Wrongly Demonized - Promoters of Goodness & Freedom - Knights Templar, Freemasonry, & Illuminati

a reply to: pheonix358

Because the other side did not want their secrets exposed and thus would act against them
[/quotin ] Do you think that the Skull and Bones secret order would be in a similar position ?

a reply to: Sahabi
Wow, there's more deflection in that post than a Droideka shield friend

Firstly, banking, in and of itself, is not evil.

Hence why I said USURY and showed where in the Templars' OWN faith it is condemned. Jesus flipping the money-changers tables ring a bell?

Secondly, there are countless Biblical Laws that many Christians and Jews break daily.

The good ol' "but they do it too" argument. Again, the point is, you hold these hypocrites in such high regard like they are some special group. They're just as corrupt as every other power group. They have no moral high ground and are deliberately blaspheming their faith. Not to mention morality, when the "Poor Knights" were the wealthiest bunch of brigands in the world.

But the truth is, all of mankind practiced slavery at some point in history.

Great, I never said they didn't, yet again a deflection to "everyone else does it". My whole point was that the Masons claim they only accept men of good character, but that apparently includes slave owners, pedophiles and rapists.

At least the U.S. Constitution "allowed for editions and amendments to be made to the law of the land, foreseeing the changing needs of future developments. The integrity of the framework of the United States allowed for the future abolishment of slavery, voting and civil rights for minorities and former-Africans (slave & free), and equality for women."

"We're sh###y now but in the future we might not be so judge us by that"
As I pointed out some time ago, people like Albert Pike held massive influence and could have used it to protest slavery, but he gave a bullsh# cop-out answer of 'God'll make em free when he feels like it'. Empty words, no actions, evil prevails.

You are speaking about the rise to power of the Jesuits, not the Illuminati. If the Bavarian Illuminati and the Jesuits were one-in-the-same, they would not have been trying to publicly expose and ruin each other.

Great, once again I didn't say they were the same. But they are related. All exposing each other proves is that they were rivals, NOT enemies. Remember when Barack and Hillary had a word war in the primaries?

Because he made that statement directly after reading John Robison's erroneous; "Proofs of a Conspiracy", and at the time, there was no way to peer-review or substantiate Robison's fictitious claims. We now know that John Robison's book is inaccurate.

So one of if not the highest ranking/most respected masons in the US just believed the book without thinking? Surely he could have refuted it if anyone could.

Women have always played an important role in religion. They served as Priestesses and Oracles of the ancient cults and Mystery Traditions.
Despite the traditional landmarks, we discover that in the past, Regular Lodges in Europe have actually admitted women and free men of color into the fraternity.

...NOTHING to do with what I said, and a deflection. You keep ignoring my points. Masonry didnt allow women, jews, black people, etc so they weren't enlightened or progressive in their time. Now they are, when society moved that way. My whole point AGAIN was that they were prejudiced and thus neither more moral nor of better character than society. More aware, perhaps, but certainly not more moral. (other than Prince Hall and a couple, as I said before).

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Hello there my Brother. Thank you for taking the time to check out the thread!

The OP section on Light was not an apologetic on Satan. However, I do apologize if my train of narration wasn't more clear.

I was attempting to draw attention to the mistranslation in Isaiah, which once corrected, completely removes all Luciferian connotation to Satan. The only literal Light-Bearing Morning Star and Divine Light of the Bible is that of God and Jesus. In referencing Isaiah, in no way was I alluding to, nor considering Satan or the Serpent at all.

The intent was to combat the old superstitious conceptions of Light being viewed as wicked or Satanic, and to help words, etymologies, and roots relating to "Light", "Lux", and "Illume", to be recognized as good.

I am aware of Luciferian mythologies that also rely on the mistranslation of Heylel Ben Shachar to enrich their allegories. They tend to interpret the character of the Serpent as heroically imparting knowledge to mankind in the Garden of Eden,... which mirrors the mythology of Prometheus stealing fire (knowledge) from the gods and imparting it to mankind,... which they then erroneously tie together with the mistranslated verse in Isaiah, i.e., "Lucifer",... to reason that Lucifer is good and just, while LORD God (YHWH) is restrictive and tyrannical. This interpretation is similar to some Gnostic and Hellenistic teachings of an oppressive or malevolent Demiurge or Archon. In no way is the OP overtly or covertly alluding to these Luciferian mythologies.




