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Abortion - there is only one question that matters

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posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 12:38 PM
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originally posted by: JD163

And serials killers can have whatever opinions they like,...it does not matter, the law will deal with them,...in fact I have more reasons to be afraid of ppl like you who what to impose your standards on others.

The constitution is not the ten commandments, iirc it says something about the separation of church and state...

You don't have to like what others do, but as long as it is legal,...I suggest we all mind our own business and leave ppl alone


That right there is so very important too. Even today there are many Christians trying to change the history of this nation into a Christian Nation but it's not and wasn't meant to be.

That is what made this country different. That is what our founders did different than all others. They were "Enlightened" and made a Nation ruled by the Laws of Man. We were in charge this time. Not a King with Divine Right or the Church with it's Divine Authority. Because those couldn't be challenged. No matter who you were, you were being Ruled over by some higher Divine Authority without question.

But our founders said, no. We are taking responsibility for ourselves and our own decisions and with that came the ability to be our own authority and ability to challenge our own authority by reason and intellect. That is what Enlightenment is, taking responsibility for your own actions and choices. Taking all the blame and praise for your own actions and mistakes. But also being able to change those choices when needed.

That's why we separated church and state. Because Freedom and Liberty means not only making your own choices but being responsible for those choices you make. You take the Glory and Punishment for your own actions whatever they are. Nobody else is responsible for your actions. Not even God Almighty. You are responsible for them.

That was the gift our Founding Fathers gave to the people of this nation. An idea of what it meant to be truly free from the Rule of another. But it came with the price of being responsible for ourselves.




posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 12:42 PM
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originally posted by: JD163
You do understand that the bible is only relevant to christians rite?

You do understand I was responding to someone else's post that specifically referenced something from Genesis, right?


Its your right to believe in it,....and its my right to laugh at it

Whatever... I try not to be so rude as to belittle their beliefs - until they start belittling mine, then the gloves are off.

Rabidly pro choice people are some of the rudest aholes I've ever come across in my life, but rabid liberals come in a close second.

Incidentally, I am not what most people would call a Christian (that is why I lower cased earlier references). If anything, I'm just spiritual. I don't believe in the infallibility of the Bible or anything like that, but it contains a lot of interesting writings, and a lot can be learned from its pages.



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 12:52 PM
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"The illogic of this comment is overwhelming.

As I said, ALL laws (that govern personal behavior) are the imposition of a moral code. The only question, then, is whose/which one. The way this is determined is through the society in general, through - you guessed it - the imposition of laws governing behavior. "

You believe in the bible, you have forfeited any rights to logic

And what does the current law say? abortion is legal up to a certain stage. And the laws not only considers morality, it must also be rational,....the law is the current social contract,...got a problem with it, bring it up with your local congressman

"And do you not see that you are just as guilty of imposing your moral code (or lack thereof) on others by demanding that women and doctors be allowed to murder unborn children?

Both of our positions are imposing a moral code, again, it is just a question of which one. "

You are the only one doing any demanding,...my position is that the choice is left up to the individual,...how is that imposing in any way? Stop projection your bigotry on me,...I have never demanded for any such....everyone decides for themselves

"Nope, not once does it mention this. The only mention, that was relied on to create this false idea, was in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson."

Just tell me where in the constitution does it mention Jesus ,...and I'll concede

'Nor do you, so why are you so hell bent on imposing your moral code on others?'

I said everyone is free to abort or not, you insist that no one should but I'm the one imposing? I'm perfectly fine with ppl doing as they wish,...,the only thing I'm against is religious bigots trying to tell me what I can or can't do,...

Right - you say this now, while abortion is legal, but you would be changing your tune pretty quick if it was outlawed.

You only respect the law if it aligns with your own moral code (or lack thereof).

It it you who have a problem with the law as it is now, and obviously would want it your way so again, stop projecting
If it was outlaw , I'm totally fine with it too, it the women that would rise up and protest,...don't for one moment pretend that you know what I think or how I'll react,...I may have 0 morals, and thats perfectly fine as long as my behaviour is within the law



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 12:55 PM
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originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: JD163
You do understand that the bible is only relevant to christians rite?

You do understand I was responding to someone else's post that specifically referenced something from Genesis, right?


Its your right to believe in it,....and its my right to laugh at it

Whatever... I try not to be so rude as to belittle their beliefs - until they start belittling mine, then the gloves are off.

