Perceptronium

This presents the works of Max Tegmark in relation to the conclusion that Consciousness is another state of matter....

Tegmark points out that any information stored in a special network known as a Hopfield neural net automatically has this error-correcting facility. However, he calculates that a Hopfield net about the size of the human brain with 10^11 neurons, can only store 37 bits of integrated information.
“This leaves us with an integration paradox: why does the information content of our conscious experience appear to be vastly larger than 37 bits?” asks Tegmark.

That’s a question that many scientists might end up pondering in detail. For Tegmark, this paradox suggests that his mathematical formulation of consciousness is missing a vital ingredient. “This strongly implies that the integration principle must be supplemented by at least one additional principle,” he says. Suggestions please in the comments section!

medium.com... gioins2


Hopfield Networks...

www.comp.leeds.ac.uk...


implied is that the human condition in so far as consciousness. Transcends the matter form simply, due to the perspective of the particle as well as molecular orientation to wave mechanics from the perspective of the matter form.

Consciousness as a State of Matter

Max Tegmark Dept. of Physics & MIT Kavli Institute, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA 02139 (Dated: Accepted for publication in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals March 17, 2015)

We examine the hypothesis that consciousness can be understood as a state of matter, “perceptronium”, with distinctive information processing abilities. We explore four basic principles that may distinguish conscious matter from other physical systems such as solids, liquids and gases: the information, integration, independence and dynamics principles. If such principles can identify conscious entities, then they can help solve the quantum factorization problem: why do conscious observers like us perceive the particular Hilbert space factorization corresponding to classical space (rather than Fourier space, say), and more generally, why do we perceive the world around us as a dynamic hierarchy of objects that are strongly integrated and relatively independent? Tensor factorization of matrices is found to play a central role, and our technical results include a theorem about Hamiltonian separability (defined using Hilbert-Schmidt super operators) being maximized in the energy Eigen basis. Our approach generalizes Giulio Tononi’s integrated information framework for neural-network-based consciousness to arbitrary quantum systems, and we find interesting links to error-correcting codes, condensed matter criticality, and the Quantum Darwinism program, as well as an interesting connection between the emergence of consciousness and the emergence of time.

arxiv.org...


At issue would be that consciousness is an expression of matter in an animated form. One implication is that motion is fundamental and Consciousness is an expression of motion by default in this expression.


In common would be a referent of order.

95% of that just went over my head but it got me interested and so I shall go inform myself.

S&F

a reply to: Kashai

Good thoughts in a wrong direction. His/your/my ego perturb reality.

Almost sounds like he is trying to say we're all one, connected to all to form one.

Almost like earth is a planet, but is really a bunch of atoms arranged in just the right way to form the various dirt, sand, water and us.

a reply to: gription


Pretty much anything that results in change perturbs reality and even when one thinks is reality altered at he quantum scale.


One could even present that words perturb air molecules resulting in effect from the observation of EPR Paradox.

To further elaborate upon my purpose for offering this thread. Is that Brain function in the particle state should effectively translate in an altogether way to its wave state. This in consideration to the comprehension that in essence the processes are the same, despite any conclusion otherwise of which there are actually none at present.

Reasonably an argument would be if natures structure is derived from a wave or particle state?

a reply to: Kashai

Our definition should not confine our definitions.


Entropy is the key. It has nothing to do with the strong nuclear force (gluons).

a reply to: Kashai

Tegmark points out that any information stored in a special network known as a Hopfield neural net automatically has this error-correcting facility. However, he calculates that a Hopfield net about the size of the human brain with 10^11 neurons, can only store 37 bits of integrated information.
“This leaves us with an integration paradox: why does the information content of our conscious experience appear to be vastly larger than 37 bits?” asks Tegmark.

That is just plain wrong, a large Hopfield network can store a large amount of information. And it doesn't just depend on the number of neurons, it also depends on the amount of interconnection between neurons. Tegmark is a smart guy but I cannot buy into his theory of "conscious matter" which he has been pushing for years. Particles obey the laws of particle physics and nothing more.

The Network capacity of the Hopfield network model is determined by neuron amounts and connections within a given network. Therefore, the number of memories that are able to be stored is dependent on neurons and connections. Furthermore, it was shown that the recall accuracy between vectors and nodes was 0.138 (approximately 138 vectors can be recalled from storage for every 1000 nodes) (Hertz et al., 1991). Therefore, it is evident that many mistakes will occur if one tries to store a large number of vectors. When the Hopfield model does not recall the right pattern, it is possible that an intrusion has taken place, since semantically related items tend to confuse the individual, and recollection of the wrong pattern occurs. Therefore, the Hopfield network model is shown to confuse one stored item with that of another upon retrieval. Perfect recalls and high capacity, >0.14, can be loaded in the network by Hebbian learning method.[8][9]

Hopfield Network Capacity

a reply to: gription


Entropy does not destroy information and that would be a point.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Roy Mishali According to Wikipedia (Neuron), each of the one hundred billion neurons in the human brain has on average 7,000 synaptic connections to other neurons.

www.quora.com...

So from 37 bits to what?