Instead of any connection to Satan or Lucifer whatsoever, I personally opine that Isaiah 14 is addressed to the King of Babylon, referencing a page out of the Canaanite Religion. The Canaanite reference may have been intended to cite a commonly known mythos, to strike a forceful message to the Babylonian King.

We must once again refer to the original Hebrew to uncover the clues:

4. That thou shalt take up this proverb against the King of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! The golden city ceased!
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12. How art thou fallen (naphalta [נָפַ֥לְתָּ]) from heaven (mis'sa mayim [מִשָּׁמַ֖יִם]), Heylel Ben Shachar (הֵילֵ֣ל בֶּן־ שָׁ֑חַר)! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13. You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of El (אֵ֖ל [God]); I will sit enthroned on the mount (be-har [בְּהַר־]) of assembly, on the utmost of (be-yarkete [בְּיַרְכְּתֵ֥י]) Mount Zephon (tsaphon [צָפֽוֹן׃]).

14. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like Elyon (לְעֶלְיֽוֹן׃ [Most High]).”


15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to Sheol (שְׁא֛וֹל), to the sides of the pit."

- Isaiah 14:4 & 12-15

[Verse 12]
The figure in question literally; "fell from Heaven". This rules out any human being.


[Verse 13]
El was the Canaanite deity known as the Father of the Gods, as he is said to have had 70 Sons (Bene Elim).

Mount Zephon is known today as Mount Aqraa. It is upon this mountain that Baal Hadad, Son of El and Athirat/Asherah, established his throne and sanctuary. From this event of the Baal Cycle, we get the name/title: Baal-Zephon.


[Verse 14]
Elyon was the Canaanite deity known as the primordial Most High God, who birthed primordial existence, including the Father deity El.


According to the Canaanite Religion, Baal Hadad was a Son of El, who sought to usurp El's authority, succeed Elyon, and establish a throne on Mount Zephon. Isaiah 14:12-14 illustrates this perfectly. We get an even stronger affirmation if we correlate Shachar's Venusian symbolism to the Venusian symbolism of Athirat and Asherah. Could Heyl-El and Baal Hadad actually be one-one-the-same?


I feel that the citation of this Canaanite myth would have been some-what familiar to the Babylonian King, as the ambitions of Baal Hadad against El and Elyon is similar to the Mesopotamian mythos of Marduk's power struggle against Enki, Enlil, and Anu.


We've got a lot more to discuss. I'll catch up with the rest of your comments as soon as I can.

a reply to: Sahabi

Sorry for me getting or my mind going off the rails a bit on the thread .You can imagine the trip was a and , and , and where is this going . Loved the ending LOL :>) A thread not only about words but the context at the time ,as well as the world view at the time would be a excellent one to do .We in the 21st century are prone to applying our context on older writings and miss the mark by a mile . In the larger vid interview with MH he brought up the story with Peter and the rock on which he would build the Church . There is a RCC interpretation and a Protestant one ...He postulates for a third that references and pulls in other context that bests explains it . The rock where they were standing was where both the Bible and other cultures at the time believed is the place where the god of the death descended to and was considered where the gates to the under world was . ie. the gates of hell will not prevail against the church Christ Him self was going to build .

Thanks for the thread though . It was a great brake for my mind that was stuck in the political mud pit .you saved me :>)

a reply to: Ridhya

Putting it into a spectrum from black to white (dark to light) they had to be in the gray area for the most part . Watching how a seemingly peaceful protest can turn mighty ugly pretty quick illustrates it . A crowd turning into a mob made up of both good and bad actors . Because we can spot evil we know its still around .But it too has a shelf life and maybe a better before date . I think Jesus said that offences will happen and He also said something about casting the first stone . Today we have the Skull and Bones ...We get some pretty high ups moving through its dark corners . This vid report looks into its beginnings .

originally posted by: SpeakerofTruth
Heh... I have told people before, the ancient illuminati isn't the one we speak of today. Everything has been corrupted from its original form. Sad time we live in. "Time of sorrows."

I know what ya mean! Many people are unknowingly in error when they refer to the NWO movement or the Media Conglomerates as "Illuminati". Many rap and pop musical artists are falsely labeled as "Illuminati", simply because the musician displays or wears certain symbols. I do not doubt that they may be affiliated with other groups, or that perhaps their manager, promoter, or marketing department insists that they flaunt esoteric and occult symbols to produce a buzz-factor or following hipster trends, but they are certainly not the Illuminati.