Rabidly pro choice people are some of the rudest aholes I've ever come across in my life, but rabid liberals come in a close second.

Incidentally, I am not what most people would call a Christian (that is why I lower cased earlier references). If anything, I'm just spiritual. I don't believe in the infallibility of the Bible or anything like that, but it contains a lot of interesting writings, and a lot can be learned from its pages.


You could practice witchcraft for all i care,...and I'll respond to whatever I want, feel free to ignore,...yes, I'm a big asshole, and proud of it, and it so happen to be legal too lolzz



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 12:57 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: JD163

And serials killers can have whatever opinions they like,...it does not matter, the law will deal with them,...in fact I have more reasons to be afraid of ppl like you who what to impose your standards on others.

The constitution is not the ten commandments, iirc it says something about the separation of church and state...

You don't have to like what others do, but as long as it is legal,...I suggest we all mind our own business and leave ppl alone


That right there is so very important too. Even today there are many Christians trying to change the history of this nation into a Christian Nation but it's not and wasn't meant to be.

That is what made this country different. That is what our founders did different than all others. They were "Enlightened" and made a Nation ruled by the Laws of Man. We were in charge this time. Not a King with Divine Right or the Church with it's Divine Authority. Because those couldn't be challenged. No matter who you were, you were being Ruled over by some higher Divine Authority without question.

But our founders said, no. We are taking responsibility for ourselves and our own decisions and with that came the ability to be our own authority and ability to challenge our own authority by reason and intellect. That is what Enlightenment is, taking responsibility for your own actions and choices. Taking all the blame and praise for your own actions and mistakes. But also being able to change those choices when needed.

That's why we separated church and state. Because Freedom and Liberty means not only making your own choices but being responsible for those choices you make. You take the Glory and Punishment for your own actions whatever they are. Nobody else is responsible for your actions. Not even God Almighty. You are responsible for them.

That was the gift our Founding Fathers gave to the people of this nation. An idea of what it meant to be truly free from the Rule of another. But it came with the price of being responsible for ourselves.


Amen...oh the irony lolz



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 01:02 PM
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Roe v Wade was argued for years, all these arguments here, have been rehashed over and over in the courts, tens of thousands of court documents were generated by Roe v Wade.....if the "forced-birth" people here NEED ANY information, go back to those documents to have your questions answered.



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 01:28 PM
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a reply to: Tardacus

This is the part of the abortion argument that people never bring up but i think is vital to it, 67% of abortions have been by black women, 95% of abortion clinics are in predominantly black neighborhoods. The underlying motive is to limit black reproduction. To which it has been successful the black population is the only segment of our society not growing despite having pregnancy rates twice as high of other races.



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 01:57 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm
That right there is so very important too. Even today there are many Christians trying to change the history of this nation into a Christian Nation but it's not and wasn't meant to be.

You actually have this completely backwards, but it is understandabe and forgivable, considering the amount of deliberate confusion around this question. There are many who want to rewrite history to erase our Christian roots.


That is what made this country different. That is what our founders did different than all others. They were "Enlightened" and made a Nation ruled by the Laws of Man. We were in charge this time. Not a King with Divine Right or the Church with it's Divine Authority. Because those couldn't be challenged. No matter who you were, you were being Ruled over by some higher Divine Authority without question.

But our founders said, no. We are taking responsibility for ourselves and our own decisions and with that came the ability to be our own authority and ability to challenge our own authority by reason and intellect. That is what Enlightenment is, taking responsibility for your own actions and choices. Taking all the blame and praise for your own actions and mistakes. But also being able to change those choices when needed.

That's why we separated church and state.

This is the Big Lie. There is no mention of anything like 'separation of church and state' anywhere in the Constitution. Those words are found in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut, and have been twisted into the current common myth called 'the separation of church and state'.

While it is true that this country not only wasn't founded with an official, established religion, the First Amendment only applies to Congress. It specifically does not forbid The States from forming official religions, and in fact, many did, and it was perfectly Constitutional. It wasn't until much later that insane activist judges somehow convinced everyone that words don't mean what they mean - "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." - and applied it to The States (but this is irrelevant to the question with respect to the founding of our country).

Our Country, you see, was not 'The Constitution', our Country was (and is) 'the States united by and under The Constitution'.

