Transgender men and pregnancy: an informed perspective

Okay well, too much time has lapsed and I need to go do some things. Until next time uh, buddy..

originally posted by: Morrad
Hang on a second. Are you seriously going to dismiss 51 studies, without even looking at them, in favour of one isolated incident?

I would take my own personal experiences above studies that dont come from

sources that are sometimes no more accurate than polls, and sorry but 51 studies

is paltry in my estimation. That one isolated incident, could be for all you know

me and in that case I would say I am in abetter place to make a judgement

Are you seriously going to suggest that your fibroid diagnosis and treatment pathway are representative of all females that have this condition?

I probably know more women on the basis of swapping info of that kind of thing

than you are privvy too and know we are not ALL the same, most would have

had the hysterectomy.

Seriously, smiley faces all over the place eletheia. The only person its really convincing is you! This subject really grates on you for some reason doesn't it! I have no problem with that but you need to throw something tangible at me not twaddle.

The subject does not grate on me ..... but I have seen what some things do

to young children. Somethings never get thought through.

but the bottom line is you are stuck with what nature gave you..... grinning face

I think medical science is awesome, miraculous but whatever they can do you

are what you were born, the smiley face was making light of the trend of breast

implants.... If it makes someone happy, well thats fine, but at the end of the day

its still only silicone?

That comes across as a sick aberrant smug gesture. Am I misreading you?

Take it any way you like ... with me what you see is what you get

I've never really put too much thought into transgender men and pregnancy until this post. I think the concern of most people reading this would be the effects of the supplemented hormones on the fetus. I doubt there is any long term data on this at the moment. If they discontinue taking hormones for the duration of the pregnancy then I don't really see what anyone is arguing about.

"Sexually" a transgender male is still a female even if their identity is different. Why would anyone think they can't conceive?

Thank you, Morrad, for bringing information about this subject to the board in an intelligent and reasonable manner. I may have a few things to add from my general study of all things trans and my own experiences but I have never known or met a transgender man, at least to my knowledge, and am far from an expert on the topic.

originally posted by: Morrad
The data suggests that inherent gender identity is never lost. Some individuals consciously struggle to retain gender identity successfully during pregnancy while some do not.

The part about retaining inherent gender identity doesn't surprise me. The fact that some don't struggle with gender dysphoria while having an obviously pregnant body does. I guess it just goes to show how different the experiences of trans people can be.

I'll just reply to a few other specific comments and take things from there.

originally posted by: rickymouse
Why would any guy in their right mind want to have a baby. It's bad enough when our wives have to deal with it. I'll stick to fixing things and working hard.

The one case I'm most familiar with that also has a local connection, is that of Thomas Beatie. He decided to become pregnant through artificial insemination because his wife was infertile and they wanted a family.

Before a lengthy divorce proceeding that was tied up in the Arizona courts for four years, Thomas went on to have two more children.

originally posted by: eletheia
For someone who wants/needs to be the opposite sex, I am confused as to WHY they would want to keep any of the organs which are gender defining?

Some things to know: Taken from the group of primarily male-to-female transgender people, of those that transition to live as the "opposite" gender full time, historical statistics I've always relied on have shown that roughly only 30% undergo genital sex reassignment surgery. In a major study done last year interviewing 28,000 transgender people, only 10% to 12% of MTFs had undergone SRS. For FTMs, the numbers are much lower still.

For those going in the female to male direction, the outcomes of sex reassignment surgery are less than satisfactory when compared to those going in the opposite direction and many FTM's don't feel it is worth it. For those that do, the options are phalloplasty which requires donor skin be grafted from the forearm or thigh and two different versions of metoidioplasty.


Source: 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey

If anyone is interested, here is an article with more perspective: 8 Myths About Transgender Men’s Genital Reconstructions

originally posted by: ketsuko
Has anyone given thought to what the impact of the residual hormonal levels might be on the infant?

