Hebrews6;- The promise to Abraham

a reply to: irenialilivenka

Imagine these words are like the Law.

What are my words for? They're to instruct you, right?

But here is what Jesus taught and what Paul seemed to understand more than the others:

These words, like the Law, are more than mere instructions - like Jesus' purpose, these words are meant to lead you, or guide you, to something / someone.

And that something is Father, conception or understanding of the Spirit.


See, if you follow Jesus faithfully, if you follow the Word faithfully, you will walk with God in the Spirit.

Only those who walk with God were justified.


The problem you're having is your understanding of what the Law is, and what it is meant to do, who the Word is, and what he is meant to do - you're not looking at the will or spirit of the words, you're only looking at their rigid literal interpretation. And because of that, you are missing the point.

The Word leads you to Father, He who walks in the Spirit. Only faith will let you walk on waters (in the Spirit), where you need to be.

All the metaphors of the Bible are for people with eyes to see and ears to hear [what the Spirit is saying.]

You can not fulfill the Law if you have ever sinned. The only way is to follow The Way, then you will walk with God, and be justified in the Spirit.


edit: If this post seems like gibberish to you, you're nowhere near where you need to be.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: irenialilivenka

Imagine these words are like the Law.

What are my words for? They're to instruct you, right?

But here is what Jesus taught and what Paul seemed to understand more than the others:

You mean ABSOLUTELY nothing?

Why tell me what I already knew?

These words, like the Law, are more than mere instructions - like Jesus' purpose, these words are meant to lead you, or guide you, to something / someone.

Certainly this is not even meagre evidence that Paul possibly even could have understood at all, Jesus.

Are you suggesting that three years spent with a Prophet of God is LESS of an effective method of teaching than than teachings learned from alleged voices and revelations that didn't actually happen?

If Saul understands better than the TRUE Apostles, it certainly is not in his epistles which betray not the slightest clue of what Jesus actually said or taught.

You are not even close to accurate in your opinion that Saul understood better, he didn't understand AT ALL!!!

And that something is Father, conception or understanding of the Spirit.


See, if you follow Jesus faithfully, if you follow the Word faithfully, you will walk with God in the Spirit.

Only those who walk with God were justified.


The problem you're having is your understanding of what the Law is, and what it is meant to do, who the Word is, and what he is meant to do - you're not looking at the will or spirit of the words, you're only looking at their rigid literal interpretation. And because of that, you are missing the point.

The Word leads you to Father, He who walks in the Spirit. Only faith will let you walk on waters (in the Spirit), where you need to be.

All the metaphors of the Bible are for people with eyes to see and ears to hear [what the Spirit is saying.]

You can not fulfill the Law if you have ever sinned. The only way is to follow The Way, then you will walk with God, and be justified in the Spirit.


edit: If this post seems like gibberish to you, you're nowhere near where you need to be.

It is gibberish, and that is not a reflection on me or where I am or need to be.

Although it is on you. You KNOW it is gibberish and sought to prempt my telling you so or a similar futile strategy.

I look forward to crushing you in debate if you are up to it.

Shalom!

a reply to: Bleeeeep

Quote my words if you want to try and debate me, but you can probably tell my knowledge is not meagre, like your evidence that Paul understood Jesus, possibly better than the men who walked with him IS.

Because it is not as though I said nothing you have access to quoting, and if possible you would refute my statements.

That you didn't is because you can't. You are hyperbolic in essence, not factual.

"Eyes to see", yes this is true. But you don't have them.

Did you even use the Bible?

a reply to: Bleeeeep

Let me begin the debate then.

Paul, and this is glaringly obvious from reading his writings and the writings attributed to him, didn't even KNOW what Jesus taught.

Didn't even know Jesus, he never met the Prophet.

So anyone who thinks he "understood" what Jesus taught, or did more so than the disciples and Apostles who actually knew him and we're taught by him personally, has lost touch with reality and doesn't know how to use the human faculty known as logic.

Indeed, Paul CLAIMS to have had secret revelations, but anyone who understands Mt. 24 is aware "do not believe them" is a warning about Paul and people like him.

