclaim. There are competing groups that prioritize different freedoms, that's the reality.

A perfect example is the OP's post about creating "50 different states with different ways of governance"



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 11:14 AM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: intrptr

I admit, I am a lot less free than I would like to be. But I think that is starting to change. Those who take the necessity of LIMITED tyranny for society to function in today's age and perverted it for power/control may have taken their greed too far and awoken some of the sheep. This may just be the start of the so called awakened that are finally starting to realize what has happened and even better, what they have lost.

The more limited their options, the more enslaved people become, the more they will begin to question it. Since their slavery is borne of greed that has no bounds, it is an inevitability. Thats why empires always wind up on the ash heap of history, eventually.

Rome took a thousand years, god forbid.



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 11:33 AM
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a reply to: CB328

Thank you for the criticism. I didn't realize that I came across as an anarchist. I do not believe that I stated that for our current level of human maturity, it would be possible to completely forgo government. But I do not believe we have the structures in place to keep our government honest. That I would like to change. Maybe we had it at one point in our past, but it has been severely corrupted along the way.

Why is it so bad to want to reign in the corruption? Why is it so bad to want to remove the structures that allow the people in our government to be so easily corrupted? Why is it so bad to start holding these people accountable? What is so bad about national sovereignty? What is so bad about wanting to transfer rights back to the states?

You use the word freedom in your explanations where I would use the words 'mob rules'. You can have the freedom of the individual without imposing your beliefs on others. I fully acknowledge that there are people out there that don't like freedom. Freedom takes away their power and control structures. There are others that do not appreciate freedom because it comes with responsibility and accountability.



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 11:48 AM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky
Maybe we had it at one point in our past, but it has been severely corrupted along the way.

You didn't. That is a conservative fallacy.


You use the word freedom in your explanations where I would use the words 'mob rules'.

If they are interchangeable to you then there might be a problem.



You can have the freedom of the individual without imposing your beliefs on others.

You might. The guy down the road might not.



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 11:51 AM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: AboveBoard

I understand that people are different. It is one of the things that makes this life, this reality worth experiencing. If we were all the same, this world would be fricken boring.

But maybe we could create 50 different states with different ways of governance. The states would still have to obey the bill of rights and the constitution that protects the individual against mob rule, even when that tyranny is in the hands of the city or state. But within those confines, different societies could be created. There would need to be a respect between states in the respect to pollution and possible other types of encroachment. But then an individual would have freedom. The freedom of choice. If you don't like your current environment then move to a state that shares your ideals. If you have family or other reasons not to move, then just like the choice between freedom and tyranny, you would have to accept the consequences of your decision.


Some rambling thoughts on your quotes post:

This may be your idea of utopia, but not mine.

Next thing you know there are border walls up between states and you no longer have a United States but a loose group of nation-states.

And some of these don't want to pay attention to the Bill of Rights and all that kumbahyah crap about "equal protection under the law" and maybe in one Jim Crow is reinstated and in another you can go to prison for "hate speech" because you didn't check your privilege fast enough.

How long before the states decided they would no longer help each other during crises and that the US military should be broken into State militaries that may or may not choose to follow a national defense or come to the aid of a fellow nation state. How long before petty grievances of culture and commerce, of resources and opportunity become intractable and wars break out between states over these things that we just huff and puff about on the internet now.

Can you imagine? Just like Europe, border crossings and checkpoints every few hours as you drive state to state. Fun!

How long before we are invaded, broken and weak. How long can you keep a United military and a functioning greater economy? By dividing the states into nation states you are handing over our power to whomever is the new "biggest nation on the block." Or setting up the stage for dictatorships.

You would be trashing the Constitution as well, ultimately. Not immediately, but give it time.

It seems that maybe you want to break the US up because you think it's already broken, it doesn't match your ideals? I think that would be a terrible idea.

Is there a place in the world right now where you might find your ideal sense of freedom? Can you not take "personal responsibility and move there," or choose to remain where you are and "deal with the consequences??"

What you want is the De-evolution of the United States.

It is Dystopian.

Our nation's Strength is found both in its Unity, and its compassionate appreciation and protection of diversity.

I don't think we want to become the EU.

And yes. We are all different.





posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 12:01 PM
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a reply to: AboveBoard

And yes. We are all different.

Yes, yes we are. There are some exciting times ahead.

It will certainly be interesting to say the least.

Peace




posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 12:12 PM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: AboveBoard

And yes. We are all different.

Yes, yes we are. There are some exciting times ahead.

It will certainly be interesting to say the least.

Peace



I fear you are correct. "May you live in interesting times" is a Chinese curse. Lol!



And God
Bless the USA



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 12:52 PM
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a reply to: AboveBoard

I begin to generalize things when vortexes of consequence of past action are in play.

While I do not endorse large group of states acting as individual country's, I do fully support a peaceful political revolution of which all current elected officials step aside for a new group of unaffiliated citizens takes the helms.

