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Native American/Indonesian Religion

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posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 02:47 AM
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Why are we so much disconnected with the ways that served our ancestors for centuries? Were they really worthy, or just the thing of the tiems, which had to pass and give road to technology? Have you ever asked yourself similar questions? I do. And to find the answer was not easy. And still is not. For me the best place to research this topic was by reviewing of what hmanity preserved from the "Character" of the native nations around the world. This "Native Character" could be found in my personal opinion best shwon, in their own most sacred and intimate self-expression - The Myth. Their Religion.


The earth and the sky came together and spawned six children: Tawhiri, the god of weather; Rongo, the god of crops; Tu, the god of war; Tangaroa, the god of the sea; Tane, the god of the forests; and Haumia, the god of plants. According to the myth, the children didn’t have enough space to live because their parents were very close together, resulting in an effort to separate Rangi and Papa so that they would have more space. They rebelled and successfully separated their parents when Tane cut the arms of their father, Rangi, so that he couldn’t hold their mother anymore. The children were then able to see the light and the sky for the first time.


Click


"In our culture, we are taught the same as our generation, from mother to mother. Our tradition is mainly about teaching your children the same skills you were taught. In a way, I'm not different from my parents or grandparents. The only difference is now we live in a more modern age. We are taught to never forget where you came from, and who you were chosen to be as a human."


Click

And as all different nations have different ways of self-expression, in order for me to understand in general the "The native view of Life", I had to find the proper reads for every nation(or most of them I am interested in). Thus through the years I formed a nice pile of fascinating read, which honestly I still have not finished reading...

However, as every sentence there is bringing inspiration in my heart, I guess it would be interesting to you too. I know how hard is to find a good book on Native Religion, so humbly I offer you my collection below, for all who share the interest of Ancient Myths, like me.

The Myths of Mexico and Peru
Sacred Formulas of the Cherokee
Myths and Legends of the Sioux
Myths of China and Japan
The Religion of the Crow Indians
White Mountain Apache Texts
Apache Texts
Myths and Tales from the San Carlos Apache
Spiritual and Mental concepts of the Maori
Mythology and Rites of the British Druids
Te Tohunga


You can find it on my Profile at Yumpu. All are out of print and free to distribute for educational purposes. Hope you will keep books like this for your chldren, not only the usual Mad-Max and Star Wars epics.


edit on 5-2-2017 by Argentbenign because: Pics added




posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 03:18 AM
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Just one question. Why the title?



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 03:40 AM
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a reply to: Cloudbuster Could not get better one. Not my fault, my brother dropped me on my head when I was six months old.



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 05:18 AM
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a reply to: Argentbenign
I think you answered yourself in the first paragraph. They were a sign of their time and time marches on.
Really what you propose is looking at the past with rose colored glasses. there were violent times, times of famine etc. etc.
What the governing factor was population. In small numbers the rituals of respecting the land and it's resources was possible as can be shown with the low density of a tribe per land area.
The moment that the population increases there HAS to be abuse of the tradition ways as they prove unsustainable for the growth of the people.
That is really putting it simplistically as there are more minute governing factors involved, but I think that was the major factor.



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 05:52 AM
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I wish the image that people have that the Native Americans or what ever you prefer to refer to them by painted an accurate picture of what was found upon arriving to the new world.

People were not sitting around a campfire, smoking a peace pipe and talking about how best to get along with nature.
What the Indians were fighting was being told they can no longer continue doing the things to each other that had been going on forever. Not advocating forcing Christianity on them was the best way to do it but that was the method of the day.

I am glad the western world went to africa and put an end to cannibals.... and head hunters and all that.
I am glad that indians are not running around scalping people and such.

now if we can just get muslims to stop throwing gay people off of buildings and stuff



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 07:40 AM
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a reply to: Argentbenign




Why are we so much disconnected with the ways that served our ancestors for centuries? Were they really worthy, or just the thing of the tiems, which had to pass and give road to technology?


