A Brief History of Meme

a reply to: Byrd

Just my own consideration really, though the motif of the Duat, the star, expresses this as the raised arms are at 18 degree angles or 1/20 of a circle, it's the case that there are always 4/10 ths of the circle of the Aten in permanent darkness with regards to Egypt.

The Ogdoad is seen in conjunction with demarcations of time in the example in the link you provided, there was a cyclic aspect in terms of rejuvenation, were one was sort of expected to leap back upwards like an irrepressible frog, the author indirectly covers this in discussing the symbolism of the leg in resurrection.

a reply to: Byrd

Kek!

Well I'm glad others enjoyed the read too! I thought it was really funny..

a reply to: SargonThrall

I didn't post it saying it was true. I posted as its relevant to the thread and it makes for an entertaining read!

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Byrd

Just my own consideration really, though the motif of the Duat, the star, expresses this as the raised arms are at 18 degree angles or 1/20 of a circle, it's the case that there are always 4/10 ths of the circle of the Aten in permanent darkness with regards to Egypt.

I'm tired... or maybe I'm slipping. Your statement is confusing to me.

The Duat has nothing to do with 18 degrees... the 'star' icon has arms at 72 degree intervals (as hand drawn) and the Aten is the solar disk itself and there is no association with darkness.

Could you explain?

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
The Ogdoad is seen in conjunction with demarcations of time in the example in the link you provided, there was a cyclic aspect in terms of rejuvenation,

I was right along with you at this point if you meant in terms of the NIle.

were one was sort of expected to leap back upwards like an irrepressible frog, the author indirectly covers this in discussing the symbolism of the leg in resurrection.

...and at that point your remarks took off in a direction that's ... odd? Yes, body parts are certainly equated with the deities in parts of the pyramid texts in various pyramids. The legs are associated with Atum, with Imseti and Qebehsenuef, and then with Osiris and Unis (at least in the pyramid of Unis) and Meryre's legs are described as the bas that guard the entrance to the Marsh of the Limits in his pyramid text (etc, for many examples in the Pyramid Texts - in the 15 or so that have been translated.)

I think the author rather selected one section to comment on and forgot the rest?

a reply to: Byrd

Naturally as the point of ultimate twilight is located at 18 degrees beneath the horizon both East and West that gives the figure of 144 degrees for the zone of permanent darkness, or 2 x 72 degrees taking Celestial North as a dividing line, which of course they did in terms of a plumb line to determine the Celestial orientation.

Again in the paper you provided there is mentioned the circuit of the Aten which of course has to correlate with the conceptual circle involved here and were 144 degrees of that will be in permanent darkness, in my opinion were Hathor is directly understood as the Aten relates to the internalized Aten within the Duat as essentially Feminine, and in the sense of the formative and rejuvenated within her inner sanctum, though in terms of continuity she is also considered the essence throughout the entire circuit of the Aten.

The Female King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Rayt, daughter of Ra, the Atenet in the circuit of the sun disk, the Beautiful One (f.) who appears in Netjery among her Ennead, everyone lives in seeing her .

One rises early in the morning in order to adore her every single day, Hathor the Great, Lady of Iunet, Eye of Ra.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Byrd

Naturally as the point of ultimate twilight is located at 18 degrees beneath the horizon both East and West that gives the figure of 144 degrees for the zone of permanent darkness, or 2 x 72 degrees taking Celestial North as a dividing line, which of course they did in terms of a plumb line to determine the Celestial orientation.

Can you give me a time and reference for when or where they did this calculation and how they knew it was 18 degrees when degrees is a measurement developed much later? And where the number of 144 comes from? And how they used a plumb line to determine "Celestial orientation" (do you mean azmuth or elevation?)

The "stretching of the cord" had to do with surveying and not with astronomy, by the way (before you start down that road.)