Nothing is Illuminating or Enlightening about their ego-personas, character examples, or messages in their music. It's as simple as that; the industry music artists who are accused of being Illuminati are actually in clear contradiction to the teachings and principles of Adam Weishaupt and the Bavarian Illuminati. They are of a different flock.

originally posted by: tikbalang
a reply to: Sahabi

I always assumed Knights Templar praised Baphomet ( i dont know why, stories most likely ), but i never really checked the data. I found some info, with linking it to France, but i there is no direct correlation between the both , only thing i found was the lesser mysteries.. Seems i learn something new..

Thank you

Hello again tikbalang. The false accusation of Templars worshipping Baphomet originates from the treacherous Inquisition of King Philip IV of France and Pope Clement V.

Templars were arrested and brutally tortured until they confessed to the pre-formulated accusations of Baphomet worship. As soon as the torture stopped and the Knights were released, they immediately recanted their forced confessions. Additionally, Pope Clement V later absolved and cleared the Templars of all charges and accusations.

Although previously known to exist, the authentic "Chinon Parchment" was only rediscovered in 2001. This document is the Vatican's official statement of Templar innocence. For all these years, King Philip's lies against the Templars were able to go unchecked, which led many conspiracy theorists and anti-Templar propagandists to perpetuate the deceit and dishonesty of the fraudulent inquisition, including the lie of Baphomet worship.

originally posted by: tikbalang
a reply to: Sahabi

Could you tell me more about your co-freemason lodge?

What would you like to know specifically?

Le Droit Humain (L.D.H.) admits men and women equally within the same Lodge, regardless of race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, or no-religion. Members are regarded solely upon their character and actions, which must be aligned to goodness and positive virtues.

L.D.H. is a minority, and although considered "Irregular" and not recognized by the "Regular" Freemasonic Lodges (deistic, male only U.S. and England Grand Lodges), L.D.H. traces its origins and workings to the same original founders and revisionists of Regular Freemasonry.

We work the Scottish Rite from the 1st to 33rd Degree, and offer other York Rite Degrees. We follow the European Continental Style of Freemasonry, which originated with the French Grande Orient traditions. We also work according to "Traditional Observance", which includes an average time-frame of one year between Craft Degrees. Holding a Degree for a minimum of one year allows us to better understand and incorporate our lessons, and is a good way to ascertain a member's commitment.

a reply to: Sahabi

Nothing is Illuminating or Enlightening about their ego-personas, character examples, or messages in their music. It's as simple as that; the industry music artists who are accused of being Illuminati are actually in clear contradiction to the teachings and principles of Adam Weishaupt and the Bavarian Illuminati. They are of a different flock.

There is a notion of what is called useful idiots .For a larger part of pop culture it leanings are left of center .Throw into the mix the drug scene of the 60's with '___' and the visuals get kind of wonky .Not to mention the sounds that could be described anything other then music or entertaining for that matter. But such is pop culture and the celebrity cult that follows it . eta...I guess ATS does not like that 3 lettered
acronym for drugs that makes you see bugs ...who would have thought

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: Sahabi

One simple question for you.

If they are for all good things, why the secrecy?

• pheonix358 is correct, ever since the 4th Century rise of Christian Authoritative Institutions, any dissenting thought or non-ordained scientific developments were persecuted by the authorities. Inquisitions were a scary thing back then.


• Another reason for secrecy is that; in philosophic and metaphysical endeavors, if someone point-blank tells you something that you did not have a chance to work on or think of for yourself,... 1. It loses it's importance, and 2. You may reject it. If a very important concept is told to you directly, it forever takes away the magical moment of epiphany and self-realization.

For example, you can not be told who you are, you must determine that on your own. As soon as someone else tells us who we are, we push it away as an unwanted judgmental opinion.


