I see the pictures of Iran and it brings me great hope. If things keep up like that there will be no need to invade Iran because the people there will become democratic on their own. They already have 2 fledgeling democracies on their borders that have just had elections. If there is that much industry and commercialism occuring there, I would doubt that the fundamentalists in the government will be able to keep their strangle hold on the population too much longer. The students that took over the country 30 years ago or so are now getting old and the students of this age want nothing to do with them. I think the moderator posted some links to back this up about 3 pages back.

As far as some of the posts before, they just make me sad. Explain to me where we have bombed cities killing 100,000's as someone asserted earlier or are we talking about WWII? Also, there is a lot of debt, but its not a new situation. If you want to take it down that route I don't hear the U.S. government calling in its chips for whats owed from what the U.S. shouldered in the Marshall Plan and a lot of the people posting about how horrible we are would be in far different situations if we had not stepped in then and a few times before that. So lets look at Bagdad in 10 years from now with a democratic system, beautiful cities, and without that pesky little stain of genocide and rape rooms for those that don't agree with the leader.

So what all this is like a crusade for democracy? Are we gonna get numbers tatooed if we dont like democracy?

Well if I remember correctly there were just elections in Iraq so that the people of Iraq could choose an interim government and then design whatever type of government they see fit. We take the risk of it being one thats not friendly to the United States, but its a risk that is worth taking. By democracy I mean that the people there have a choice in the matter now. They have FREEDOM. The same freedom you have in one way or the other to sit at your computer and make posts that assert that you know better then 25 million people and therefore they shouldn't be given the opportunity to pick their government and should be subject to being raped, dismembered, or killed at the whim of a dictator. Stop the venom and the knee jerk reaction, step back, and realize that your hate is blinding you from a good thing. The difference between now and when the governments that we have toppled were in power is now the majority has a chance to pick their government, not have it opposed on them by a fanatical or militarily superior minority.

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by Nerdling
I can't see the pictures

I've heard parts of Lebanon are also quite beautiful.

I also understand that Beirut was also an incredible city prior to all of the violence and wars. The whole area one it becomes more stable would make for an incredible trip. From the Bekka Valley to just about anywhere.

I recently visited there. It is much more stable politically than many would have you believe. I went to a protest in downtown Beirut against Syrian occupation, and we weren't shot with rubber bullets or pepper spray. Which is more than I can say for some other places. Portland, anyone?

The Bekaa valley is beautiful. Beirut has been rebuilt very well. Monot street, ashrafieh, downtown, it is all amazing. Great nightlife, as well. I also went to Baalbek, the huge roman ruins. They have a still-standing temple of Jupiter. The base itself that the temple is built on is 6 meters tall. Just the cement slab that the temple is built on! Its massive.

What I found incredible was that in spring, you could go skiing in the morning, and then go to the beach in the afternoon. There are some snow resorts where they hardly ever see all the snow melting, even in summer!

I would recommend lebanon to anyone as a fantastic destination.

Wow Siroos

You picked apart my post like a professional, coodos.


Doesn't change anything...the Iranian government is going south...and they deserve everything that they are going to get


Oh, wait,

That wasn't a "Death to America" painted on the side of that Iranian missile i saw....that was a "Peace to the World"

All this "they've got them and we need to defend ourselves" talk is complete and utter rubbish.

couldn't agree more. However, it is Israel that defends its continued and aggressive nuclear weapon development program with this tired rhetoric.

All it cares about is surviving and the only way it has survived is by sitting under a nuclear umbrella that keeps away all of the nasty, repressive, despotic little regimes such as your own.

*falls off chair* lmao!

Israel has REPEATEDLY transgressed against numerous Arab nations. Under the arch-terrorist Sharon, this has only intensified. Its very existence is testament to the contempt with which the western world views the palestinian people and the arabs in general.

Now, Israel has turned to full-blown apatheid to put down the legitimate palestinian resistance. I agree that the jewish people have a right to a homeland, but not at the expense of the native Palestinian population.

And yet the one-sided rhetoric peddled by the friends of Israel in the US continued to ignore the palestinian crisis while they praise Israel for its restraint.