Again in the paper you provided there is mentioned the circuit of the Aten which of course has to correlate with the conceptual circle involved here

That would be the daily journey where the sun was born each day - but it was not thought of as circular or a circuit. Akhenaten did not have a concept of what happened during the night.

and were 144 degrees of that will be in permanent darkness,

First... where does this "144" come from? It doesn't relate to the Duat, nor does it to astronomy as far as I can tell. They had only 36 decans that they used to tell time and a cubit is 28 digits

in my opinion were Hathor is directly understood as the Aten

Hathor is never seen as the Aten.

relates to the internalized Aten within the Duat as essentially Feminine, and in the sense of the formative and rejuvenated within her inner sanctum, though in terms of continuity she is also considered the essence throughout the entire circuit of the Aten.

You're conflating cow goddesses (and some of this apparently comes from Ptolemaic times.) Mehet-Weret is the cow goddess of he waterways of the Duat and in later times the Duat was seen as being inside the body of Nut the sky goddess (as shown in the tomb of Seti I and several others) instead of Geb (the earth deity.)

The Female King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Rayt, daughter of Ra, the Atenet in the circuit of the sun disk, the Beautiful One (f.) who appears in Netjery among her Ennead, everyone lives in seeing her .

One rises early in the morning in order to adore her every single day, Hathor the Great, Lady of Iunet, Eye of Ra.

Can you give me a source for that quote? I can't seem to find it anywhere and some of the language is odd (... appears in the Netjery?) And the "eye of Re" has nothing to do with the Aten. It's ... sort of the "police force"/"bounty hunter" for the deity Re.

a reply to: Byrd

I already pointed out that that whether you think of it in terms of degrees or fractions it's a question of proportion not numerology, the point of ultimate twilight could only be conjectured through noting the angles and rate of ascension of the Sun when above the horizon and comparing that to the amount of time it was beneath the horizon when light first became visible.

It can be seen on the Dream stele that an offering is made at a mark 18 degrees below the horizon and also at 9 degrees above it, which corresponded to the first hour of the day, that reversed for Sunset.



There are various theories as you know with regards to Cardinal alignment through Celestial North, i'm hardly going into that here, and again if you had read the paper you linked to it would be apparent the quote i posted was from that article, were Hathor is very much suggested as the Aten and were the circuit of such is considered.

It is the case that the Ptolemaic Dynasty undertook a major re-evaluation of Egyptian mythology and changed the emphasis in certain areas to produce a more systematic approach, part of that involved the rehabilitation of the Aten through the restoration of the Sun Goddess of the Underworld, the essential role of Hathor of Denderah.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Byrd

I already pointed out that that whether you think of it in terms of degrees or fractions it's a question of proportion not numerology, the point of ultimate twilight could only be conjectured through noting the angles and rate of ascension of the Sun when above the horizon and comparing that to the amount of time it was beneath the horizon when light first became visible.

You still haven't shown how they measured it or if they measured it. You simply produced a number and a conjecture without demonstrating that they did so.

It can be seen on the Dream stele that an offering is made at a mark 18 degrees below the horizon and also at 9 degrees above it, which corresponded to the first hour of the day, that reversed for Sunset.

The proportions are simply that of all the royal artwork at the time. You would find that in other pieces, including non-royal pieces simply because that's the design convention. The two sphinxes (both of which are inscribed with the name " Harmakhis") represent the Great Sphinx itself and not the Akeru (which would be the lions of the horizon.) (translation here)

The piece itself says nothing about sunrise or sunset.

There are various theories as you know with regards to Cardinal alignment through Celestial North, i'm hardly going into that here, and again if you had read the paper you linked to it would be apparent the quote i posted was from that article, were Hathor is very much suggested as the Aten and were the circuit of such is considered.

Which paper?

I liked the Aten and a longer paper on Atenism. Could you refresh what paper, please?

It is the case that the Ptolemaic Dynasty undertook a major re-evaluation of Egyptian mythology and changed the emphasis in certain areas to produce a more systematic approach, part of that involved the rehabilitation of the Aten through the restoration of the Sun Goddess of the Underworld, the essential role of Hathor of Denderah.

I would like to see some proof that the Ptolemies knew about the Aten. Horemheb commenced a rather systematic destruction of the religious concepts once he took over.