• Another point is akin to Jesus' teaching in Matthew 7:6; "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

This means, certain teachings must be carefully imparted only to those who are worthy,... because a wicked person will use the teachings for wicked intentions,... and a person incapable of understanding will lead themselves astray with their own error.

a reply to: iTruthSeeker

I am glad that it didn't disappoint you, and I am honestly grateful that you took the time to read through the material and comment. Thank you




a reply to: FamCore

It is a tragic shame! We have come so far scientifically, intellectually, and as a collective mankind, that we could all literally be living in the long-dreamt of utopia. Utopia is an actual possibility, but the beautiful dream is gasping for air amidst the tentacles




a reply to: IAMNOTYOU

In Don King's voice; "Only on ATS"

a reply to: Sahabi

It's completely true, and indeed a tragic shame. All this battling over peoples hearts and minds, if only the the protagonists could reconcile their own hearts and minds, or ego's and hearts more like it...

a reply to: Sahabi

I think its a good thing with each stage letting the seasons pass, i dont like the fast version ive seen to many have, cause i consider it being more ambitious than a spiritual journey..

What ive seen most people joining Freemasonry on the lodges excluding woman, is that its based on a more CBT approach..

I like the approach on a simple thing called;" Learn to love yourself "

The lesser mysteries was a fun story and anyone can learn them,but the greater mysteries are so beautiful..
--

a reply to: Ridhya

Hello again Ridhya. I truly appreciate you helping to enrich this thread. Let us work together to find the truth of the matter through as much tangible evidence as we can.

"Wow, there's more deflection in that post than a Droideka shield friend"

I sincerely apologize for any confusions and/or failures on my behalf to better articulate myself. In my mind, I was answering each one of your rebuttals as directly and precisely as I could.

I will give it a better effort, because the last thing I am trying to do is deflect or avoid any issues. Even if I am wrong, I seek to face the truth and/or the most accurate conclusions. I am not afraid of being wrong, because I have had my preconceived world-view paradigm shattered several times.

"Hence why I said USURY and showed where in the Templars' OWN faith it is condemned."

".....deliberately blaspheming their faith. Not to mention morality,...."

The articles and books that accuse the Templars of usury, blasphemy, and immorality are based upon the corrupt and fallacious Inquisitions of King Philip IV.

¿Can you please provide us with any contemporary documentation, contemporary accounts, or contemporary evidence proving the Templars practiced usury, blasphemy, or immorality?

My contemporary evidence is the 1308 documentation from the Vatican (Chinon Parchment) that completely clears, absolves, and declares the innocence of the Templars of all sinful accusations raised by the Inquisition of King Philip IV.

The false accusations only came from the domain of King Philip IV, while other countries found no substantiation of sinful crimes being committed by the Templars in their domains.

"Jesus flipping the money-changers tables ring a bell?"

In the Gospels, Jesus never condemned money. When asked about money, he simply said;
"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

He simply placed money in the category of material physicality, which he contrasted against spirituality. No condemnation, just distinction.


The Cleansing of the Temple incident was not an act against usury or banking. Instead, the incident was a protest against corrupting the holy sanctuary of the temple in the pursuit of material and financial benefit.

Jesus drove out the merchants, the people who were buying and selling animals, and the money-changers.

Despite popular belief, the "money-changers" were not usury practitioners or bankers. In all Gospel instances of money-changers being chased out of the temple, the original Greek word; Kollybistōn, (κολλυβιστῶν) is used.

In this specific context, "Kollybistōn" is defined by multiple Christian Concordances as:
"a money-changer, who changed heathen into Jewish money, for payment into the Temple treasury."

Jesus didn't rebuke banking, he rebuked the decadence that was polluting the temple:
"do not make my Father's house a house of trade." ... "It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.”

Mark 11:15-19
Matthew 21:12-13
Luke 19:45-46
John 2:13-16

"Poor Knights" were the wealthiest bunch of brigands in the world."

¿Can you please provide contemporary evidence, other than Philip IV's Inquisition, that the Templars made their money illegally or immorally?

The Knights Templars started off poor, and only later increased in wealth. There are many Biblical instances of God blessing his followers with great wealth and fortune.

• Job was blessed in wealth and all things because of his devotion.

• After being sold into slavery, Joseph was made a wealthy vizier and advisor of Pharaoh.

• Moses, after being cast into the Nile, was raised as a wealthy royal prince.

• Shepherd boy David was made into a great and wealthy king.






I will address all of the rest of your points soon. Please let me know.

May the force be with you.

a reply to: Ridhya

"Again, the point is, you hold these hypocrites in such high regard like they are some special group."

They are special, because during a dangerous time of totalitarianism and ignorance, the Templars campaigned the first successful political opposition against monarchy (Magna Carta), while Freemasons helped to ground-break the progress of liberty and science.