We seem to be locked into a time where we are bombarded by as much sensory input as possible and seem to believe that we should cram as much into a day as possible. I think that we are missing out on a lot of important information when we dismiss what our ancestors left behind for us, and that teaching is often packaged into a story or fairytale. You're looking at religion instead, which is equally fascinating.

I'd be very interested in reading some of your follow-up threads, if you decided to write some, exploring each aspect in more detail.


B x



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 08:49 AM
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a reply to: Argentbenign

Romanticizing Indiginous Culture is just as bad as dismissing it. Some of the books you provided are of Nations still in existence, one of the biggest problems is that no one listens to what they currently have to say about their own traditions. Ethnographers of the previous era's not only had an agenda but got much information out of context.

Let me explain.
Many Native creation myths as well as stories are mnemonic devices. They are designed so that the teachings unfold as the participant hearing the story matures. It is understood on one level by a child, one completely different levels as an adult. Because it is a mnemonic device without living within the culture the reader has no access to a deeper symbology in the stories plus the story has much more to it when someone versed in the culture giving the story in Oral Tradition is there to elaborate by clues barebones down, that are in no way apparent to a reader of the story.

You can surface read many of the stories in the books you have collected, but while the person telling the story assumes you will understand it, by not being "of the culture" you only WILL understand 1/2 at best.

Not that this isn't a GREAT topic!

Back to letting Indiginous Culture speak for themselves.
I saw you have several books regarding the White Mountain Apache. You missed a very significant one. Easy to do it was not well known.

books.google.com...

Basso was invited in by the White Mountain Apache to tell their story. They chose to work with him. Not part of the Nation chose to work with him, it was unanimous decision for the White Mountain Apache to release this information in book form for their own people. They reviewed it and approved.

It's not an simple read, but since Basso worked for the university also somewhat of a linguistic, ethnographic treatise.



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 10:38 AM
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a reply to: Zimnydran
I am glad the western world went to Africa and put an end to cannibals.... and head hunters and all that.

wow where to even start with this statement. do you know any history that does not come out of b movie about white people saving black people from themselves. the western world went to Africa to stripped mine it's natural resources including it's people which they imprisoned as salve to built America with.



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 10:54 AM
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a reply to: Argentbenign

Why we are disconnected in ways that seemed our ancestors were connected. Well, I assume that a lot of what was known as 'connected' occurred in ways that neither they or science could explain. Today's science and expanded knowledge of the universe allows for us to expand possibilities and how they may correlate to environment and those involved.

I continue to strive to pull back to basic simplicities instead of consume my energy in ever expanding details. I hunt for differences between cultures and times in history that stand out but speak for all humans involved.

When I think of what may be different between the generations... is the size of the Pineal Gland. Diet, environmental conditions, and a lack of unity with nature has rendered the functions of it to be limited at the least... if not all but extinct in function for all we know. Something in me believes that the realness and knowledge in dreams would steer our functions more then they do now if we had the same abilities of the Pineal Gland as our ancestors did.

It also may be a catch 22. Being able to live physical life being steered by the Pineal Gland could likely lead to lesser capabilities in the building aspects of civilization. Just as our building up of civilization, in terms of science and math, very likely has left our abilities to live life through what our spirit/heart encourage, over what logic encourages.

Our DNA is continuously adapting, providing our future generations with the subtle code changes that will better fit the environment our offspring may live in. This miracle of life is so amazing, that not only does it pass on physical traits... it also passes on brain schematics (the path electrical signals are paved), and the chemical composition of electrical processing within the body as well.

It amazes me to think that thought and emotion can and will be passed to our offspring's DNA structure. Not only does our DNA react and re-center as we live life, the environmental impact and possible DNA coding structure gets stored somewhere on the off chance we may reproduce soon! This very miracle is how all hereditary abilities and inabilities within our lives are passed from generation to generation. These abilities/inabilities/adaptations to the times are not cut off at the knees one day... we steer our lives and future generations lives... based on how we live our current lives.