Your characterization of Hathor as a solar goddess is not consistent with the depictions. She is the eye of Re; in early times she is mentioned as one that Re resides in (and sometimes as his wife.) But not as the sun. As "Mistress of the West" Hathor welcomed the dead in a motherly fashion, giving them food and drink but did not function as a sun goddess.

a reply to: Byrd

I shouldn't need and i'm not going to explain anything with regards to how the Egyptians measured angles of the Suns ascension because there are numerous measuring instruments dating at least as far back as the early Middle Kingdom and explanations available as to what was involved.

The relative position that the offerings are made to the Sphinx would have been self explanatory to the Egyptians with regards to tradition, their design convention and classical proportion were intended to harmonize with the Cosmos.

Like i said the Theology of Hathor paper covers her role as the Aten or Atenet;

Theology of Hathor

Adoration to you, Golden One, Lady of Iunet, the Noble and Powerful Lady in the Sanctuary of the Noble Lady, She who shines like gold

in the Temple of the Sistrum, the Atenet in the Land of Atum. I adore your Incarnation with what your heart desires. I invoke your statue with the sacred texts.

I exalt your kA to the height of heaven. I praise your statue to the extent of the rays of the Aten.



Polyptotons on the roots, ra, "sun," and itn, "sun disk," juxtapose the feminine forms, Ray.t, "Rayt (Female Sun)," and Itn.t, "Atenet (Female Solar Disk)," with the male forms, Ra, "Ra," and itn, "Aten."

Again, everyone lives due to seeing the (female) sun. However, this time the expression used is Hr-nb, literally, "every face," adding the imagery of people turning their faces towards the light of the solar disk.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Another brilliant thread. Thank you Kantzveldt

When particular communities have no practical command of writing but only a general knowledge of its concept, it is likely to acquire magical and ominous connotations in their eyes.

Great job of bringing awareness to deities associated with writing! Ancient man often concealed knowledge through exoteric mythology and anthropomorphized deification. Solar/Lunar cycles, agriculture, metallurgy, and even alcohol making were made into Mysteries.

Drawn symbols and written words carry near-magical power, in that, they invoke thoughts and emotions within us. With an understanding of popular-culture, environmental context, and psychology, it is quite possible to target desired thoughts, emotions, and reactions through the use of symbols, words, and the meme.

While reading your OP, John 1:1 came to mind;
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Byrd

I shouldn't need and i'm not going to explain anything with regards to how the Egyptians measured angles of the Suns ascension because there are numerous measuring instruments dating at least as far back as the early Middle Kingdom and explanations available as to what was involved.

You probably should.

I'm familiar with their shadow clocks and the clepsydras and that the length of the hours changed with the season. And they did not measure the size/angle of the Akhet(sunrise) as far as I can tell. I'm aware that they had geometry. What doesn't seem to happen is an accurate accounting of the sky until the time of the Ptolemies (and then it was taken from Greek and Babylonian astronomers.)

The relative position that the offerings are made to the Sphinx would have been self explanatory to the Egyptians with regards to tradition, their design convention and classical proportion were intended to harmonize with the Cosmos.

The idea of proportions and harmony of the universe is Greek, not Egyptian. The dream Stele was created long before the Greeks came up with this concept.

Like i said the Theology of Hathor paper covers her role as the Aten or Atenet;

Theology of Hathor

Adoration to you, Golden One, Lady of Iunet, the Noble and Powerful Lady in the Sanctuary of the Noble Lady, She who shines like gold in the Temple of the Sistrum, the Atenet in the Land of Atum. I adore your Incarnation with what your heart desires. I invoke your statue with the sacred texts.

I exalt your kA to the height of heaven. I praise your statue to the extent of the rays of the Aten.

Point conceded. Things like this make me realize how little I do know.