Thomas Beatie's kids look healthy and happy? I'll admit to sharing some of your questions on this. I'm not a doctor. Obviously, testosterone was probably withdrawn prior to conception and for the duration of gestation.

For example, it has been speculated that girls like myself who grow to be hyper competitive are exposed to more testosterone in utero. A longer than normal ring finger is one signb of this and indeed, my ring finger is very long for a woman and I was very much into sports.

Ah yes, the 2D:4D ratio that's about a 50% to 60% accurate predictor of hormone receptivity in the womb which varies widely across ethnicities and geographic locations. Another such easily observed semi sexual dimorphic trait is carry angle of the elbow (cubital valgus). FYI, my index finger (2D) is 5mm longer than my ring finger (4D) and my carry angle is way into the female range and as far as I know, I'm XY? (For those that don't know, I was trans as a child/teen)

But is there a point where this could be damaging or impact a child's own gender identity or sexual formation?

Wait? Are you conceding that sexuality and/or gender identity could be due to in utero neurobiological development from endocrinological imbalances? That certainly supports the "born this way" paradigm that I thought you believed to be crap?

a reply to: Freija

Thanks Freija for the informative post.

a reply to: breakingbs

Just seen your infantile trans thread from December, it all makes sense now. I mean really, "I don't like trans threads". My post response would have been "Absolutely fascinating, what are you having for dinner?". Your previous comment on the redundancy of my phrase is even more fitting in this context. In both cases it isn't redundant. It is an accurate observation.

Seriously, you are unable to to grasp complex information and make rash snapshot judgements on something you have absolutely no comprehension of and attempt to politicise it (the majority of LGBT don't support this silly progressive movement but you wouldn't know that because you have had no exposure to it). Its just an excuse for your bigotry.

You had nothing of value to add to this thread but thought you would have a dig at the OP and make silly outlandish claims regarding research. You then attempt to dazzle me with a hyperbolic semantic vomit paragraph on the subject of clinical pain (which you have absolutely no comprehension of either). You then go on to talk about 'sparring'.

I'll stick with mature intellectual discussion thanks. I don't need external validation from an anonymous website to prop up my ego (unlike yourself).

a reply to: eletheia

If you are going to put one personal experience in front of science trends and claim some sort of misplaced authority over the subject then you really need to stick to Reddit, Twitter or FaceBook (read my signature).

The subject does not grate on me ..... but I have seen what some things do to young children. Something never get thought through.

Oh please stop with the children crap, you are embarrassing yourself. You don't even need to go further than the heterosexual camp to see emotional damage to children. In most cities and towns, young girls get pregnant and abuse the system. In my town it is well know that when they reach 16 their parents actively encourage them to do this so as to get council accommodation.

It is a common site in an area on the opposite side of town to me to see mothers under 20 with 3 children milking the system for all its worth and using their child credits to buy alcohol and fags (its really disgusting, that money is for the children). These people have nothing to offer society, they are the dregs. They are parasites and their children are brought up in dysfunctional homes with many turning to crime well before the age of 16.

But lets not focus on that, lets focus on Trans kids. You are a prejudiced bigot.

Take it any way you like ... with me what you see is what you get

Don't start that nonsense with me. I know EXACTLY what that comment referred to. I was merely giving you the option to retract a repugnant comment. The internet is a coward's paradise. I doubt you have the bottle to say that in real life. I have been confronted occasionally by people with your attitude in the past and I just stamp on them like a bug. Its so easy in real life to put these type of people in their place and show them for what they truly are.

Discussion is one thing, the contempt you showed in your last sentence is truly vile. You should be ashamed. If you was my mother I would disown you. In fact I did just this with my father when I reached my late teens. I was so ashamed of him and his bigoted views.

a reply to: ketsuko

What I have discovered:

Testosterone has a very rapid half-life (70 mins). Females requite 30mg/day. Transgender females take around 100-150mg/day through various transport methods. The long-acting ones being depot injection (weekly) or implants which are replaced every year. Vigorous exercise or stress in pregnancy increases testosterone levels whereas sustained exercise, like jogging reduce, testosterone.