We are an industrialized world now... 90% of function is performed through logic controls... leaving 10% heart control... of course these are guesstimates. Well, with the pasts connectivity to nature, I'd say those percentages are possibly reversed. So, that leads me to conclude that we all have a choice on what balance we provide our lives and the lives of those we birth into this world.



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 12:11 PM
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a reply to: Caver78




Let me explain. Many Native creation myths as well as stories are mnemonic devices.


You are absolutely spot on when you say this, and you explained in much better detail than I did. As Argentbenign has included the Druids on their list, my comment hopefully isn't too off topic.
When you start to realise that a great number of stories from my own background (which would be 'celtic' for a quick, one-word catch-all explanation) are stories of the stars, many things begin to fall into place and make sense. You begin to understand what the story-tellers were trying to say and why they wanted the story to carry on through generations.
But is is also imperative to understand the sociology of the group, how they functioned, what their landscape looked like, what they might have seen every day as they lived their lives. The amount of information packed into one story is huge, if one is to understand it fully. And the sad part is, that so many of these stories are rootless now and we can only guess as to their original meaning.

When the OP stated that they wanted to understand cultures through their religion, I was intrigued - and still am - as I would imagine that it is even harder to glean an understanding of people's daily lives, their values and norms through this medium. Hugely fascinating though, and I'm looking forwards to what others have to say in this thread.



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 12:30 PM
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a reply to: beansidhe

I'm also looking forward to where the OP takes us!



But is is also imperative to understand the sociology of the group, how they functioned, what their landscape looked like, what they might have seen every day as they lived their lives. The amount of information packed into one story is huge, if one is to understand it fully. And the sad part is, that so many of these stories are rootless now and we can only guess as to their original meaning.


You said a mouthful there and "rootless" is just an elegant and perfect description. The stories as a "device" assisted the Oral Storyteller in remembering the entire story, but it was told with emphasis on different aspects according to the age of the audience. I was also interested in reading the book on druidery the OP graciously linked us to altho now I will bear in mind those traditions are equally more like peeling the onion as well.

You would love the Keith Basso Book.
The Apache have places associated with stories. To learn they "sit the youngers" out in different places. The Place, the Story all work to educate. Once a youngster is hooked, or connects to both, the place will call them back to learn more. It's called "shooting arrows" IIRC. Like the place shoots you with an arrow to bring you back. Metaphorically of course!

I have long thought Eastern Nations have something like this but have found nary a whisper of it in all my years of looking. It's different than having ceremonial places, and places of historical importance. The Apache believe the Place does the teaching. Not a ceremony IN a Place. altho they have those as well.

Hope I explained this ok?



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 02:27 PM
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a reply to: Caver78

You explained that beautifully, as the landscape is integral to the story - both the inner and outer landscape, if you will. I love how the Apache folk take the children to hear the story in the Place it should be heard, to hear the story as seen through the story teller's eyes. When that story is centuries old, it all falls back into place when sitting in the same spot as your ancestors did, it is heard in the same way.

I'll check out the Keith Basso book, thank you. I'm always wary of these types of books, as interpretations can vary wildly depending on who is delivering the stories but as it comes recommended, I'll definitely give it a go!

A word of caution on the Davies book on Druidic Myths and Rites; he was a clergyman and so he interprets the poems through his own Christian 'goggles'. No harm in that really but it taints his understanding. Given that we know so little about them, it's still a worthwhile read. You can read it online at archive.org

But as you say, the place or Place does draw you back and do the teaching. As someone who is love with my own landscape, here in Scotland, I can understand that sentiment. It's easy to romanticise our ancestors but sometimes greater learning comes from understanding the ugly truths as well as the beautiful minds who conjured up the stories for us.



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 06:24 PM
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Quoting Argentbenign,

This "Native Character" could be found in my personal opinion best shwon, in their own most sacred and intimate self-expression - The Myth. Their Religion.