I am not making the claim that anyone is perfect or infallible, just that, many of our modern rights, liberties, knowledge, and luxuries are a direct result of their work and contributions, as mentioned in the OP: VI. Enlightenment, VII. Revolution, and 10/19.

"people like Albert Pike held massive influence and could have used it to protest slavery, but he gave a bullsh# cop-out answer of 'God'll make em free when he feels like it'.

I agree, not just Albert Pike, but Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and all of mankind should have condemned the wickedness of slavery millennia ago.

As Albert Pike was apathetic and indifferent to the inhumanity of slavery,... on the other hand, Freemasons mentioned in the OP; John Jay and Nicolas Marquis de Condorcet were staunch advocates of abolition, and John Jay actually ended slavery in the state of New York.

"So one of if not the highest ranking/most respected masons in the US just believed the book without thinking? Surely he could have refuted it if anyone could."

George Washington letters warning about the dangerous Illuminati

George Washington did refute one claim laid out in the book:

"I believe notwithstanding, that none of the Lodges in this Country are contaminated with the principles ascribed to the Society of the Illuminati."

I just re-read the Washington quote that you provided earlier. I misunderstood it the first time I replied to you. My mistake. Now, reanalyzing the quote, I realized that it also refutes Illuminati infiltration in the United States:

“It was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Iluminati, and principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more fully satisfied of this fact than I am.

The idea that I meant to convey, was, that I did not believe that the Lodges of Free Masons in this Country had, as Societies, endeavoured to propagate the diabolical tenets of the first, or pernicious principles of the latter."

Washington did not have time to fully critique the book:

"My occupations are such, that but little leisure is allowed me to read News Papers, or Books of any kind; the reading of letters, and preparing answers, absorb much of my time."

He didn't have time, or the internet, or FBI/CIA files, nor the Library of Congress to launch a full-scale review. Washington did know that the Illuminati-Freemasonry connection was a farce, and he knew that the Illuminati did not spread to America. As mentioned in post 14/19 of the OP, Illuminati influence did not spread beyond the vicinity of Bavaria.

a reply to: Ridhya

"Masonry didnt allow women, jews, black people, etc so they weren't enlightened or progressive in their time."

You are completely wrong.

John Pine was a Black Man initiated in one of the original predecessor Lodges that later formed the Grand Lodge of England. This Black Freemason even etched the engravings featured on the famous "Anderson's Constitutions".

Gunnilda the Mason was a female an operative Mason, with documentation of her membership dated to 1256.

The Honourable Elizabeth Aldworth, a.k.a.; "The Lady Freemason", was initiated between 1710-1712.

Freemasonry and Judaism





As stated in OP post 18/19;

"There is no international centralized authority in Regular Freemasonry. Countries and States are partitioned between the Jurisdictions of sovereign Grand Lodges who are in mutual recognition of one another."

Freemasonry wasn't prejudice during its early inception. On the contrary, some Freemasons were prejudice while some weren't,... some Lodges were prejudice while some weren't.

a reply to: Sahabi

" A mason must never take pride in his work, a Masons work holds a lifetime, but he can never enjoy the fruit, even the simplest of ways or the greatest of deeds, must come from the character within. "

I enjoyed the work you made, cause i have use for it with when i sit with Father Time..

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

If they are for all good things, why the secrecy?

Because the other side did not want their secrets exposed and thus would act against them ... as they did.

P

"The other side"? Whose secrets? Exposure of secrets of evil people would not mean good people need to keep secrets. Good has no reason to hide.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

• "other side": the Inquisitors of the Authoritative Religious Institutions.

• "whose secrets": the secrets of knowledge, science, and philosophy.

"Exposure of secrets of evil people would not mean good people need to keep secrets. Good has no reason to hide."

People were arrested, tortured, and executed by religious inquisitions simply for propagating science, philosophy, and alternative religious interpretations. This was plenty reason for intellectuals to work in secrecy.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Good day to you!

Sorry for me getting or my mind going off the rails a bit on the thread .You can imagine the trip was......

No need to apologize for anything at all Brother

I don't have to imagine the trip, I lived it out myself.

When I first got into global conspiracy theories, and many years after, I believed nearly all of the false accusations against the Templars, Bavarian Illuminati, and Freemasonry. I used to place the NWO movement squarely at their feet. But years of incremental research slowly dispelled those errors of mine. I went from propagating against Freemasonry, to eventually joining a Freemasonic Order. The thrill-ride of the thread mirrors my real-world journey.

