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The inherit flaw of the NHS and will America fall down the same trap?

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posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 05:01 AM
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The NHS, One of the greatest achievements in history

But is the NHS inherently flawed?

Two days ago I watched the debate between Ted Cruz and Bernie Sanders, from the get go it was a one horse race. Ted Cruz was factual and engaging leaving Bernie in a stuttering mess insulting small business owners left right and centre.

Now as I’m watching I begin to think of my own countries health care debate, which is whether we should privatize the NHS.

For those who don’t live in the UK the NHS is a free health care service for all UK residence, whether it +is cancer treatment or antibiotics it’s all free. Although of course anyone who pays tax also pays National Insurance which a percentage is used for funding the NHS. The only exception to this “tax” is if you’re on government benefits, retired or jobless but you still get the same treatment.



Now for me the NHS is incredible, why doesn’t America want that?! Why don’t they support Bernie more?! Then I looked at the facts, then I watched
the debate, then I began to see exactly why Obama Care and the NHS are fundamentally flawed.

When you give people a free safety net it is used and abused until the supply can no longer meet demand.

“Hey live however unhealthy you want! And when you’re about to drop, don’t worry because the free service will have your back”

62.9% of UK adults are obese compared to the US 35.7%

I believe this is because the threat of paying out for medical care in the UK is non-existing!

19% of UK adults smoke compared the 15% in the US

Now we can argue societal differences all day but the main contributor to living healthy is consequences, and as a UK citizen I can say there is no financial consequence for living an un-healthy lifestyle.

“But Amnicks what about the healthy people who get sick and need the free treatment!”

YES what about those people? They suffer! They suffer due to the abused free healthcare by people who misuse the service. I can give a personal anecdote but many other people have similar stories, I waited 5 hours to be seen at A&E with a broken leg whilst I counted 50% of people waiting who looked

1. Personally healthy
2. Slight cough or sniffle
3. Drunk
4. Or waiting because you can’t get a convenient appointment with a GP other than admitting yourself to A&E

A&E isn’t the only main issue, its treatment times, quality of treatment, after care and GP appointment availability. This all creates the downfall of the NHS.

This morning there was a nice bit of propaganda on sky news to get the people used to the knowledge of the NHS Downfall. They showed a real time
counter of the cost the NHS has had on the UK since the start of the show. I think it was up to 100,000,000 by the time I left for work.



Very soon I believe the NHS will be privatised and I hope we can somewhat redeem and fix this inherit problem with free health care.



So what do we think ATS? Is the NHS on course for disaster and will the USA follow in our footsteps?




posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 05:09 AM
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a reply to: AMNicks

You waited five hours to be seen with a broken leg. That might answer your question. The problems in bureaucracy are always increasing and cumulative as well. It is a function of government for all intents and purposes. The system that evolves to protect it's jobs above and beyond your health will necessarily become abusive. Look for forced euthanasia to become the norm and be polite to the nurses.



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 05:11 AM
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Currently pretty much all medical advances and Innovations come from America. If we start doing socialist medicine, that is going to end. Who is going to make all the advancements at that point?



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 05:20 AM
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I dont mean to be that guy to instantly derail a thread (this will be the first time in some time). But the fat stat that people keep throwing around does slightly anger me. It almost like "hey 69% of adults are fat, so they must not pay tax in any shape or form, no NI, so lets lay into them". Im fat (not overweight, fat.. and yes, I am loosing weight, but I am still happy with myself), I work between 40-70 hours a week to keep a roof over my families head. I have had 2 hospital visits in 4 years, one of which resulted in a operation but had nothing to do with my weight. I dont go to the doctors every week (last time I went was for my daughter, personally it was 3 years ago), I dont take any prescription drugs.

Yet, because of my size, I am seen as a drain on the system.

Weight is not caused by free health care, its caused by junk food being much cheaper to buy in bulk (processed meats etc) and quicker to cook.

The issue is that a NHS style health care system could not work anymore due to how long HMO's etc have been in play (Nixon you cheeky bast*ard!), there is too much money in over all insurance companies and money going back to big pharma due to extortionate prices for basic med's.

