Propaganda Over Race in University Admissions

originally posted by: Tardacus
a reply to: AMPTAH

when will we know that they have been justly compensated and are on equal footing with other races?

Having a black president seems to me to be proof that they have achieved equal footing and that they can accomplish anything they want to in America.

Probably, when America has it's first Black President. That will be the signal that the adjustment is done.

Obama was a half breed. He happened to grow up with non-black parents, so benefited from some of the white ancestral links, even though he looked black.

a reply to: AMPTAH

The history books will show Obama was the first black president.
And I refuse to be punished for the sins of my father, or forefathers as it is.

originally posted by: Grambler

So why do blacks that had no ancestors in the US during slavery get affirmative action? Why do Hispanic people? Why are there such a high percentage of jewish people?

Because the society is made up of people who discriminate based on prejudices that are formed initially from actual observations. So, a person who looked like a descendant of a slave, would receive the exact same treatment as one who never had a slave ancestor, even though the two might be psychologically different inside.

Once the society has an established pattern of discriminating negatively against some group, it's hard to turn it around.

If a black person goes to China, should China have to give that person affirmative action because of slavery?

I don't know the answer to that. But, in Russia, for example, many students from Africa go there to study, and find discrimination that affects them, just like in the USA, even though Russia didn't have slavery. World communication transports ideas and attitudes all around the world, so that even places that had no local history causing negative attitudes, can be influenced by ideas flowing in from other nations.

I find your proposed treatment of blacks, suggesting that they need a crutch for up to 300 years is belittling toward blacks. I think that racist will endorse this policy to help keeps blacks as their little pets that will allies rely on them.

It's not the blacks that need affirmative action, it's the society that needs the blacks to have it. The society has a misconception about blacks, caused by past actions discriminating against blacks, that led to observational differences, that became entrenched in the ideas of the population, and so blacks and whites, and other groups, have pre-concieved ideas that are just wrong, and can't change until the whole society itself is changed. This would happen naturally, over time, but would take much longer without affirmative action. Affirmative action, for example, helps to save the life of white cops walking the beat. So, it's not a crutch for black folks.

I think that what these affirmative action peddling people fear more than anything is a black community that is given an equal chance to prove that they are every bit as resourcful, hard working and free thinking as the rest of us.

You can be as resourceful and free thinking as you like, you still need the cooperation of the rest of society to succeed here.

They were mistreated, had laws passed in the 1800's to keep them out, were interned during world war two, but none of that affected them.

World war II lasted for 6 years, slavery lasted for 245 years. You're not seriously trying to compare the impact of the two?

We are not talking other countries. The courts have ruled that racial quotas are illegal, and the universities deny they do them. So are you arguing these courts are breaking the law by having racial quotas?

Legal or illegal, universities aim for diversity. They pick people based on many diverse characteristics, one is race, one is country of origin. And they have "limits" for these things. It may not be a "quota", since there's no minimum. But, there's usually a maximum number they'll accept for any specific identifiable group.

a reply to: AMPTAH

Since minority groups were deliberately held back in the past, they didn't get the opportunity to go to the good colleges, and thus that pool of educated parents is missing from parts of the population.

Immigrants who come over with nothing can quickly assimilate into american culture. Sowell typically refutes this argument, stating the "Jews came over to the US with nothing during the interwar/ww3 period and the achieved wage parity with the average american within 5 years, despite anti-semitism which was a real thing back then"

So the question is given the fact that jewish people scores are just about average, and they are only about 2% of the population, why are they over 25% of Ivy league students?

If it is genetic and Ashenazi jews do have an average IQ between 110-115 as is reported then it makes sense. Convert jews and other lines do not get the genetic benefits of ashkenazi jews which do score well on IQ.
Jewish culture and an ingroup preference are both also great positives for jews, no one complains when jews use ingroup preference.

originally posted by: jellyrev
"Jews came over to the US with nothing during the interwar/ww3 period and the achieved wage parity with the average american within 5 years, despite anti-semitism which was a real thing back then"

Jews never migrate with nothing.