We in the 21st century are prone to applying our context on older writings and miss the mark by a mile

I agree! We have to consider as much historic context as we can, not only the contemporary context, but also the context of history that led up to that moment. Then, we must try to put ourselves in the shoes and eyes of that era,... their cultural norms, taboos, and given knowledge, technology, and government. It can be a surmountable task, but we lose so much when we impose 21st Century standards upon the past.

The rock where they were standing was where both the Bible and other cultures at the time believed is the place where the god of the death descended to and was considered where the gates to the under world was .

Contemporary to the time of the early rise of Authoritative Christian Institutions; the Mithraic Mysteries would be in agreement with this interpretation. There are sculptures and mosaics of Mithras emerging from a stone.

There is a notion of what is called useful idiots .

Good point, and I agree. I am of the opinion that the mainstream industry musicians are propagating moral decay by the ambitions and goals of the Media Conglomerates, which are connected to the major financial institutions and NWO movement.

Where is Babylon and especially Mystery Babylon ?

My word is not authoritative, but my personal research and experiences have led me to clear Freemasonry and the Bavarian Illuminati of any affiliation with Mystery Babylon.

Though controversial, I am of the opinion that Babylonian-inspired Judaism (Talmud/Pharisaic/Rabbinical) and the Roman Catholic Priesthood are the main bodies of Mystery Babylon, and serve as the religious-front for the NWO movement.

Do you think that the Skull and Bones secret order would be in a similar position ?

Skull and Bones founders and influential members have direct links to the institutions and organizations mentioned in OP post 16 & 17, have publicly articulated NWO sympathies, and have lobbied and made political maneuvers to cement the NWO movement. By their own words, actions, and affiliations, Skull and Bones are a NWO Globalist organization.

a reply to: Ridhya

The good ol' "but they do it too" argument.

I apologize that my response gave you this impression, it was not my intent.

Simply, you cite Christian theology to curse the Templars.

• Firstly, the false accusations have been factually disproven by contemporary evidence (Chinon Parchment).

• Secondly, if we cite Christian theology to curse a Christian, we are in error if we ignore the words of Jesus regarding sin. Matthew 7:1-5, John 8:1-11.

"but they do it too" is not my argument. My argument is if we judge Christians based on Christian theology, we must consider what Jesus said to a sinner;

"Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

Remember when Barack and Hillary had a word war in the primaries?

The historic and environmental context between modern U.S. politics is vastly different than that of the circumstances of the 16th, 17th, and 18th Centuries.

You are comparing apples to elephants.

Modern U.S. politics is a game of chess that utilizes the emotions and divisions of society to dominate and perpetuate the Singular Party that is mistakenly viewed as a Two Party system.

The rivalry between the Bavarian Illuminati and the Jesuits was vastly different. In their contextual time and environment, monarch and religious inquisitions still wielded power. People could be arrested, tortured, executed, face career/financial ruin, and be exiled for opposing the kings and popes.

The rivalry between the Bavarian Illuminati and the Jesuits was no simple bickering like today's politics. The back and forth exposing of each other put their very lives at stake. Modern politicians simply lose votes or financial contributors for being exposed,... while the Bavarian Illuminati and the Jesuits had authoritative edicts imposed against them by monarchs and the papacy; their lives were on the line.

Very, very different circumstances.

yet again a deflection to "everyone else does it".

I once again apologize for giving you this impression.

I will never justify slavery. Period. Simply, if we judge people from eras and times past, we must consider the historic context of their time and the historic context that led up to that moment.

My stating that slavery was a world-wide practice is NOT a justification or deflection. It is an affirmation that mankind has, in the past, made gradual steps to evolve from barbarism to wisdom.

"We're sh###y now but in the future we might not be so judge us by that"

¿Can you please give us examples of cultures that instantaneously emerged without any ignorance, immorality, cruelty, barbarism, or inhumanity?

The point is,.... mankind has collectively been growing toward compassion and kindness. In the past, mankind was animalistic and barbarous. Through the progression of eras, we have been collectively improving and getting closer to Love.

We were "sh###y" in the past and have gotten better since. We are still somewhat "sh###y" now, and have lots of room to grow and improve.

• Do you disagree that we are closer to global unity and goodness now, as compared to the millennia past?

• Do you disagree that we are imperfect now, and have room to improve in the future?