Obama care was doomed from the word go as it still worked on the insurance model (yes I know there is "free" health care in america but from what I understand its only excepted in X hospitals and Y surgeries). The issue with the NHS is thus:

All the money being pumped into it is very poorly managed, large amount of management and red tape stop the money trickling down to improve services. The treatment and pay the staff get is disgusting for the role they pay so we have less and less UK born nurses and doctors, they either get into other aspects of the job or go private themselves to earn money, the new staff from oversea's is then treated poorly by a small % of the population which then leads to a decline in service and numbers again.

Whilst the upper management sits there on their hands laughing at all their money.



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 05:24 AM
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a reply to: thekaboose

I agree, but your not the problem nor is your case the NHS issue.

When you have a free system, that costs more than it brings in it will eventually fail.

So is privatizing the answer?

would this cause enough of an incentive for people who abuse the system to stop and for the quality of care to increase, thus improving business?



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 05:31 AM
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a reply to: AMNicks

Fix the NHS by which you mean let the sick whom can not afford treatment DIE.

First off the reason the NHS is run down is because it is now a two tier health system with all NHS hospitals' also playing host private BUPA and other wing's and the doctor's whom are supposed to be working FOR the NHS also working for these private paying patient's.

This in and of itself promoted a two class system, the state health care which we do pay for and by the way those on benefit's as in my case worked for years paying into the system and INCREASED waiting time's for NHS patient's as the same doctor's place the private patient's first in all thing's.

Then you have the Right wing (Economic) vested interests, why do people get into politics anyway as almost all politician's are lacking real world experience and have walked in that closet circle for most of there lives, some for a career and other's as a path to power and power for it's own sake so they can do what THEY want.

New Labour was simply Tory light and Blur et al started the sell of the NHS with there disgusting decentralization of the service and potting it out as NHS trust's each of which of course had a very well paying chief executive usually with nill medical experience and no sense of what it was really like at the level of those that actually worked as health professional's, they also did this with the regional authority's and we also had corruption in the form of Chief Executives in these devolved authority's whom no longer had the oversight and check's necessary to make certain that the money THEY were then allowed to raise themselves through council tax was spent correctly, my niece for example whom now works as an administrator for a southern university once worked for the chief executive of a northern council and he and his staff would take regular flight's almost every week to a private spa in London at the tax payer's expense, oh and that was a Tory council by the way.

So the NHS is being railroaded by right wing economic politician's and the influx of private health care providers eager to bite off as much profit as they could at our expense and whom were actually invited in to take some of the alleged strain but in fact as can be seen clearly this was actually an act of deliberate pre privatization, sabotaging a system that was working very well at the time and indeed the right wing economic political act of deliberate planting of a system of private entity's ready to take over the NHS once the damage reached breaking point, did you know that one of the most desirable market's for foreign health company's which they have longed to take over for many years is the NHS and the only way they could do this was to ensure it's demise.

Let me point this out also, after war - weapon's manufacturing the HEALTH care of the world used to be the highest grossing industry on the planet and now it is ranked higher than war because like war it has such a vast turn over.

WE are being lied to.
NEW LABOUR and the TORY's were only ever in it for themselves and the NHS has been systematically and DELIBERATELY run down while private enterprise has been invited in, after all those MP's most often have vast hidden investment's in hedge fund's and guess what is one of the number one investment opportunity's for hedge fund's.
You guessed it, private health care.


So as for the YANK's, only if they let corrupt leaders get there hand's on it after it is set up CORRECTLY and without Flaw's as our NHS WAS set up before the rot was deliberately introduced (for Vested interest's).

edit on 9-2-2017 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 05:39 AM
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1, The NHS is not free, We pay for it with tax and national insurance.
2, IF you want to pay £600 for a £1 bag of saline solution then ye go for privatisation.
3, If you want to take the risk that your insurance company you have payed to cover you in the event of illness only to find out that Cancer is not deemed as life threatening and they wont cover the cost of your treatment then ye go for privatisation.
4, If you cant afford the insurance premiums or keep up with the insurance premiums for whatever reason, then expect to stand in a line from around 02:00 till about 18:00 maybe even longer to be seen by a charity hospital like they do in the US.