[edit on 1-2-2005 by General Zapata]

Looks gorgeous over there. I don't think the problem here is with the majority of the Iranian citizens as much as it is with the leaders. The concern is over the countries ability to use nuclear weapons in the future. I hope it will be worked out through mediation. I also would hope the people of the country would push back against their leaders a little more. Toying with President Bush isn't a smart idea. He is not immune to making irrational decisions, nor rational ones.

Man... this is no BushWorld! Iran is f-cking paradise on earth!

Too bad that the greatest things are often destroyed -or threatened to be- by the dumbest people among us... and you know who I'm speaking of...

@Siroos.
Bro could I have your e-mail address plz? I need to speak to you about something?

Or send me an e-mail pedramp@yahoo.com


[edit on 2-2-2005 by persian]

U.S. has to retospect on the IRAN issue. They were the ones who toppled the democritically elected government (cause he was inclined to the communist, OOHH MY GOD SUCH CRIME) and got the SHAH in power.
(TRUE DEMOCRAZY U SEE). People revolted (the islamic revolution) and that it how it all started. They took the US consolate hostage and so the bad blood between the too.
All that the White house and Pentagon says is bull #.
ok they are building a few weapons . Which country is not......

djohnsto77 I have read ur views and could not help it.

There are a lot of problems facing US, start by working on them first.

1. There are a lot of states in the US which have laws against women, they are not allowed to have a abortion according to their free will.

2. I just could not help noticing that most of the police chase video like COPS etc allways show the Black community at fault. There is something very wrong here.

3. Over 50% of the inmates in prision are Blacks considering they only make up 10% of the population it is a serious problem. Also 2 out of 10 black men have been put in prision . That mean that the black community has still not got the same opportunity as the whites , that too after 400 years of slavery.

4. The native indian people are not allowed to have some of their old traditions like celebrating some trible ritutials which are thier rights.

AND that only a starting list... I can go on and on

JADESTONE,

Both of your posts are factually incorrect.

[edit on 2/2/2005 by djohnsto77]

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Both of your posts are factually incorrect.

It would be nice to have more info so we can tell if we are the intened person for this message.



But off topic for a minute I am hitting the reply button and it takes me to the submission confirmation page the only way I can add to this thread is by this edit is anyone else getting that

[edit on 2/2/2005 by drbryankkruta]

Come on djohnsto77


1. Abortion issue- wasn't a prominent pro abortion doctor(notoriously called doctor death) shoot dead.

Many girls are having forced to undergo unhygenic abortion as it is not carried out in hospitols.

And wasn't one of Bush's election points was making abortion illegal.


2. Black's are neglected- go back 2000 election in Florida. A large number of blacks were disenfrenchised as they were democrats.

ur own documentry producer says it all go see "bowling for coloumbine"

30% of US army is served by blacks . I do not belive it is out of choice as out of lack of oppurtunity.

3. Natives are opperesed- Natives were robed of their culture and history.
They are reduced to crude mascots for baseball,football and colleges.

I give you some examples

OF HEROS AND SAVAGES
Charlene Teters

"To the Heroes who died in various battles with Savage Indians." This is the text of one of the panels inscribed on the Soldiers' Monument on the plaza in downtown Santa Fe, New Mexico. The obelisk was erected and dedicated in the plaza square in 1867 with the panel facing the Governors Palace and capital of the New Mexico Territory. Historians say that the "Savage Indians" referred to in the panel were the Navajo and Apache. The "Heroes" were the non-Indian soldiers who participated in the ethnic cleansing of the territory.

Three years before the monuments dedication Kit Carson waged war on the Navajo, who were forced to surrender after a heroic standoff at Canyon de Chilly. Subsequently, 11,000 Navajo were marched from their homelands in the Four Corners region by U.S. Army forces to eastern New Mexico. Nearly a thousand of them died during what came to be known as "The Long Walk," and another thousand died in captivity at Fort Summer. The Muscular Apache were also rounded up and imprisoned there, where 50 died in captivity.

Recently, I was invited to participate in SITE Santa He's Third International Biennial, a collection of artistic installations from all over the world curated by Rosa Martinez of Barcelona, Spain. My installation is a Native response to the Soldiers' Monument entitled Obelisk: To the Heroes.