The Fundy will claim Mt. 24 is a prophecy about the end of days, but that is absurd as why warn people about people they will never meet in their lifetime?

It is a warning to the disciples that in their lifetime, as is obvious from reading the chapter, a false prophet would emerge in his name deceiving, "if possible, even the elect."

24:23

" If anyone says to YOU, 'Look, he is in the desert", [Damascus road], do not go there; "Look, he is in some hiding place" [in secret, as Paul claims to have received revelations], DO NOT BELIEVE IT;...

Knowing Jesus spoke in parables it is not at all unlikely that "hidden place" or the alt idiom "upper rooms" meaning more or less secret chambers or in secret, is a warning not to believe ANYONE claiming to be a prophet in his name.

24:11

" Many false prophets will arise; THEY WILL DECIEVE MANY, and with the increase of LAWLESSNESS, love in most men will grow cold."

The Law Paul calls "dead" "a curse" and blames for causing sin.

It is only TOO obvious so much so it is a legit miracle Christians don't realize they have been following the teachings of THE false prophet for 2,000 years.

Scholars do, Biblical and secular, even some Orthodox Christian scholars know this, books have been dedicated to the subject, ever since the first century Paul has been thought by some Christians (James, Peter, John, Evionites, Nazarenes) to have been a false apostle, false prophet.

Especially in Syria and Jerusalem.

You are just a Roman Christian is all, sympathetic not in the least to the Jewish origins and original teachings of Jesus or anyone who doesn't espouse anti Semitic doctrines about forsaking Moses and the Law of God.

Even towards Jesus, defender of Mosaic Law.

Which is what he taught the disciples to OBEY.

James, whose Messianic followers were "Zealous for the Law" and probably literal Zealots like Judas and Simon.

You don't understand, because you want to believe that the New Covenant is a revocation of Mosaic Law though Jesus never said anything close, opposite in fact, and unless you are Jewish you never were under it in the first place and don't need Paul to relieve you from the "curse" of the Law.

It only applied to Jews, so Paul teaching JEWS to forsake the Law was on behalf of Rome, his backers.

And pissed the Jews off, Paul even had to lie to James face to...save face. It didn't work.

When a righteous man like Ya'akov the Zaddik says Paul is a "Senseless/empty/vein man" who needs to be told, "Faith without works is dead."

You can believe it.

Consider when he says to treat slave masters, if you were a slave, like "God and Jesus" not as "Men and women."

There is no doubt in my mind that Jesus is speaking of Saul (others too, but we are not debating that).

Damascus=desert/wilderness
Upper rooms/hidden place=secret meetings or revelations that false prophets will claim are from him.

Why don't you show me how a man (if Saul can be defined as such) who never IN ALL FACT met Jesus which nobody disputes, only claims secret revelations, to have 'met' Jesus in the desert/wilderness, though NOTHING in ANY of his writings resembles the teachings of Jesus, could be said with any sincerity to have understood what he didn't even know of?

How?

You probably have never read the Bible cover to cover and just don't know this information, you thinking Paul understood Jesus is the wide road most are on.

I will stay with my narrow path on "The Way."

Do you.

Shalom.

P.S.

It only takes 1 "eye" to see and I don't mean a one eyed man.

Jesus had a name for this "eye"; The "Lamp."

What do lamps do...?

Give light. Paul didn't have "the light" he was blinded only to regain his visual sight, but inner sight he did not have.

He was "Of the evil one." So goes it for all who swear oaths " By ANYTHING in heaven or earth."

Paul takes multiple oaths in God's name and Jesus name that "I lie not."

Obviously, and you know as much if you truly are familiar with his writings, he was being called a liar and false prophet in his own time.

"To a Jew..A Jew, to a gentile, I became a gentile, I became ALL THINGS (liars are things) to ALL men."

Does Paul care about the behavior of his converts? Not unless it involves something he doesn't teach being taught, such as the Gospel of Jesus' about the Kingdom of God.

You know, anything not "My[his] 'gospel.' "

Then he becomes a verbal or letter writing religous bully who, by the way, never repented or felt he had a reason, for murdering Saints.

a reply to: irenialilivenka

Luke 21:
1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

James would probably say something like, "you must give your works to God."