However, going back to the theme, "Kek" is not an ancient Egyptian concept that's remained as a symbol within society. It's a ret-conned modern symbol based on synchronicity and a rather closed-world meme.

a reply to: Sahabi

Yes it was the sense that all writing was considered a magical practise in it's early development that i wanted to get across, that the drawing of the furrow of the incised mark is the fertile ground within which the seeds of one's notion will be planted, that this set the process of fate in motion and if well protected and nourished will produce some sort of curious plant.

It is the case that we are ever eating the fruits of those magical trees that others have planted, that there are plenty that insist we eat their produce, it is all rather ominous but fun as well.

a reply to: Byrd

Egyptian shadow clocks



So they were very familiar with the angles expressed in fractions, as i mentioned for example the first hour of the day would correspond with the Sun 9 degrees above the horizon, the only way that they could consider the position of the Sun beneath the horizon was to reverse that observed process, generally today we categorize three varying degrees of twilight;



For the Egyptians also the first emergence of the Sun was understood to go through several phases, from the scarub to the lily to the emergence of Nefer-Atum or Ihy in the Dendera cosmology, as this was a gradual incrementation of light, the point of Ultimate or Astronomical twilight is achieved well over two hours before actual dawn, and so they would need to measure the amount of time elapsed and correlate that with the correspondent daytime angle for that amount of time.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt

For the Egyptians also the first emergence of the Sun was understood to go through several phases, from the scarub to the lily to the emergence of Nefer-Atum or Ihy in the Dendera cosmology, as this was a gradual incrementation of light, the point of Ultimate or Astronomical twilight is achieved well over two hours before actual dawn, and so they would need to measure the amount of time elapsed and correlate that with the correspondent daytime angle for that amount of time.

I have not seen anywhere a depiction of multiple stages of the deity before sunrise. To the best of my knowledge, the only similar thing I see is that around the New Kingdom, the solar deity where Khepri was the morning sun, Ra was the midday sun, and Atum was the evening sun. There was no specific time when one took over from the other.

Could you give me a reference?

a reply to: Byrd

There are specific points at which they would be understood to emerge.

mss.tw nTr pn aA m xprw.f n xpr(i) r qrr.t tn qrrt StAt nt dwAt mss.t nTr pn aA r.s pr.f m nwn Htp.f m Xt nwt

It is at this cavern that this great god is born, in his form as Khepri it is the secret cavern of the Netherworld, at which this great god is born, he coming forth from Nun and going to rest in the belly of Nut

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Byrd

There are specific points at which they would be understood to emerge.

mss.tw nTr pn aA m xprw.f n xpr(i) r qrr.t tn qrrt StAt nt dwAt mss.t nTr pn aA r.s pr.f m nwn Htp.f m Xt nwt

It is at this cavern that this great god is born, in his form as Khepri it is the secret cavern of the Netherworld, at which this great god is born, he coming forth from Nun and going to rest in the belly of Nut

That's a single form (Kephri) who emerges from formless chaos (Nun) and not multiple stages. He then changes to Re about midday and Atum at sunset. Your claim was for multiple stages before sunrise.

There are specific points at which they would be understood to emerge.

That's a single form (Kephri) who emerges from formless chaos (Nun) and not multiple stages. He then changes to Re about midday and Atum at sunset. Your claim was for multiple stages before sunrise.

a reply to: Byrd

Of course, there is the small question of the water lily first appearing from Nun through which khepri emerges not to mention the curious transformation of a beetle into a boy...

The legend describes a lotus flower rising from the water. As the lotus flower opens, a scarab is revealed, then metamorphoses into a young boy crying. As his tears fall, they create humanity. We find allusions to this in the Pyramid Texts.

What the scribes often overlooked however is that there was also a frog named Kek sat upon the water lily leaf over seeing the entire process, this may however have been an hallucination induced by the fragrance of the water lily, things are uncertain.

originally posted by: ganjoa

originally posted by: skunkape23
Bob

Church of the SubGenius is it not?
2nd line

ganjoa

It both is and is not.
Bob is everywhere. Bob is everything.
Kill Bob!

Manly P. Hall Lecture linked, he explains in part how ideas were once thought to come from the god's etc. very interesting

www.youtube.com...