It is a rare event for a Native artist to be invited to call attention to unwritten histories and the possibility of other heroes. My recreated monument, placed prominently in front of the New Mexico State Capitol, is an attempt: to take advantage of that rare opportunity. Made primarily of adobe -- simple earth -- it is embedded with personal mementos and artifacts donated by the entire community that refer to this unwritten history. The only text on my obelisk (see photograph) are the words "SAVAGES" and "To the Heroes." The most compelling question it elicits is "Who are the heroes and who are the savages?"

Before 1860 there were some 50 million indians now there are a few millions ,most were killed in the "long walk " or were killed women and children included.


WHERE IS THE JUSTICE OR AT LEAST AN APOLOGY.

ITS NEVER TOO LATE OR LOST.



First of all, although Natives were subject to the draft in World War I, Natives were not declared--summarily and without permission--to be "American citizens" until 1924 (and not until 1963 in Canada). The records of the congressional debates at the time reveal that the summary declaration of supposed "citizenship" was a ruse to attemept to summarily declare Natives as citizens and "therefore" to be "national minorities" who would supposedly not be covered by international law (at the time, the allies were talking about putting the Germans and Turks on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity and it was noted that the U.S. and Canada could easily be tried for the same things as a result of what was done/was being done to Natives.) In Canada, the same thing was done in the 1960s, for the same reasons, and was done by the Soviets, French and other nations seeking to summarily declare their Indigenous nations to be "national minorities" and ostensibly also not to be covered by international law that would expose the genocidal nations.



I BET U DO NOT KNOW WHO GEROMINO WAS................

SAD BUT TRUE.......................

FOUNDING FATHER OF AMERICA ............
WHITE DEMOCRACY ON RED PEOPLES BLOOD............................


The founding fathers on that rock shared common characteristics. All four valued white supremacy and promoted the extirpation of Indian society. The United States' founding fathers were staunchly anti-Indian advocates in that at one time or another, all four provided for genocide against Indian peoples of this hemisphere.

George Washington...
In 1779, George Washington instructed Major General John Sullivan to attack Iroquois people. Washington stated, "lay waste all the settlements around...that the country may not be merely overrun, but destroyed". In the course of the carnage and annihilation of Indian people, Washington also instructed his general not "listen to any overture of peace before the total ruin of their settlements is effected". (Stannard, David E. AMERICAN HOLOCAUST. New York: Oxford University Press, 1992. pp. 118-121.)

In 1783, Washington's anti-Indian sentiments were apparent in his comparisons of Indians with wolves: "Both being beast of prey, tho' they differ in shape", he said. George Washington's policies of extermination were realized in his troops behaviors following a defeat. Troops would skin the bodies of Iroquois "from the hips downward to make boot tops or leggings". Indians who survived the attacks later re-named the nation's first president as "Town Destroyer". Approximately 28 of 30 Seneca towns had been destroyed within a five year period. (Ibid)

Thomas Jefferson...
In 1807, Thomas Jefferson instructed his War Department that, should any Indians resist against America stealing Indian lands, the Indian resistance must be met with "the hatchet". Jefferson continued, "And...if ever we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, " he wrote, "we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or is driven beyond the Mississippi." Jefferson, the slave owner, continued, "in war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy all of them". (Ibid)

In 1812, Jefferson said that American was obliged to push the backward Indians "with the beasts of the forests into the Stony Mountains". One year later Jefferson continued anti-Indian statements by adding that America must "pursue [the Indians] to extermination, or drive them to new seats beyond our reach". (Ibid)

Abraham Lincoln...

In 1862, President Abraham Lincoln ordered the execution, by hanging, of 38 Dakota Sioux prisoners in Mankato, Minnesota. Most of those executed were holy men or political leaders of their camps. None of them were responsible for committing the crimes they were accused of. Coined as the Largest Mass Execution in U.S. History. (Brown, Dee. BURY MY HEART AT WOUNDED KNEE. New York: Holt, Rinehart, Winston, 1970. pp. 59-61)

Theodore Roosevelt...
The fourth face you see on that "Stony Mountain" is America's first twentieth century president, alleged American hero, and Nobel peace prize recipient, Theodore Roosevelt. This Indian fighter firmly grasped the notion of Manifest Destiny saying that America's extermination of the Indians and thefts our their lands "was ultimately beneficial as it was inevitable". Roosevelt once said, "I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of ten are, and I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth". (Stannard, Op.Cit.)

