What did Allah ever suffer. Was his prophet ever crucified, publicly shamed, or beaten?

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

It takes few words to explain.

Allah is God is Elohim is Yahweh.

End of story.

a reply to: irenialilivenka

No one is arguing about how the word translates into another language. I am saying what is meant by the words is different. If you can't understand such a basic concept I really will just have to agree to disagree because you can't argue with irrationality.

a reply to: Sahabi

Jesus did say, "Do not think that I came to bring peace, but a sword."

This prophecy could very well have been fulfilled in Mohammed who brought both peace and the sword, and truthfully this is exactly what the Jews in the first century wanted in a Messiah.

Revelation foretells the rise and fall of Rome with the rise being the dispersal of the Jews and the fall being a victory.

Around the time Rome was collapsing came Mohammed from that unconquered land of Arabia. You probably know the story better than I do but let us both be honest.

Every Muslim nation that hosted Jews gave them sanctuary, and Christians who happened to live in the Mid East and Palestine also were treated fairly.

Could Mohammed have been fulfilling the sword prophecy of Christ that actually was good for the Jewish people? And unless you were Roman good for Christianity too.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: irenialilivenka

No one is arguing about how the word translates into another language. I am saying what is meant by the words is different. If you can't understand such a basic concept I really will just have to agree to disagree because you can't argue with irrationality.

Aren't we discussing whether or not the God of Islam is the same as in Judaism?

Most of the stories in the Qur'an are borrowed from the Torah and discuss events like the plagues of Exodus.

The God of Torah is far more cruel, though than the God of the Qur'an, this is attributed to falsification of scripture.

Eve is blamed in Genesis for the first sin, in the Qur'an equal blame is given Adam and Eve.

I don't know how you could argue that the God of Abraham is not the God of Islam. Allah is God in Arabic Christianity so you have no reason to think this, never mind because Allah is different and worse.

It is simply a falsehood.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: irenialilivenka

Actually, as is obvious, the OP is not aware that 3 religions who revere Abraham as their patriarch, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, share the same basic beliefs and the EXACT same God.

They are all Abrahamic faiths, but you cannot say they believe in the exact same God

I can, am and they are the same and believe in the same God. The God of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed.

It's a fact so why would I not be able to "say they believe in the...Same God" when they in fact do.

Stories in the Torah are repeated in the Qur'an as well as the New Testament and some Apocrypha no longer in use.

It's not something you can just say is not true, they ARE worshipping the exact same God.

as they attribute different fundamental attributes to the being, although they share quite a few of those as well.

What they share, Yahweh-Elohim/Allah, is far more important than disbelief in the Trinity with Jesus as God instead of just the Messiah or in the case of Judaism believing Jesus was a sorcerer, these are people.

God being the same is what matters. If you can't get past a little thing like Jesus being not God just the Messiah or the Rabbinical rejection of him as Messiah it is your problem but changes not a thing.

For example, the triune nature of God is considered heresy in Islam, because Muslims recognize that a being with such a nature would not be the type of being they are referring to when they say "Allah". They aren't the identical concepts from a logical stand point.

They believe in one God, Abraham's God, Moses's God, Jesus' God and Mohammed's God. And?

How someone could not know that the Abrahamic religions worshipping the same God is a fact recognized by all honest theologians and scholars is beyond me.

They all recognize that they are Abrahamic religions, but as I said above, the fundamental attributes of the Islamic God and the Biblical God are very different.

They have the EXACT same attributes, same or similar stories about the same Prophets, with a few different Prophets being the exception. You are mistaken

1.5 billion Abrahamic revering, Jesus loving Muslims might take issue with being told that their God is not the same as Christians or Jews.

www.pewresearch.org...

a Pew Research Center survey of Muslims in 39 countries asked Muslims whether they want sharia law, a legal code based on the Quran and other Islamic scripture, to be the official law of the land in their country.