Never ever underestimate what we have here in this country. The Tories are slowly but surely trying to privatise the whole of the NHS, What will be the tipping point when the people say, Enough!!!.?






posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 05:44 AM
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PS, I was friends with a guy from the US who's grandson was left with brain damage after a car accident. The last i spoke with him the medical bill was around $4 million and climbing.



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 05:48 AM
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Yup, let's just blame it all on smokers and fat people. Let's not look at the free health service tourists who come here specifically to get free treatment, and the lack of follow up to claim back the cost from that person's country. Let's not look at the incredibly high salaries for the pen pushers at the top. Let's not look at how big pharma rips us off for the cost of drugs, or how our government rips us off by awarding contracts for certain units to more expensive companies than to the less expensive already established NHS unit, possibly due to conflicts of interest and personal gain for that MP. Let's not look at the lack of funding being put into staff, training etc, whilst millions are squandered by our government on useless projects like teaching kids in China how to play football, large and ugly art installations and projects, scrapping perfectly good military vessels and equipment to then build a replacement. Let's not encourage people to go to the pharmacist in the first instance, who can diagnose up to a certain level of ailments, and if they then think it out with their scope, will recommend a doctors appointment. Let's not look at all the broken legs and body damage done by over ambitious dare Devils and sporty types ( hundreds of ' fail' vids on YouTube demonstrate a percentage of this category) that end up in A&E. Let's not look at how, perhaps, our government, who is corporate controlled, might actually want to crash the NHS, and is therefore deliberately making decisions which are making matters worse for staff and patients, whilst bringing in private companies by the back door, in order to bring in a fully private health system for their corporate buddies (and possibly self interest if they have ties to those companies), and so offering the only solution to the disaster they engineered in the first place.
Nope, let's just blame it all on bad lifestyle, the fat people and the smokers. That sounds like rhetoric pushed by the government.


ETA. I see those who replied as I was typing also have made some of same observations as myself. Privatisation is a bad plan, however, if you have the money to go private then fair enough, but this is not a system that should be forced onto the rest of us.
edit on 9-2-2017 by CthulhuMythos because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 05:50 AM
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a reply to: Soloprotocol

Absolutely true, they though are banking on the people being too stupid to realize, remember the Tory peer whom was urging Cameron to cut the state pension when many pensioners already don't get enough to live on and he actually said "By the time they realize what we have done they won't remember who to blame anyway".

The way they are working it so to erode and destroy our public service's and then to put the blame on economics knowing full well the majority of the public are like sheep and easily led by there lie's.

Library closure's, Remploy and disabled facility's axed, mentally ill patient's forced back into the community in some cases even though they are dangerous, private prison service being brought in and the ground cleared for police privatization even though that particular one has been put almost on hold etc.

The Tory's have this dream, an imaginary utopia for the rich were the common man knows his place and bow's to them as they regard themselves as his betters and were the useless elderly poor die off through natural wastage (Starvation and disease - hey Liverpool care pathway - supposed care were they starve them then dehydrate them and call it kidney failure) and only the strong and virile sheep remain to do the menial task's.

edit on 9-2-2017 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 05:51 AM
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a reply to: Soloprotocol

We have the same system in Canada, and people are always saying we get 'free healthcare'. It isn't 'free'; we pay into it collectively through taxation. It's a system that has its ups and downs, but I personally feel that it works better than any other system. Conversely, I also realize that it isn't my place to say Americans would be better off adopting a similar system; what works for one country won't necessarily achieve the same result for another country.



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 05:56 AM
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a reply to: Xaphan

Same system here in Australia , i seem to recall its based on the UK system . It is not perfect , but if you need treatment real quick you get it .



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 05:56 AM
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originally posted by: TheBulk
Currently pretty much all medical advances and Innovations come from America. If we start doing socialist medicine, that is going to end. Who is going to make all the advancements at that point?


Emmmm no they didn't, penicillin for example is a Scottish invention.

Sure America has contributed some amazing advances but please don't try to pretend that pretty much all of it has came from America because a quick google search will prove otherwise
edit on 9-2-2017 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 06:42 AM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: TheBulk
Currently pretty much all medical advances and Innovations come from America. If we start doing socialist medicine, that is going to end. Who is going to make all the advancements at that point?