They bring God with them, where ever they go.

That God provides all Jews with a "network" connecting them to all other Jews.

They have connected Jews back in their home countries they migrate from. They can buy and sell between nations, trading with other Jews.

They have an even stronger network than most other groups, since their's is not simply their own family and ancestors, but the family and ancestors of all other Jews everywhere in the world.

That's how they can achieve success regardless of where they go.

Like I said, this is all about "generational disruptions". The blacks had all their links deliberately destroyed. The Jews walk with their links completely intact.

a reply to: Grambler

Those stats are beyond sickening, and show that there is a very real agenda in place, and it is not in favor of "white, Christian males" as is claimed! In fact, it favors all others, instead. Yet any discussion of these facts invariably end up with people being called "white supremacists", "Christian fascists", etc, and people refuse to accept the facts in evidence. In our modern society, the white Christian is the most persecuted and disadvantaged person. The data shows this clearly, especially that which you have provided.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: Grambler

I find it sickening that there is any sort of discrimination. May the best student win.

I agree. I will say the Unz somewhat disagrees, and suggests a mix of meritocracy and lottery for Ivy league admissions.

The problem with this OP is that it is very difficult to wrap your head around all of the figures, so I don't think many people will respond.

But that is why I think it is so important, it shows the absurdity of identity politics, and how academia and the media will twist the numbers to not only keep flyover country type white people out of these universities, but then actually demonize them while doing so.

That's a big issue these days! I have encountered so many really hateful people, posting here and there online, talking down about the average American, basically acting as though anyone not happily living in some liberal big city must be a criminal type, inbred, ignorant, and on and on and on. It's beyond vile.

originally posted by: AMPTAH


Because the society is made up of people who discriminate based on prejudices that are formed initially from actual observations. So, a person who looked like a descendant of a slave, would receive the exact same treatment as one who never had a slave ancestor, even though the two might be psychologically different inside.

Once the society has an established pattern of discriminating negatively against some group, it's hard to turn it around.

I give you credit for a slick attempt at argument. It may have worked on most people, but unfortunately for you I am well versed in the art of BSing people as apparently you are.

Your initial argument is that blacks that had slave ancestors need affirmative action for up to 300 years because they had a generational disruption. In other words, there is some thing incredibly unique about black people whose ancestors went through slavery in the united states.

So why would that have any effect on a black migrant from Africa now that never had a family go through slavery.

And you cleverly change the argument. Now it has nothing to do with the generational disruption that blacks went through, because clearly the immigrant who had no family enslaved has no generational diruption. Now it is about how people in the US currently treat black people.

And I am sorry you are wrong to make such huge claims thaat the people of the US are so racist that they will need three hundred years of affirmative action to change their mentality.

Not to mention you have no proof whatsoever that giving affirmative action to blacks will over time makes whites or other races change their minds.

I don't know the answer to that. But, in Russia, for example, many students from Africa go there to study, and find discrimination that affects them, just like in the USA, even though Russia didn't have slavery. World communication transports ideas and attitudes all around the world, so that even places that had no local history causing negative attitudes, can be influenced by ideas flowing in from other nations.

Wow so now the rest of the world needs to pay for the sins of slavery. You do know that almost every ethnicity has had people both be the victims of terrible things like attempted genocide and slavery and has engaged in them.

You again do a disservice to black people by making them out to be these mythological creatures that are so pure and innocent, and the world over are demonized by the cruel world.

It's not the blacks that need affirmative action, it's the society that needs the blacks to have it. The society has a misconception about blacks, caused by past actions discriminating against blacks, that led to observational differences, that became entrenched in the ideas of the population, and so blacks and whites, and other groups, have pre-concieved ideas that are just wrong, and can't change until the whole society itself is changed. This would happen naturally, over time, but would take much longer without affirmative action. Affirmative action, for example, helps to save the life of white cops walking the beat. So, it's not a crutch for black folks.

Right, now we get to the crux of the argument. Its not about helping black people, its about punishing white people and everyone else.