Most Muslims in Afghanistan (99%), Iraq (91%), Pakistan (84%), Indonesia(72%), Egypt(74%), Thailand(77%), Malaysia(86%), Bangladesh(82%), Morocco(83%). Niger(86%), Palestinian territories(89%) support sharia law as official law just to name a few of them..

And this proves a different God how?

Run the numbers and you'll find that more that half of the muslim population believes that I should be killed if I refuse a tax.

This is what is called an alternative fact. A lie.

Show us the proof.

More than half the muslim population believes

You don't know what half or even five percent of what Muslims believe.

that I should go to jail for sharing my faith.

That would violate the Qur'an and is a lie.

More than half the muslim population believe

You keep saying "more than half believe" Where is the proof?

my life is worth 2/3 to a 1/2 as much as a muslim life. For atheist it is even worse, they believe atheist are only 1/15th of a muslim's life. So I don't think you can quite say they are Jesus loving muslims. Or that homosexuals should be killed the list of atrocious moral beliefs in a Sharia go on and on on. Yet most muslims are advocates of this. So not sure we can call them Jesus loving but...

Fool.

a reply to: irenialilivenka

That is very interesting and I've never considered it. I never correlated Mumahhad with Jesus' sword, because Muhammad and his successors forcefully converted, subjugated under tribute alms, executed, and exiled all of the major Jewish and Christian communities from the Arabian peninsula.

Thanks for giving me something to think about

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Ask yourself, "How many Muslims do I know intimately enough to know what they think of me?"

Follow up with, "How many of these people want to harm me or anyone?"

And you will have the sum total of Muslims w of whom you know their beliefs about you or anyone for that matter.

Ask yourself, "How many Muslim nations have I formerly resided in?"

"How has Islam impacted my life?"

"How do I think I know the thoughts of 750,000,000 people?"

"Why am I indoctrinated to hate people who I don't know who don't wish me any Ill, though I pretend otherwise?"

"Why do I pretend otherwise?"

a reply to: irenialilivenka

You had me agreeing, but lost me on the last two; they are loaded questions.

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: irenialilivenka

That is very interesting and I've never considered it. I never correlated Mumahhad with Jesus' sword, because Muhammad and his successors forcefully converted, subjugated under tribute alms, executed, and exiled all of the major Jewish and Christian communities from the Arabian peninsula.

Thanks for giving me something to think about

Your welcome.

Mohammed and his ways sound very much like Joshua, servant of Moses and general of the Canaan conquest.

I got the idea, and it is my idea, while reading the Gospel of Barnabas. If you need a link I have a great one with Qur'an comparison and Islamic commentary.

I will do it anyway I just have to write it down....

barnabas.net/index.php/chapters/386-1-true-gospel-of-jesus

I don't remember if the sword quote is from here or even what made me contemplate Mohammed as the sword of Jesus prophecy fulfilled but what it did was restore Jesus to his rightful Messianic Prophetic status, exclude Paul and all but reestablish Nazarene Judaism with his own flair.

The deification of Christ was a Roman slap in the face to the deemed heretical Nazarenes who struck back with Mohammed.

I am glad you enjoyed my theory!

a reply to: Sahabi

Maybe Mohammed did those things, I heard otherwise and the Qur'an suggests otherwise, but you know more than me about Mohammed. I heard as much as a warrior can be he was honorable and didn't subjugate people of the scripture.

He would be in violation of his own instructions, and it doesn't fit with the "Nothing to fear, no grief on Judgement Day" policy and others like it in the Qur'an.

But war changes people, look at Joshua!!!

Anyhow, it is well known of all people of the East Muslims treated Jews the best. Baghdad had a large Jewish population before 2003 and Babylon was the center of Jewry in diaspora while Jerusalem was once again a sanctuary for the Jews and all Abrahamic faiths, also the Mandaeans.

Same goes for 1966-67 before the invasion regarding Jews


The only beef Jews have with Islam was the forced conversion of the "Messiah" Svi.