Professor Simon Baron Cohen, a psychologist and Director of the Autism Research Center at Cambridge University, has a special inter­est in male/female brain types, particularly in relation to autism, and wanted to find out whether levels of testosterone in the womb affected behavior. Luckily, the University hospital is a regional center for amniocentesis (a procedure in which fluid is taken from the amniotic sac for analysis) and once the necessary tests had been done, it was their policy to freeze the remainder of the sample. Baron Cohen and his team contacted women whose samples were still in the deep freeze, who now had toddlers and were happy to bring them in for an assessment of their behavior. The researchers found that the higher the levels of prenatal testosterone in the amniotic fluid, the less eye contact the toddlers made, and the smaller their vocabulary. These toddlers were seen again when they were four years old. By this time, those children that had had the highest level of pre­natal testoerone had lower social skills and more restricted interests than those who had had lower levels of testosterone in their bath of amniotic fluid.

Fetal testosterone clearly affects the brain in some way and there­fore influences behavior for the rest of the baby’s life. In a nutshell, the more you have in the womb, the more of a systemizer you are; the less you have, the more of an empathizer you are. While of course baby boys produce more testosterone, baby girls also pro­duce it, some almost to the levels of the least producing boys. Both sexes are subjected to the hormonal environment in the mother, which is yet another source of testosterone (and indeed oestrogen). In addition to the mother’s natural levels of testosterone (which vary from woman to woman), more may come from other sources.

The study in my OP also highlights the need for better availability of contraception education with Trans males taking testorerone and the risks of unplanned pregnancy.

The article above also touches on female characteristics with fetal exposure to testosterone which Freija has has already mentioned.

Hormones Factors in Fetus Gender and Child Future Development

originally posted by: Morrad
If you are going to put one personal experience in front of science trends and claim some sort of misplaced authority over the subject.

Everybody makes judgements on their own experiences they are the only ones

best placed to do so .... If someone tells me something is black and I see grey

so be it its grey.

Oh please stop with the children crap, you are embarrassing yourself. You don't even need to go further than the heterosexual camp to see emotional damage to children. In most cities and towns, young girls get pregnant and abuse the system. In my town it is well know that when they reach 16 their parents actively encourage them to do this so as to get council accommodation.
It is a common site in this area to see mothers under 20 with 3 children milking the system for all its worth and using their child credits to buy alcohol and fags (its really disgusting, that money is for the children). These people have nothing to offer society, they are the dregs. They are parasites and their children are brought up in dysfunctional homes with many turning to crime well before the age of 16.

Sure that goes on but that isnt my responsibility, and its not possible to save

them all. However I have children so again I have personal experience from

both the cradle to the grave, there is nothing more interesting and rewarding

than to see an infant grow up to adulthood. You will only know that reward

second hand ..... its not the same.

But lets not focus on that, lets focus on Trans kids. You are a prejudiced bigot.

Thank you for that...

I dont know how you arrived to that conclusion? I dont believe any of my posts

discussed trans children?

I never refer to children as kids! pet hate of mine ...kids are the progeny of goats,

I could go with the same angst as you and tell you to have some respect!

Children deserve respect too.

Don't start that nonsense with me. I know EXACTLY what that comment referred to. I was merely giving you the option to retract a repugnant comment.

???????????

The internet is a coward's paradise. I doubt you have the bottle to say that in real life. I have been confronted occasionally by people with your attitude in the past and I just stamp on them like a bug. Its so easy in real life to put these type of people in their place and show them for what they truly are Discussion is one thing,
the contempt you showed in your last sentence is truly vile. You should be ashamed.

???????????

What you see is what you get with me, on the internet and RL

I am at a loss to what you are referring to ..... but as I never say anything

I dont believe or mean here or in RL. I dont think I will be making any

retractions.