Paul would probably say something like, "the Lord does not want your works, the Lord wants to work through you."

You would probably see their messages as being in conflict, and call Paul a false prophet because you hope to buy your way into Heaven with two mites.

The way to understand the passage is to see the will of Yeshua, the widow, the rich men, and charity.

e.g. Only someone with faith would let the love of God work through them like that, so when the widow gave her works to God, she showed such charity by faith, the love of God working through her, that it pleased the Lord.

What I am trying to get you to see is that love by faith in God is the spirit of the Law and works. If you walk in the Spirit, you will abide by the Law and fulfill works without making them your focus. If the Law, not God, is your focus, you will think to it as salvation, turn to yourself, and die in your sins.

Put literalism out of your mind, and live by the Spirit.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

I specifically asked if you wish to debate quote what I said it is you are debating.

I have read your message. It has nothing of any substance plus a BRIEF quote from Luke.

Go and compare that with the substance in my comments and tell me you are even acknowledging mine.

I will take that as you admitting defeat.

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: irenialilivenka

Luke 21:
1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

James would probably say something like, "you must give your works to God."

What good is probably? I use actual quotes.

Paul would probably say something like, "the Lord does not want your works, the Lord wants to work through you."

Guessing is fine, again though, I deal in ACTUAL quotes from the Bible so...

You would probably see their messages as being in conflict, and call Paul a false prophet because you hope to buy your way into Heaven with two mites.

I don't have one more and don't need it. I am smart enough to spot a false prophet who disagrees with because he never knew, Jesus.

The way to understand the passage is to see the will of Yeshua, the widow, the rich men, and charity.

e.g. Only someone with faith would let the love of God work through them like that, so when the widow gave her works to God, she showed such charity by faith, the love of God working through her, that it pleased the Lord.

What I am trying to get you to see is that love by faith in God is the spirit of the Law and works. If you walk in the Spirit, you will abide by the Law and fulfill works without making them your focus. If the Law, not God, is your focus, you will think to it as salvation, turn to yourself, and die in your sins.

Meaningless rhetoric.

Put literalism out of your mind, and live by the Spirit.

And you close out with typical Fundamental hyperbole.

I only interpret the literal literally, not the mythological.

I simply discarded Paul, and added a great deal of Apocrypha and am quite satisfied, especially the ancient anti Pauline literature of the Jewish Christians of Syria and the Clementine writings

I despise all false prophets, but a false apostle is the king of antichrists and his name is Saulus.

I am WAY beyond that or needing to be told that there is not, when there factually was, a rift with Jerusalem and Pauline factions.

I've labored in study, your simple words are of no use to me.

originally posted by: irenialilivenka
I've labored in study, your simple words are of no use to me.

Matthew 11:
25 It was at that time that Yeshua said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you concealed these things from the sophisticated and educated and revealed them to ordinary folks. 26 Yes, Father, I thank you that it pleased you to do this.

27 “My Father has handed over everything to me. Indeed, no one fully knows the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son wishes to reveal him.

28 “Come to me, all of you who are struggling and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.[a] 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

This is the last time that I tell you, then I will dust off my feet: you must seek God in the Spirit.

Words are the images of conception of will.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

Again I will ask if you wish to debate me select one of my numerous lengthy statements and have at it.

I get it, you are not up to the task.

The rewards of my labored study is that you can't refute my words and don't even try quoting me.

Well, except for that sentence. I have made 10-15 comments full of blasphemy and you can't do nothing to rebuke those heretical words of mine.

Fact, not a question.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

You do know that I know that you are pretending to be "above this debate" shaking me off like dust or whatever, and that you are stumped, right?

Because I do know.

Why not choose an entire quote and tell me my error, you have never done it while I have to you many times.

It is a joy, I understand now why, to get the final word in when you have been telling the truth and are correct because you have studied the subject thoroughly enough, in this case so much more than the Christian.

Who never stood a chance.

"You drove me to it"

Said Paul. Because nothing was his fault not even foolishness or mass murder.