Just terrible.

Also affirmative action doesn't help cops on the beat. This makes no sense at all.

You can be as resourceful and free thinking as you like, you still need the cooperation of the rest of society to succeed here.

No, as much as you believe it, the entire world doesn't prejudice against black people. Your belief here is very hateful and dangerous.

You can not just assert everyone in the world except black people are racist.

World war II lasted for 6 years, slavery lasted for 245 years. You're not seriously trying to compare the impact of the two?

No I am saying how did the asians benefit from white privilege that they deserve to be punished the most by affirmative action.

But you answered, apparently asians like every other people in the world harbor deep seated racist beliefs about blacks according to you.

originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: jellyrev
"Jews came over to the US with nothing during the interwar/ww3 period and the achieved wage parity with the average american within 5 years, despite anti-semitism which was a real thing back then"

Jews never migrate with nothing.

They bring God with them, where ever they go.

That God provides all Jews with a "network" connecting them to all other Jews.

They have connected Jews back in their home countries they migrate from. They can buy and sell between nations, trading with other Jews.

They have an even stronger network than most other groups, since their's is not simply their own family and ancestors, but the family and ancestors of all other Jews everywhere in the world.

That's how they can achieve success regardless of where they go.

Like I said, this is all about "generational disruptions". The blacks had all their links deliberately destroyed. The Jews walk with their links completely intact.

And here we go, right on cue you switch back to the generational disruption argument.

I will just take your argument and use it against you.

Its not that jews need affirmative action, its that the rest of the world needs it so they could change.

After the Holocaust, the entire world is has racial prejudice against jews.

Therefore the world owes jews 300 years of affirmative action so that the world can learn to get rid of the prejudices to jews.

Prove me wrong.

Oh wait, you can't becuase its impossibel to look into the minds of people. But thats what you do with blacks.

You know the world needs to change because they have these deep seated racial biases against blacks.

You seem like a nice person, but you are making some pretty bold and disgusting claims that the whole world is racist and needs to be punished or reeducated, except black people who are great.

It just seems dubious.

a reply to: AMPTAH

So your argument is a lack of networking? I do not doubt networking has an effect. I brought it up with Jews. But you are claiming this is the primary issue?
That is it?

How does this networking theory explain high school graduation rates and ACT/SAT scores?

Do hispanics have these same links as Jews in the United states? They make more and graduate at slightly higher rates than blacks. What happened differently?
Why do east asian males make more than their white counterparts? asian men out networked white men?

I am curious to how networking has an effect on scholastic achievement, could you elaborate?

originally posted by: Grambler
So why would that have any effect on a black migrant from Africa now that never had a family go through slavery.

Blacks from Africa and the Caribbean that immigrate to the USA tend to have a much more positive view of the USA than Blacks that are born and grew up inside the US.

But when a cop pulls over a black driving a BMW, he doesn't know nor care whether that black was born here or just came off the boat from Africa. They get the same treatment.

There are two things going on here.

And you cleverly change the argument. Now it has nothing to do with the generational disruption that blacks went through, because clearly the immigrant who had no family enslaved has no generational diruption. Now it is about how people in the US currently treat black people.

The two are linked. They are not separate issues. The white people who grew up seeing blacks in inferior positions developed the natural opinion that this is where they belong. They don't consider the history of events that artificially created the environment that they see. They don't consider the institutional laws that existed for centuries that created the conditions. They just see things being a certain way, and think that's natural. Who can blame them? They didn't create the laws, nor the environment, they were just born into a "white privileged" position, and thought that's the way things ought to be. The blacks born into these conditions also think to themselves, this is the way things are, nothing can be done about it.

It's no accident that the first Black Looking President the US had, was raised "outside" the united states. No black person growing up inside the US could think to himself that he could be president. He had to be born in the US, to qualify, but then spirited out of the US in the formative teen years, in order not to get the usual dose of psychological damage that all black youth receive as their rite of passage into adulthood, growing up inside the USA.