If you was my mother I would disown you

If you were my son ..... The chances were that I may have disowned you first!!

Everybody makes judgements on their own experiences they are the only ones

Spoken like a true bigot. You have excelled yourself.

However I have children so again I have personal experience from both the cradle to the grave, there is nothing more interesting and rewarding than to see an infant grow up to adulthood. You will only know that reward second hand ..... its not the same.

Pretty low shot and pretty lame. I have heard the argument 'you have no idea as a gay man what its like bring up children' numerous times before. In all cases its when I have pulled up individuals for poor parenting skills and the mother (usually an aggressive vile bitch) tries to use this as a form of a attack. On all counts they have failed miserably.

You made a massive presumption there eletheia, I have a son. On top of that I have years of experience nursing children often at very dark times in their lives. T&Cs don't allow me to respond in an appropriate way to that comment.

Calling children kids isn't showing disrespect. What planet are on! Do you seriously believe your pet hates are even a topic worthy of discussion? Is that the only argument you can make? I missed the born out of Trans kids, it referred to kids born from Trans parents. Your main argument is the psychological and emotion concerns of children born from trans parents. I went out of my way to provide research for you. You dismissed it without even reading it and claim one experience of your own trumps everything (another prize example of a bigot). You are an elderly woman who has obviously lived a very sheltered or insular life. Seriously do you actually know what a bigot is? Are you not aware how stupid and embarrassing your comments are? Do you have any form of education after high school?

You are also trying to deflect you vile comment. You stated, on a Trans thread, that surgery cannot change who you are with a grinning face. You also attempted to diminish the plight of Trans people to comparing them to breast augmentation which cis females have. You would need a pretty low IQ to not understand what that implies. It vile, its repulsive and its derogatory.

If you were my son ..... The chances were that I may have disowned you first!!

That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Unconditional love of a mother lol

By the way. After 30 years my father attempted to come back with his tail between his legs as he's elderly and failing with heart disease. Should I allow him to ease his guilty conscience before he snuffs it? Absolutely not. In his dying moments he will have to live with what he has done. ie he placed his own bigoted homophobic views above the welfare and happiness of his own son. Scum like that don't deserve kids. In an ideal world he would be sterile. Thankfully my mother is the complete opposite. She's 74 and pro trans and pro non-binary. I am so proud of her.

If you are honest its not just trans with you, or gay people, its even Muslims. I have seen your veiled digs (under the T&Cs conditions). You might be like that in RL but I am pretty sure most folk would dismiss your views a irrelevant and silly silly.

a reply to: Freija

I had a chance to look through the links you provided. The myths link is very interesting. Its really amazing how phalloplasty has advanced in the last 20 years. I was looking at photos just a few weeks ago.

a reply to: Morrad

Just noticed an error. Unable to correct due to exceeding time limit.

Second sentence should read:

Transgender males require 30mg/day. Transgender females take around 100-150mg/day through various transport methods.

originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: Freija

I had a chance to look through the links you provided. The myths link is very interesting...

I looked at your latest link too. It's a good one that I have bookmarked for future use so thanks. It was interesting to see the 2D:4D finger length thing mentioned too. It pretty much backs up what I said above.

Sidenote: maybe lighten up a little?

a reply to: Freija

I am miffed my educational thread has been derailed. ATS is just an uphill struggle these days. There should be sharing of knowledge and progression of ideas through mature discussion. Instead we see rigid viewpoints, bigotry, derailment and infantile behaviour. Prejudice is rife on ATS. It has to be confronted and called to account.

Narcissism on social media has become the new herpes, particularly on ATS. breakingbs is a prime example. They have it but will never admit to having it.

Debates on these sorts of issues are only possible because western civilization has too much luxury and time on its hands.

a reply to: kosmicjack

This applies equally to virtually all subjects on ATS, in fact most of social media as well. This is common knowledge. Its not really worth making a statement about it. I'm not sure why you feel the need to single out one topic either.

double post