Without the landscape and the animals the myth and religion is only 1/2. All of these things are intertwined. Each Culture has places and animals interwoven into the fabric of their everyday lives.

Quoting TTobban,


When I think of what may be different between the generations... is the size of the Pineal Gland. Diet, environmental conditions, and a lack of unity with nature has rendered the functions of it to be limited at the least... if not all but extinct in function for all we know. Something in me believes that the realness and knowledge in dreams would steer our functions more then they do now if we had the same abilities of the Pineal Gland as our ancestors did.

It also may be a catch 22. Being able to live physical life being steered by the Pineal Gland could likely lead to lesser capabilities in the building aspects of civilization. Just as our building up of civilization, in terms of science and math, very likely has left our abilities to live life through what our spirit/heart encourage, over what logic encourages.


I don't know that it's the failing or underused Pineal Gland, as much as the more civilized we get the smaller our world gets. We go from home to work, when we travel it's in herds on planes, cruise ships, we travel to other cities or to our families in nice little neighborhoods.

Sure we "make time" for nature, we do a hike or a camping trip but we aren't living it anymore. I don't know that we lost abilities from developing others, like math and science, as much as we were never taught the ones we used to depend on. They kind of fell by the wayside and are equally "rootless" as Beansidhe called it.

I know some people get a little enthused using the pharmcidical portions of certain ceremonies to "find these way" but if you think about it, it's would be like drugging yourself to relearn to use a bow and arrow. Probably a bad idea and not going to work either. Call me "old school" but cherry picking without living within the Culture and learning how they see the world, is disrespectful. Religions or Spirituality isn't like going to the grocery store.

Thanks for the heads up about Davies bias! Good to know.

Another thing not taken into consideration with some of the Ethnographic materials is, as a friend told me, everyone had an ethnographer at one point and great hilarity was had by telling them all kinds of outlandish things for fun. Apparently they ate it up. In fact there were occasional competitions to see how far they could take things then they would read about it once published, everyone amused beyond belief!!!

Now as outlandish as it seems it never occurred to them that these publications would be believed, OR that in some cases this would be all that remained of "A People". Unless you are IN that Culture it's impossible in some cases to know what was fabricated and what isn't.

Really some of the stories I was told were riotous. Some dude pupping along behind a Native Grandma, sitting at the kitchen table being told all manner of "fibs" as the kids giggled underfoot. Trying to document every single thing in extreme accuracy and being diligent finding out She wasn't off to do something "mysterious" but he'd followed her to the outhouse!!!!



posted on Feb, 6 2017 @ 12:04 PM
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a reply to: Caver78 Oh, yes, romanticizing isn't the right approach to look at past cultures. Did I did it? Shame on me. You also state that it would be hard to "feel" on 100% what they experienced in daily life only through reading books and "visioning" things. And you are right... However, there is one ancient occult technique to get as close as possible to the "lost times". It's the conscious recreation of the life style of the "intelligence" you would like to get closer to. The more detailed and prolonged the recreation is, the closer your cognition patterns will be to the one of the past. I've done similar efforts and can say from experience, that it works. However I spent no more than few months "to the ground" and with some social windows too, which from the view of the art is at most "amateurish" "inefficient" and "lame". Yes it was quite short ritual, yet I can tell this was one of my most interesting times. And nevermind I am engaged in society with very fascinating things for me, some part of me is longing to explore again and further the psyche of the past. At least to touch it for the sleeve... It is so much more potent than drugs 💊 !!! But the way is only one, and you are on the topic - books solely are not enough. Years of "practice" must be taken as effort, if we really want to have even a piece of the picture, the real picture.

Thanks for the book, by the way, much appreciated



posted on Feb, 6 2017 @ 05:54 PM
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a reply to: Argentbenign

You have a very good book list started there and it's "fun" to add to it.


So many people read, very BADLY written books that also are full of false info.




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