Today the Donmeh try getting official recognition as Jews under the law of return and get denied.

But they get denied for being open about their Sabbatean Frankists beliefs, others hide it.

I like the Hasids. I think they are a product of Islamic ressurection of Aristotelian and Platonic/Plotinus Greek Wisdom and that inspired the Zohar which the Hasids cling to, as do I though I am not Jewish.

At least the emanations part which seems to be ladder commentary more than Zohar original writing.

a reply to: irenialilivenka

I gave you the poll. I know its hard when someone gives you facts, but everything I said is incorporated within the concept of Sharia. The majority of muslims are advocates for Sharia law, according to pew research not me. Sorry, but facts don't care about your feelings.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

You didn't give me anything but b.s.

Answer the above questions or give up.

a reply to: irenialilivenka

I know it's hard when simple logic like the fact that you don't know half of all Muslims, makes you look foolish, that stupid polls conducted by who knows mean nothing, that you hate people that don't hate you and are so paranoid you think a religion is out to get you.

I am sorry you haven't caught on to the scam and are ensconced in radical fundamentalism.

Also the latest terror attacks have been committed by Christians on Mosques and plans have been thwarted by the Feds to kill Muslims. Christians are no less radical, 1 for 1, than Muslims.

Poll that, creep.

a reply to: irenialilivenka

I know it's hard when simple logic like the fact that you don't know half of all Muslims, makes you look foolish, that stupid polls conducted by who knows mean nothing, that you hate people that don't hate you and are so paranoid you think a religion is out to get you. I am sorry you haven't caught on to the scam and are ensconced in radical fundamentalism. Also the latest terror attacks have been committed by Christians on Mosques and plans have been thwarted by the Feds to kill Muslims. Christians are no less radical, 1 for 1, than Muslims. Poll that, creep.

You just asserted that Christians are just as radical...and then failed to provide any statistics backing up that assertion...

The fact is a fundamental rule of thought is the law of identity. That is symbolized as A=A, and stated as "something is itself." When I say God or Allah or Elohim or Yehoshua, the set of fundamental attributes I ascribe to this entity is different from the fundamental set of attributes a muslim ascribes to the entity when they use the same words. That is my point. Yet you try to make about semantics. I am not talking about the words, I am talking about their referent. The referent is different. I am making a case based in predicate logic and ontology. Yours is nothing but pure rhetoric.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I have a gut feeling everything you spout, all of the nonsense about how Muslims allegedly feel about you, is actually how you feel about them.

It's not OK, but get it out of your system, it's not Islam or Muslims you hate, you obviously don't associate with any and can't know Islam without knowing Muslims. And you can't hate what you don't know (in reality).

It's YOU.

Which is why you take to the Internet to spread lies about over a billion people who you have never met and don't know.

I know I don't see any Muslims on here spouting hate propaganda against Christians.

Just sorry old you.

Poor baby, so full of the hate you imagine others have for you, for them.

For reasons that aren't true.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

You are scared to answer my questions, correct?

I like to call people like you the God police, making sure to always have a religion you can plant evidence on as worshippers of some other god than they do and accuse the many for the deeds of the few.

All to distract from the corruption within your department you engage in religious (or racial) profiling aka Muslims or Arabs are terrorists.

If you said all black people are gang bangers you'd be racist.

So what is the difference with Islam and the lies you are spewing?

Religionism is equal to racism.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

A real Christian loves his enemies, and Muslims are not even your enemies but you still hate them.

A real Christian knows how to separate the minority of Muslims who are militant from the majority peace loving Muslims who are victims of war in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan.

A real Christian mourns the deaths of Muslim civilians killed in drone strikes and focuses on the good in Islam and not the minority of bad people who are Muslim.