There are three main document series that one must read in order to have a reasonable idea of what the founders actually did and intended to do with the creation of The Constitution - The Federalist Papers, The Anti-Federalist Papers, and Elliot's Debates. Absent the knowledge contained in these documents, your arguments are just a lot of hot air.



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 02:07 PM
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originally posted by: JD163
You believe in the bible, you have forfeited any rights to logic

Where did I say 'I believe in the Bible'?

You have lied about what I said, therefore you have forfeited any rights to make any claim that does not have attached the presumption that you are lying.


And what does the current law say? abortion is legal up to a certain stage. And the laws not only considers morality, it must also be rational,

Really? You really believe that every law on the books is rational, by virtue of it being a law?

I see. You are not a Christian, but you certainly are a religious zealot. Your god is THE STATE.


Just tell me where in the constitution does it mention Jesus ,...and I'll concede

It mentions The Creator, but I'll reiterate from my last response, it doesn't really matter what is in The Constitution. The First Amendment only applies to Congress, not The States, so what really matters is what is in each of the 13 original State Constitutions.

Now to give the rest of your post the attention it deserves...



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 02:15 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm
As far as discussing this rationally without emotional baggage I'd say you failed in epic proportions my friend.

How so? By all means, elaborate.

I didn't say that the argument should be absent any emotion, that would be impossible.

I said try to set aside the emotional baggage that you have accumulated over the months/years/decades that you have been arguing your position, and look at it with a fresh perspective - you know, as if looking at it for the first time.

Impossible for most, yes, but you can try. Obviously many here including you did not. Too much effort I guess. Sad.


Until you can be honest about what you're doing with those here and yourself I don't think anyone need bother answering you.

Not sure what you mean. How was I dishonest in my original post, or subsequent posts? Did I lie somewhere?



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 02:32 PM
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originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: tanstaafl

Life begins at conception.

All that we are is conception -- conception doesn't end when you leave the womb.

edit:doesn't end in the womb or even when you leave the womb*


I agree with this because at conception, the fetus has all the DNA required to be a human.
edit on 10-2-2017 by mhc_70 because: misspelling



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 03:20 PM
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a reply to: tanstaafl

NO NO. This nation and it's founders, many of which were in fact Christian, did not found a Christian Nation. If they wanted that they would have said so. They in fact did just the opposite.

No mention of Christianity or Even God. Simply one mention of Creator which could be anything.

Then they separate Church and State for a reason.

Then they also have RELIGIOUS FREEDOM for all faiths. You can't have that under Christian Rule because Christian Rule has NO GODS other than their One God. Meaning you couldn't have Religious Freedom in a Christian Nation. You're kidding yourself if you think you can. You'd be lying to say it's possible.

You can give me all your crap about this being a Christian Nation but I've looked into too much to ever believe that. It was founded and has been a Christian Majority as far as the people go. I don't deny that. But it was specifically created to NOT be a Nation Ruled by Religious Authority. That was the point. That is the whole point. That is what made America Truly Free and Unique. There is nothing Special about creating another Nation under a Religious Authority. That had been done repeatedly. Our Founders had a different plan all together and they made that quite clear.

Don't you think if they wanted America to be Christian they would have mentioned Christ or Christianity somewhere??? Don't you think they would have made a point about saying that in it's founding documents???

Many of them were Christian and their ideas may have come from Christian Teachings even. But they did NOT want a nation ruled under Religious Authority. NO WAY. That was the whole Point. It was based of the Enlightenment and if you know what that means you know what they wanted.



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 03:27 PM
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originally posted by: mhc_70

I agree with this because at conception, the fetus has all the DNA required to be a human.


So does your severed finger, but that doesn't make it a human either.



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 03:31 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: tanstaafl

NO NO. This nation and it's founders, many of which were in fact Christian, did not found a Christian Nation.


I agree, but fail to see why you would respond as if I had said they did.

Maybe read and address what I actually did say?

I'll ignore the rest of your post since it makes it very clear you respond without reading what you are responding to.

Oh - and since I didn't actually say it...

You do realize that our Country - the united States of America - existed before The Constitution, right?



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 03:40 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: mhc_70

I agree with this because at conception, the fetus has all the DNA required to be a human.


So does your severed finger, but that doesn't make it a human either.


It is still a human finger with unique human DNA. From a scientific stand point it certainly does make it human, it could not have come from anything else.



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 04:14 PM
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a reply to: tanstaafl

You said I had it completely backward. You're implying that it IS a Christian Nation.