When the author's and implementer's of the quickest Super Power gaining Country in Earth's history indicate in their philosophies that any form of government will live through tyrannies of legacy if a revolution does not occur every so often, I urge current issues to be pushed aside for the unity of citizens... just as you state.

I do not buy into the concept the keeping our government in check is a form of de-evolution of the U.S. though. A generation has yet to show the willingness and efforts to unify against government over-reach until the times of recent. As corporate America (see Avatar) sets the standards/laws of the state... they get a larger portion of market share into our wallets. As the government/corporate scenes gain influence and power, the masses with less money in their pockets are backed into a corner of equaling the balance of power. The over reach of regulation comes at a cost, and at some point in time, the deck should be reshuffled. The U.S. is long overdue for a revolution... at least 150 years of tyranny and legacy in place right now. The longer it waits... the bigger the boom when the pressure reaches it's combustion point.

Complacency in thinking change is not necessary for the mere fact that the Country is already the World Superpower is a vote for tyranny in my mind... as different as my mind may fire electrical circuitry differently. To indicate what may happen on the other side of the tunnel once the masses bore a new tunnel is a bit premature. At some point in time, a generation is going to have to unify for the chances of their offspring have a better chance of freedom... it must and should come from a place within ourselves that is not self serving... but a revolution is long overdue.



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 12:59 PM
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originally posted by: ClovenSky

Freedom means free will. With free will comes self-responsibility, self-accountability and self-determination. Tyranny is the opposite of that.


The only people able to exercise their free will are the tyrants.



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 01:12 PM
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a reply to: ttobban

Have you ever thought about what it would take to hold our government accountable? What would it take to restore honesty and remove the enormous pressure that comes with centralized control?

In a generalized concept, I think the first thing we would need to do is remove the power of 'the cabal' to leech off of our productive capacity. All of these tertiary businesses that just suck off of the labor of man and produce, manufacture or mine nothing. Such as these glorious conglomerates comprising the financial industry, insurance and a lot of the government. Their leeching is almost completely hidden. But one can easily see how they are raping us by looking at the value of the US dollar since the inception of the federal reserve. Inflation is such a wonderful thing, almost like a silent killer.

We need to get rid of the public company. Make everything private. No more shareholders, it will be just the employees and management/owners that receive compensation from a companies surplus. That compensation should stay within the national boarders or even better, within the states boarders.

Maybe if we remove the ability of the cabal to suck off of the fruits of our labor, they will leave us alone



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 01:50 PM
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a reply to: ClovenSky




Have you ever thought about what it would take to hold our government accountable? What would it take to restore honesty and remove the enormous pressure that comes with centralized control?


Our votes hold our government accountable. I refuse red/blue voting on top levels because it's my only way that I can hold them to a standard without running for office myself. Running for office is not out of the question for me one day. I often find it odd how legacies are so deeply routed that a majority of the citizens still believe that the red and or blue can fix things for the better. You know why I don't suffer internally from racial divide dilemmas? Because I only see humans... the divide immediately sets different paths of divide.

To restore honesty, only a path of more options to steer things on a slow tow, or a removal of legacy with a new cast of neutral characters voted in to yank the rug out swiftly from it all. Sadly, all current angers stem in a multitude of directions when it all seems to source from the divide of wealth in the country. It seems to me the firm stances, one side or the other, are primarily stemming from their own financial realities when it comes to integrating a common financial ground among all. The poor want more and the rich think the few that can obtain it are due their birth right to finances... as if finances are like a governed nation.

I do not support privatization on all things... it's why we are in this mess to begin with. You said it yourself... since the inception of the Federal Reserve... a private bank that is masked with a federal name. That's who wants trillions of dollars of debt back... if they are so American in support, the 1% would forgive all debt owed. We support the tyranny of misspending and over regulation by voting clowns that are influenced by these wealthy people tricking the poor.

As long as the poor stay fighting and can't see the source of the bulk of problems, the rich stay overly influential. Thankfully the internet, discussions like these, are influencing minds to brew up the best course of actions for the future. No longer are we limited to what is taught in books, and news happens immediately on a global scale. The rich can't compete with that, and boy are they trying hard to keep this movement at bay... but it is not possible to stop. Remove lobbying and corporations from having a vote in the political system along the way, and I feel the citizens will come out on the positive side of things for our children.

I'd love nothing more then for if and when I run for office... under an unaffiliated ticket... for media sources to reach into these ATS archives and quote my thoughts and input on a ticker at the bottom of the TV, instead of what gang I choose to keep away from. Remove an affiliation, and the laws of attraction naturally force the masses to think politically on different terms than they may be used to.



posted on Feb, 18 2017 @ 01:57 PM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

And, think about how the class divide has already took place in our country. State after state, county after county... the wealthy move out to newer, upgraded, and distant of community involvement to clean up. That means the wealthy clearly want to establish their own dis-involvement with community rebuilding. That leaves the poor to not only have to clean up after what the wealthy left behind in negativity, but to work through the collective political influence the wealthy gain as well. The hill gets steeper and steeper until the influential and willing members of the poor sectors gain an equal voice to the legacies we witness in these times.




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