It's all about "treatment" of the blacks.

So, two things are created by the "generational disruption" :

[1] it created the environment that stimulated discrimination
[2] and broke the wills of the blacks, disconnecting them from the links to their ancestry, giving them no hope.

A new black coming to America may not suffer [2], but is still subject to [1], because the environment still persists.

So, there's no change in argument.

originally posted by: Grambler
you are making some pretty bold and disgusting claims that the whole world is racist and needs to be punished or reeducated, except black people who are great.

It just seems dubious.

Unfortunately, the whole world is racist.

Racism isn't something unique to white people. That's just the American condition.

But, in Africa, different tribes slaughter each other. In India, there's the cast system. Wherever there are tribes and ethnic groups, there's conflict and discrimination. Sometimes people slaughter entire ethnic groups in a frenzy of "ethnic cleansing". So, everywhere there's the problem, existing at various levels in the human drama.

It is pretty disgusting. But, also very true.

originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: Grambler
you are making some pretty bold and disgusting claims that the whole world is racist and needs to be punished or reeducated, except black people who are great.

It just seems dubious.

Unfortunately, the whole world is racist.

Racism isn't something unique to white people. That's just the American condition.

But, in Africa, different tribes slaughter each other. In India, there's the cast system. Wherever there are tribes and ethnic groups, there's conflict and discrimination. Sometimes people slaughter entire ethnic groups in a frenzy of "ethnic cleansing". So, everywhere there's the problem, existing at various levels in the human drama.

It is pretty disgusting. But, also very true.

Then why must the world have to pay with affirmative action to blacks for 300 hundred years if they too are racist?

Also, this seems to suggest that racism is inevitable. So why even bother with the affirmative action if you know it will not solve anything.

originally posted by: jellyrev
So your argument is a lack of networking? I do not doubt networking has an effect. I brought it up with Jews. But you are claiming this is the primary issue?

We "inherit" several things from our forefathers. From our parents, we get influenced to study academics, or to work the fields. It's a long tradition, that children follow in the footsteps of their parents. Jesus' earthly father Joseph was a carpenter, so Jesus learnt the trade. This "tradition" of inheriting our interests and motivations from our parents is part of our reality. Remove the parents, and you remove this link. Slaves were separated from parents, wives, and children, and deliberately kept separate, families destroyed, and all these links destroyed, so that they could be more easily controlled.

So, maybe the slaves father was a farmer or hunter, or king or councilman, back in his original land, but now he's a house servant, waiting on the master's table. gone was the link to the parent's profession. That's the first break.

How does this networking theory explain high school graduation rates and ACT/SAT scores?

Like I mentioned before, if your parents are educated, you're more likely to be educated. If your parents are not, then you're more likely not to be. All the high school graduation rates can be linked back to the parental influence.

Do hispanics have these same links as Jews in the United states? They make more and graduate at slightly higher rates than blacks. What happened differently?

Hispanics were never slaves. Though, Jews trace their dedication to academics back thousands of years, so they have very strong influence to study. The "hispanic" is a new world creation. They have a shorter ancestral line.

Why do east asian males make more than their white counterparts? asian men out networked white men?

They don't. A few "individuals" here and there make lots of money. But, I'm not sure how you're comparing individual here.

I am curious to how networking has an effect on scholastic achievement, could you elaborate?

Networking has an effect on business success, and making money. Academic achievement is a result of an unbroken line of fathers and forefathers, who passed on their aptitude, through father teaching and inspiring sons..etc..

originally posted by: Grambler

Then why must the world have to pay with affirmative action to blacks for 300 hundred years if they too are racist?

Again, the world is not paying. It's attempting to fix the problem.

Also, this seems to suggest that racism is inevitable. So why even bother with the affirmative action if you know it will not solve anything.

Well, we believe that racism is a result of ignorance. And as the world is getting more enlightened and knowledgeable, there's hope that it will eventually be eradicated from the human condition.

a reply to: AMPTAH

I have said my piece on the issue.