Emmmm no they didn't, penicillin for example is a Scottish invention.

Sure America has contributed some amazing advances but please don't try to pretend that pretty much all of it has came from America because a quick google search will prove otherwise

Correct. It was a Scottish discovery.
It might be worth mentioning that a different country developed the means to mass produce it.
International cooperation is a wonderful thing when it happens.



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 06:47 AM
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a reply to: AMNicks

I want to make something clear.

If the UK ever attempts a full and overt privatisation of the NHS, it will be illegitimate, and against the will of the majority of Britons. It will give rise to such unrest as to border on revolution. It will make what happens at American protests look like a bake sale.



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 06:51 AM
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So figured i would give my take on this as I work within the NHS.

The problem is not that its free because its not free we pay for it through our tax's, it is however free at the point of use.

The problem is due to the massive cuts the NHS and social services are undergoing. So for example you had to wait 5 hours in A&E for a broken leg. This makes me think about a few things, firstly a broken leg can be dealt with at the Minor Injuries Unit however over the past few years loads of them have been closing down and thus increasing demand on A&E. Then I also wonder about the bed situation within the hospital you were in, at any one time in the average hospital just now there are something like 20 patients who are fit for discharge but can't be due to lack of social services. This creates a problem that backs up all the way back to the doors of A&E and you wind up sitting about with your broken leg for hours all because of a problem further down the line outside of A&E.

Another issue I wonder about is staffing, the NHS is awful at managing staff and this goes from the very top to the very bottom. For example the government recently the government took away the nurses bursary and the result has been a 25% drop in applicants so this is now leading to massive shortages of staff. The whole agenda for change system is a joke. Not only that but the levels of stress staff are under is immense leading to more sickness and higher staff turnover so you might have also been sitting in A&E for hours because of a lack of staff.

Funding is definitely a massive problem I personally think that the health of the nation should be a funding priority so when i see a £12 Billion foreign aid budget or £205 Billion on replacing trident I start to wonder what the NHS could do with that extra cash. Funding is being cut, the government are very good at saying they are not cutting front line NHS services but that's utter rubbish. When you see MIU's shutting down, maternity units closing, cuts in mental heath, you can't get a GP appointment because there are not enough GP's or you pull money from training programs all at a time when social services are being cut then the NHS grinds to a halt.

Then we also have how the funds are being used, if you get a prescription for paracetamol that's going to cost the NHS about four times as much as if you went down to boots for it. There are way to many managers who get paid a small fortune to sit in meetings all day introducing the most moronic policies. NHS trusts are spending millions of taxpayers money paying for IT systems that nobody understands or really wants. There are lots of inefficiencies in they NHS.

So I do not think privatisation is the answer the answer is to increase funding and to change the way the NHS works. I do think that some charging should be introduced, for example the free prescriptions in Scotland should be scrapped. I think if you miss appointments with out giving notice you should be fined and I also think that if you are obviously misusing the service there should be fines such as heading off to A&E for breaking a nail (no joke this happens). So there are some elements of charges that could be introduced that I think would help take the pressure off the service and at the same time feed back into NHS funding.

Fixing the NHS however is a huge challenge. I dont know exactly how you fix it only that privatisation is not the answer.



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 06:52 AM
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a reply to: AMNicks

why are you lying ?


62.9% of UK adults are obese compared to the US 35.7%


you used the UK figure for " over weight " [ BMI > 25 ]

then slipped in the US figure for obese [ BMI > 30 ]

i have an urge to stick a fork in you - not because you are done - but just because



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 06:58 AM
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a reply to: Xaphan

When we see figures of $63,000 for medical/Sugical supplies and $135,000 for pharmacy, as an insurance company would you not be questioning what Medical/surgical supplies and drugs they are talking about.? How can anyone justtify these figures.?
The figures for private medical are a joke. Nice work if you can get it though.
edit on 9-2-2017 by Soloprotocol because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 07:00 AM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Where do you stand on the Likes of Trident replacement and the cost of war.?
edit on 9-2-2017 by Soloprotocol because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 9 2017 @ 07:03 AM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

Same old Tories. Run the system into the ground and the people will be fooled into the idea that in private hands the NHS would be a better option. No it wont.




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