If not then what are you saying??

Also explain how I can have it completely backward yet you agree with me at the same time.



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 04:20 PM
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a reply to: mhc_70

Yeah, it's a human finger but not a living human.

A egg which has been activated by a sperm isn't a human either, but has all the information needed to become one if all goes well of course.

Neither the finger or the fertilized egg are a human being though. Even you point out that a Fetus has the information needed to become a human. Which means a fetus isn't a human.



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 09:04 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: mhc_70

Yeah, it's a human finger but not a living human.

A egg which has been activated by a sperm isn't a human either, but has all the information needed to become one if all goes well of course.

Neither the finger or the fertilized egg are a human being though. Even you point out that a Fetus has the information needed to become a human. Which means a fetus isn't a human.


Spin it how you want, but here are the factsa.

Keith L. Moore’s The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (7th edition, Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003) states the following:



A zygote [fertilized egg] is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.


Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology (7th edition, Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008, p. 2):




Development begins with fertilization, the process by which the male gamete, the sperm, and the femal gamete, the oocyte, unite to give rise to a zygote



From T.W. Sadler, Langman’s Medical Embryology (10th edition, Philadelphia, PA: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2006, p. 11):


Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed[.]


Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Miller, Human Embryology and Teratology [3rd edition, New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001, p. 8]):



Although life is a continuous process, fertilization … is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte.


William J. Larsen, Essentials of Human Embryology [New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998, pp. 1, 14]), we read the following: .




Human embryos begin development following the fusion of definitive male and female gametes during fertilization[.] … This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development.


Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia, 5th edition, New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943):



Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism. … At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun[.]


(Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology, 6th edition, New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3) states:




All higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)[.] … The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.


National Geographic put together a television program (“In the Womb,” 2005) documenting the development of the baby throughout pregnancy. In the introduction of their program, they sum up the scientific knowledge of the beginning of life in the following way:



The two cells gradually and gracefully become one. This is the moment of conception [fertilization], when an individual’s unique set of DNA is created, a human signature that never existed before and will never be repeated.


Dr. Micheline M. Mathews-Roth, Harvard Medical School, gave confirming testimony, supported by references from over 20 embryology and other medical textbooks that human life began at fertilization.



It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive…It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception.


C. Christopher Hook, M.D. Oncologist, Mayo Clinic, Director of Ethics Education, Mayo Graduate School of Medicine:




When fertilization is complete, a unique genetic human entity exists.


Theres plenty more but I will just leave the Official Senate report on Senate Bill 158: The “Human Life Bill"

naapc.org...




Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being – a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings.



edit on 10-2-2017 by mhc_70 because: (no reason given)


You can argue that there are different stages of growth, but the scientific consensus is that from the time of conception, it is a live human growing.
edit on 10-2-2017 by mhc_70 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2017 @ 10:56 PM
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a reply to: mhc_70

Yeah, that's all fascinating really. But I'm not arguing against it. Of course it's a start of a human being growing. I never said it wasn't. But it's still not a completed human being yet. Whether it's a few cells dividing or a zygote or a fetus and so forth. Sure it's going to be a human if the whole process continues without problems. What else would it be??

But a tadpole isn't a frog yet and a zygote isn't exactly what I would call a completed human either. It certainly isn't functional yet. But your point was that it's a human at conception because it has all the DNA info to be a human. My point was that just having all the DNA info doesn't make it an actual human per se. Individual cells have all that DNA too. I'm not saying it won't become a human. Just that it technically isn't one quite yet.

I'm not saying it's gonna develop into a bear or a cheetah or something. If it's a human embryo then it's going to be a human being when it's developed, obviously.

But I don't see a miscarriage as an accidental murder just because it was one day hopefully become a viable human. I don't see an Abortion as a murder either. I personally would prefer they be done before development reaches a certain point but that's just my opinion and I don't force others to follow my personal opinions just because I say so. The choice is theirs to see it how they want to see it and I'm fine with that.

You seem to be very emotionally invested in this topic though, so I just thought I'd try and clear that up. I'm not suggesting anyone should be having abortions or murdering kids or anything.



posted on Feb, 11 2017 @ 08:37 AM
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a reply to: mOjOm

Now your moving the goal posts. The question was, when does life begin?

So I will repeat because your reply seems to assume a lot of things about me I never said or implied.

At conception all the DNA required to become a human is present and growth of the human life begins.




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