I've always kind of suspected that our minds are quantum computers that conduct their calculations in fourier space. I believe mathematically Fourier spaces and Hilbert spaces can always have a one to one onto mapping. Essentially this means that no information is lost when converting the basis of a function from one to the other. The reason we perceive solid objects the way we do might be a result of some sort of transform that is conducted because we interact with the world through the surface of our bodies which contain discrete signal transducers receptors which translate the intensity of a signal into frequencies of action potential's in neurons.

a reply to: Kashai

a reply to: Kashai

I was just reading the actual paper from Tegmark and his calculations show a Hopfield network with a number of synapses equal to the human brain could hold several terabytes of information. He then shows that the amount of integrated information would be 37 bits, which I believe is correct however that's a very different thing from the actual capacity of a Hopfield network, it's more like the number of memories which can be stored if I'm not mistaken, so 37 bits would be like 137 billion memories. Tegmark seem to refer to it as the "conscious bits", which makes sense in a way considering we are constantly recalling memories as part of our conscious experience, and he's right saying that 137 billion seems rather small. However I'd say consciousness isn't quite as simple as a Hopfield network, and our current state of consciousness depends on a large number of factors, which extends our frame of consciousness far beyond 37 bits.

originally posted by: Kashai
This presents the works of Max Tegmark in relation to the conclusion that Consciousness is another state of matter....

Another theory that will fall with the other crap.
Desperate attempts by the conditional ego to 'bind' the unconditional to it's 'dualistic' definitions/boundaries.
Consciousness has no 'boundaries', and conditional 'thought' cannot bind/conceive it, no matter how large your ego!

"Consciousness is the ground of all being!" - Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics
One Universal Consciousness! *__-

tat tvam asi (en.wikipedia.org...)

a reply to: Kashai I agree with that guy Max. Just he is a scientist and tends to speak obscure, and me being an angry type villager trends to simplify things. Thus I would say his vision in my words like so: "we're all crap, world, matter, anti-matter, cats, dogs, society, yakuza, mind, feelings, it's all the same crap" . Have a beer 🍺.

I think 37bit of information could likely represent a small portion of a salamandar brain.

It certainly doesn't represent a human brain.

a reply to: namelesss


I do not see where this actually has anything to do with religion but rather physiology.

This issue is the relates to the paradox offered and the mystery implicated by the data.

Nonetheless Has been getting a lot of negative responses recently but also from Atheist so clearly the issues that he speaks of are controversial to many people.


See when a neuron in the brain fires the wave state that corresponds is of course also reacting. So it would seem then rational to consider that avenue in so far as relating to consciousness. Myself I have been looking into this and consider that this is potentially an unexplored factor that could very well be relevant to understanding why the brain operates the way it does.

To suggest that it must have something to do with the soul is not relevant and what could be relevant is a matter of diagnostics.

Hypothetically consider a technology capable of assessing the status of an object by examining its wave state exclusively.

Granted that is impossible today but the wave state of matter is a physical property by default so therefore at the very least it could be possible.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Consider the wave state of an organism processing information, a mind for all intense and purpose.

Again my impression is that this is unexplored territory that could pertain.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: namelesss


I do not see where this actually has anything to do with religion but rather physiology.

I didn't refer to any 'religion'!

This issue is the relates to the paradox offered and the mystery implicated by the data.

Did you get this from some 'random (fill in the blank) generator'?
Double talk?
Wiseguy?
*__-
This issue is that someone is hypothesizing that the unconditional can have conditions, because he is ignorant (lacks experience) of the unconditional, the transcendental.

Nonetheless Has been getting a lot of negative responses recently but also from Atheist so clearly the issues that he speaks of are controversial to many people.

Isn't that a Law of the Universe; "Everything is arguable, and Is!" - Colonoscopy the Younger
Another Law is the 'First Law of Soul Dynamics'; "For every Perspective, there is an equal and opposite Perspective!"

See when a neuron in the brain fires the wave state that corresponds is of course also reacting. So it would seem then rational to consider that avenue in so far as relating to consciousness. Myself I have been looking into this and consider that this is potentially an unexplored factor that could very well be relevant to understanding why the brain operates the way it does.

That makes sense to me, as relating to brain function.
You seem to be conflating 'brain function' and 'Consciousness', though.
An untenable connection at best, unsupportable.
There has never been demonstrated any 'causal' relationship between the brain and Consciousness, nor can either affect the other. Much closer, the opposite, that Consciousness gives rise to all that is perceived, such as the brain.
Further I have long seen that there is no good research to demonstrate that any 'thoughts' are ever 'stored' in the brain.
Such an 'assumption' fails upon scientific and philosophical examination.

To suggest that it must have something to do with the soul is not relevant and what could be relevant is a matter of diagnostics.

Okay, here is my post, please show me where I'm talking about Souls and religion and such?
"originally posted by: Kashai This presents the works of Max Tegmark in relation to the conclusion that Consciousness is another state of matter.... Another theory that will fall with the other crap. Desperate attempts by the conditional ego to 'bind' the unconditional to it's 'dualistic' definitions/boundaries. Consciousness has no 'boundaries', and conditional 'thought' cannot bind/conceive it, no matter how large your ego! "Consciousness is the ground of all being!" - Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics One Universal Consciousness! *__- tat tvam asi (en.wikipedia.org...)"

Hypothetically consider a technology capable of assessing the status of an object by examining its wave state exclusively.

'Status'?
What do you mean?
Can we not determine such 'status' with our present technology?

Granted that is impossible today but the wave state of matter is a physical property by default so therefore at the very least it could be possible.

'Wave state of 'matter'?
I understand wave state that gives rise to what we perceive as 'matter', but that which is perceived is never other than 'information' waves, Mindstuff. Potential.
There is no more 'matter' than there is a 'mirage', both are make-believe, not as it appears.
And the essential Mindstuff, the 'undifferentiated potential' of Reality, the One unchanging Universe, requires 'Souls' to reflect it into Consciousness, or there can be no existence, no Universe, no Self-Knowledge.
No BRAINZ! *__-

"One implication is that motion is fundamental"

~~~ Unfortunately, 'motion' is impossible, other than as an 'appearance', like a mirage.
No motion (therefore) no 'time'!
Zeno proved it first, I think!

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Agree, he's fixated on this but I see no reason to posit a new state of matter that can't be isolated and shown to exist. It's way hokier than dark matter.