You are not a real Christian by Jesus' standards.

a reply to: irenialilivenka

A simple google search shows otherwise, you only mentioned one pagan aspect of Islam. I kept it simple, but it's true there are many more influences, Islam is just another bastardized fake religion.

wikiislam.net...

a reply to: irenialilivenka

I have a gut feeling everything you spout, all of the nonsense about how Muslims allegedly feel about you, is actually how you feel about them.

Nonsense? I simply said what the poll showed. That isn't nonsense. That is statistics and facts about the doctrine of Islam.

The Qur'an claims to be clear on what it teaches:

Qur'an 6:114 - Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?

Qur'an 11:1 - Alif, Lam, Ra. [This is] a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted.

Qur'an 12:1 - These are verses of the clear Book.

Qur'an 16:89 - And We have sent down to you the Book as clarification for all things and as guidance and mercy and good tidings for the Muslims.

Qur'an 27:1 - a, Seen. These are the verses of the Qur'an and a clear Book

Islam means submission, and here is what it says about submitting to Allah:

Qur'an 33:36 - It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.

You can't even have resistance within yourself against his commands:

Qur'an 4:65 - But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission.

The pattern of conduct for a Muslim, according to the doctrine of Islam, is Muhammad:

Qur'an 33:21 - There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.

Muhammad's example(i.e. pattern of conduct for a devout Muslim or one who has truly submitted to Allah):

Sahih al-Bukhari 2797 - The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is! Were it not for some men amongst the believers who dislike to be left behind me and whom I cannot provide with means of conveyance, I would certainly never remain behind any Sariya' (army-unit) setting out in Allah's Cause. By Him in Whose Hands my life is! I would love to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred.

Sahih al-Bukhari 2785 - A man came to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and said, "Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward)." He replied, "I do not find such a deed."

Sahih Muslim 33 - It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah said, "I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah."

Sahih Bukhari- "My livelihood is under the shade of my spear, and he who disobeys my orders will be humiliated by paying Jizyah."

Allah's command's:

Surah 9:29 - Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Qu'ran 9:73 – “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.”

Qur'an 48:29 - Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves.

Qur'an 47:35 - So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior; and Allah is with you and will never deprive you of [the reward of] your deeds.

Qu'ran 47:35 is crucial for understanding what Muhammad exemplified and Allah commanded. You are to preach a message of peace until you should be uppermost. That is until you have the numbers, then you should violently subjugate the people of the Book and the nonbelievers.

This brings me back to my original point. The ideology is dangerous. I am not saying every Muslim believes this, but according to the pew research poll most do advocate for Sharia law, a political ideology based around the Qu'ran, Hadith, and Fatwas. This is dangerous. Quote from Maajid Nawaz:

"We Muslims must admit there are challenging Koranic passages that require reinterpretation today. Let us use existing tools of exegesis, such as specificity, restriction, abrogation and metaphor. Vacuous literalism as an interpretive method must be abandoned. It is bankrupt. Only by rejecting vacuous literalism are we able to condemn, in principle, ISIS-style slavery, beheading, lashing, amputation and other medieval practices forever (all of which are in the Quran). This is a struggle within Islam. Reformers either win, and get religion-neutral politics, or lose, and get ISIL-style theocracy."

Nawaz admits himself that when taking these verse literally, you come out with something like ISIS. You want to make this about race when it is about ideology.

originally posted by: GodEmperor
a reply to: irenialilivenka

A simple google search shows otherwise, you only mentioned one pagan aspect of Islam. I kept it simple, but it's true there are many more influences, Islam is just another bastardized fake religion.

wikiislam.net...

"Bastardized, fake religion."

How positive. And just your opinion, not a factual statement. Paganism and Islam are oil and water, it is truly (along with Parseeism) the purest monotheistic religion there is.

Let us hear about those "many more [pagan] influences" of which you speak.

Keep in mind paganism is nature worship, not the worship of multiple gods which is polytheism, neither of which Islam can be described as.

The closest you will come is the monotheistic Sufis who aren't pagan or poly., just open minded.

The opposite of you.