The apathy displayed by these founding fathers symbolize the demoralization related to racial superiority. Scholars point toward this racial polarization as evidence of the existence of Eugenics.

Eugenics is a new term for an old phenomena which asserts that Indian people should be exterminated because they are an inferior race of people. Jefferson's suggestion to pursue the Indians to extermination fits well into the eugenistic vision. In David Stannard's study American Holocaust, he writes: "had these same words been enunciated by a German leader in 1939, and directed at European Jews, they would be engraved in modern memory. Since they were uttered by one of America's founding fathers, however...they conveniently have become lost to most historians in their insistent celebration of Jefferson's wisdom and humanity." Roosevelt feared that American upper classes were being replaced by the "unrestricted breeding" of inferior racial stocks, the "utterly shiftless", and the "worthless" (Ibid)

Originally posted by JADESTONE
djohnsto77 I have read ur views and could not help it.

There are a lot of problems facing US, start by working on them first.

1. There are a lot of states in the US which have laws against women, they are not allowed to have a abortion according to their free will.

2. I just could not help noticing that most of the police chase video like COPS etc allways show the Black community at fault. There is something very wrong here.

3. Over 50% of the inmates in prision are Blacks considering they only make up 10% of the population it is a serious problem. Also 2 out of 10 black men have been put in prision . That mean that the black community has still not got the same opportunity as the whites , that too after 400 years of slavery.

4. The native indian people are not allowed to have some of their old traditions like celebrating some trible ritutials which are thier rights.

AND that only a starting list... I can go on and on

Don’t waste your time with djohnsto77. There are people who are intellectual and are willing to discuss things in the intelligent way and there are high school dropouts who say the first thing that comes to their mind and feel that they have to respond to every post.

I remember few months back I was chatting with this guy from Israel, and whole thing started by him saying: we are peace loving people and we have never harmed anybody so why there are so much aggression against us?

So I provided him with reports from UN and Red Cross and showed him that out of all countries, Israel got the worst human right record and this guy was keep saying that these are lies.
I mean what else could you tell to this guy?

[edit on 2-2-2005 by persian]

hello persian

first lets not get personal u hardly know this guy.... everyone must be given the benefit of doubt.......

As u can see there is problems in every society , but u can not go blazing guns . Personnaly I don't find anything wrong with Iranian nuke policy as long they don't drop nukes on Israel.

U see the Middle East is carring europe's burden.
The poor jews were prosecuted and were send packing to Israel, their promised land. If they hadn't been prosecuted they would have stayed back in europe.

There were historical ties between the jews in europe and Israel but most would have stayed back in europe if not thrown away..

They had to go through some very rough time so they are a bit paranoid.
They had the survival instinct inbedded in them.

On the other hand the poor Palestinian were given pittence money to give up the land and were reduced to a refuge status in their own land.

I find it very hard to pick a side on this conflict. But the answer must come from the Israelies and Palestinian themself.

I have lots of Israelies friends as well as arabs. I tell u not every Israelies are zionist. they know they have to give up the occupied land to have peace and i think this is the majority feeling save a few hardliners.

The point that only a very small percentage of Israelis and Jews are zionists must be made and made frequently. However, it is this Likud-style thinking that has hijacked the state of Israel and turned it into an apatheid state. To be palestinian living in Israel is strongly reminiscent of being black in apatheid south africa, despite the fact that 20% of the population of Israel is palestinian.

Originally posted by General Zapata
The point that only a very small percentage of Israelis and Jews are zionists must be made and made frequently. However, it is this Likud-style thinking that has hijacked the state of Israel and turned it into an apatheid state. To be palestinian living in Israel is strongly reminiscent of being black in apatheid south africa, despite the fact that 20% of the population of Israel is palestinian.

U know what , there would have been a solution to the problem till now if the Shimon Peres government had not been forced down.

So close yet so far. lets hope this time there will be a solution .