In a nut shell, you feel the world needs to provide blacks a crutch for up to 300 years because whit people had slaves.

You feel that other countries who had nothing to do with this should also provide that support so that they too can learn to treat blacks right.

You feel that asian students must be negatively impacted more than other races in the effort to make us all learn how to treat blacks.

You have no evidence that any of your radical suggestions of 300 years of affirmative action will work seeing as how you can have no historical reference because this is such a unique situation, and so you are suggesting all of the things I mentioned above merely on your feelings.

I disagree with these things. You can chose to interact and judge people based on their skin color, I will judge people by the content of their character.

originally posted by: Grambler
In a nut shell, you feel the world needs to provide blacks a crutch for up to 300 years because whit people had slaves.

I don't see any crutch. That's your term. Not sure what it means to you. But, affirmative action is for the society, not just for one specific group. You know the saying, help your neighbor and you'll be helped? That's the general idea.

You feel that other countries who had nothing to do with this should also provide that support so that they too can learn to treat blacks right.

Each country has it's own specific problems. So, whether a country chooses the American solution or not will depend on the state of its own society.

For example, in Brazil, things are a bit different. The blacks there have intermarried with the whites producing a large spectrum of brown skinned individuals called "mulattoes". So, it's a bit difficult to distinguish between a black and a white person, since there's a gradual scale between the extremes. As a result of this, discrimination, although still present, tends to be a bit different. There's no big affirmative action movement over there.

You feel that asian students must be negatively impacted more than other races in the effort to make us all learn how to treat blacks.

I have no clue how you arrived at that one. I pass.

You have no evidence that any of your radical suggestions of 300 years of affirmative action will work seeing as how you can have no historical reference because this is such a unique situation, and so you are suggesting all of the things I mentioned above merely on your feelings.

All of this is one big experiment. Nobody knows the ultimate outcome. All we know is that there's a problem, and this is the best fix anybody has ever come up with.

I disagree with these things. You can chose to interact and judge people based on their skin color, I will judge people by the content of their character.

Before you find out about their character, you've got to meet them, and interact with them. That's a major part of the issue. That's why schools were forced to accept students of different races, despite parent complaints etc...It's why universities look for and accept diverse students, it's all an attempt to get you to meet these other folks, so that you could make that "character" judgment with actual experience, rather than sitting in an arm chair at home "hypothecating" about how good your philosophy is. All of this requires "affirmative action" to enable you to make that nice judgement. You see, affirmative action is not about helping blacks, it's about helping you.

a reply to: AMPTAH

Well if its all about helping me and everyone else, why not help out blacks? Why do we get all of the benefit from affirmative action? I feel like we are cheating the blacks.

Are you saying that black people do not deserve all of the great personal growth they would get by providing affirmative action? Why would you be so racist as to deny black people this fantastic opportunity at personal growth?

You go ahead and keep focusing on race and choosing to benefit some over others, I will instead focus on character and not race.

originally posted by: Grambler
Well if its all about helping me and everyone else, why not help out blacks? Why do we get all of the benefit from affirmative action? I feel like we are cheating the blacks.

Right. Everybody gets the benefit of affirmative action, not just blacks.

Are you saying that black people do not deserve all of the great personal growth they would get by providing affirmative action? Why would you be so racist as to deny black people this fantastic opportunity at personal growth?

It's not about giving anybody "rewards", it's about changing "attitudes".

You go ahead and keep focusing on race and choosing to benefit some over others, I will instead focus on character and not race.

There's always "selection" going on in society. A company doesn't hire anyone that enters its doors. They pick.

We can't stop people picking, we're all picky.

But we can change perceptions, by diversifying that picky attitude, so that everyone has a good chance of being picked.

We'd hope that eventually, people are picked for just their character, but even the current President Trump likes women who look a certain way, and will not hire a beauty challenged female.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
Heaven forbid that somebody is rewarded on merit.
Can't have to many of this type or that type of people.

Too many people tie on merit, test scores don't create a wide disparity. That's why they've come up with all this other stuff.