Real Christ Relics expose who try to mythify him.

The peace of God to all that belong to the light,
Dear readers

Since the night of times humanity has needed to find answers to transcendental questions or solution to problems that the science of the moment is unable to solve.

That is precisely what gives sense to the unfolding of the great religious, spiritual and philosophical traditions of the world.

Now many times beyond its efficacy or beauty faith that is an essential human emotion, although very abstract, needs to have a concrete material support.

A system of ideas to explain the world looks empty when is lacking of substantial historic and concrete tangible matter.

This is the role of The Holy relics, pieces of material reality that still exist and place above any reasonable doubt the point of entering into our time space dimension figures that have leaded humanity in its search for the absolute.

Do you know how many pieces of material reality from the pass for this world of Jeshua Bar Josef, the historic Jesus Christ have arrived to our time?

Well we have quite a few:

- Mary’s robe from the night on which Jesus was born,
- Christ’s swaddling clothes, which his mother used to protect the baby,
- The cloth in which John the Baptist's head was kept after he was beheaded,
- Jesus' loin cloth which he wore on the cross,

- the Holy Sudarium at Oviedo, ysed to clean his face whe descending his corpse from the cross.

- The Holy veil of his mother Mary,

- The Holy seemles Tunic of Christ at Tiers,

- The holy Cap of Jesus at Kahors,

- The Holy coat worn by Christ at Argenteuil,

- The famous Christ Shroud at Turin, that in 2013 was finally dated to the first century.

All these precious Archaeological objects are preserved, catalogued and also enough certified by different records of their origin and way they were gradually collected.

Please check:

sites.tufts.edu...

This thread is about how to test the historicity of a major character of civilization not just from what secular or religious records say of him, but from what he once used, touched, or worn, and was used to execute him after was falsely accused of crimes he never committed.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

All of these so-called "relics" are hoaxes and fakes.

Just like the churches that push them.

originally posted by: abe froman
All of these so-called "relics" are hoaxes and fakes.

Just like the churches that push them.

This site's motto is deny ignorance. You just crushed all discussion of the subject. LMAO

I'm just here because I think "mythify" is a ridiculously fun word to say

a reply to: Shamrock6

Well,

Please don't take this as an offense but I found several times more ridiculous and moreover insane to try in late XX century or XXI century to deny the existence of a fundamental figure that practically defines the Western civilization, when institutions, Universities, Even historic Kingdoms and Empires were founded using directly or indirectly his very name to accredit them.

You can find so different political powers prevailing even today in which the heads of state take office by swearing or been annointed in his name to justify their authority, like Queen of England, or the Kings of Spain, Sweden or Netherlands, as well as the Presidents of many nations inspired in his values like the federation of Russia or The United of States.

Are you suggesting that the stability of so important part of the world has been perhaps established for centuries over a myth? That so different political regimes all agreed in to give life to a mere myth!

That is unrealistic, is Like to try to write again History, a very absurd exercise of fiction that No hatred or personal skepticism to a figure may Justify.

You can hate Jesus Christ, or his place in History, that by the way determines the beginning of our era in the Western calender, or even you can hate his mother or her place in churches history(Orthodox, Coptic, Catholic, Episcopalian) and is not going to change what is already accepted as history for centuries.

I am sorry to tell you this but also is not going to change the line written by Christopher Columbus in his diary that says he found land on October 12th of the year of the Lord of 1492.

Please check

www.bethinking.org...

www.nelsonprice.com...

To try to transform a historic Jesus Christ into a myth, that is what is to mythify him, is not to try to reduce a historic figure to a myth but the crucial foundations of an entire civilization, that by the way has developed the most advance technology ever on earth.

Yours is a reply that only can cause me to smile if not an explosion of laugh, perhaps is better to let you explain yourself better.

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: abe froman

That is not established, it is a common attack from people that usually hate either Christ himself, like the modern atheist fundamentalists, or the ones that hate the connection of Christ with religious organizations that are linked with him through an Apostolic tradition of centuries.

Now, some of these Relics thst perhaps for you are "so called" but for very serious institutions are pretty authentic, have been kept even in secular institutes like the National Habsburg museum of Austria at Vienna that preserves the Spear of destinity used to confirm the death of Jesus, and there is well documented records of its past.

Please check

www.crystalinks.com...

en.m.wikipedia.org...

or the Savoy palaces in Italy that kept the Shroud before King Vitorio Emanuel II donated it to the Cathedral of Turin.

There is another garment of Christ that was brought centuries ago to Russia, from the Caucasus. Yes, because the same right that you or anybody else has to be allowed to change clothes periodically also Jesus had, why he must be wearing along all his life the same one?

That sacred robe was later divided for relugious piety purposes in three pieces that today are stored in three Orthodox Cathedrals at Moscow, St Petersburg and Kiev.

Please check:

www.pravmir.com...

Please try to separate well established objective History from the personal universe of opinions you have created to make you feel comfortable with reality.

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: abe froman
All of these so-called "relics" are hoaxes and fakes.

Just like the churches that push them.

Prove it, especially PROVE not suggest but PROVE if you can and you know you can not prove it that the Shroud is fake.

It is real.

But come on let's see YOUR proof, YOUR undeniable and irrefutable proof.

a reply to: The angel of light

Brother, I beg you to research and come out of her.



CATHOLIC TRADITION - Call priests father, e.g., Father McKinley.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Forbidding the priesthood to marry.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is a doctrine of devils to forbid God's people to marry.

1) It is a doctrine of devils to forbid God's people to marry.

1 Timothy
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, GIVING HEED TO seducing spirits, and DOCTRINES OF DEVILS;
4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
4:3 FORBIDDING TO MARRY, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2) Peter was married (remember the pope is supposedly continuing the apostolic line through Peter).

Matthew
8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

Mark
1:30 But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her.

Luke
4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.

3) Paul, a great apostle, remained single; however he made it very clear that he could marry if he wanted to.

1 Corinthians
9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus. She remained a perpetual virgin.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - After Mary delivered our precious Lord Jesus Christ into the world, Joseph did know his wife. Joseph and Mary indeed had children together, plenty of them. They were the Lord's half brothers and sisters for their father was Joseph and mother was Mary.

Matthew 1:24-25 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not TILL she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Matthew
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Mark
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the queen of heaven.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Worshipping the queen of heaven (which is not the Mary of the Bible) is worshipping another god and it provokes the Lord to anger.

Jeremiah
7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the mother of God.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary is the mother of the earthly Jesus, not God. God has no mother--the Bible teaches us that God is from everlasting and that there was no God before him. Mary is not the mother of God. Jesus was God before he was born on this earth (see John 1:1, 14). When he came to redeem mankind, he took on a body and was made in the likeness of sinful flesh so that he could taste death for every man (ref. Hebrews 2:9). He lived a perfect life and died for our sins. The Lord Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh. Isaiah 9:6 reveals that the Lord Jesus Christ is the mighty God and the everlasting Father--he had no beginning. The Lord Jesus Christ existed as God before Mary was ever born--she is not the mother of God.

Isaiah
43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. [There was no God formed before God. Mary is not the mother of God.]

Micah
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler [Jesus] in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Philippians
2:6 Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Pope called Holy Father.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - The term "Holy Father" is only found one time in the entire Bible. It was when Jesus prayed before he and his disciples went to the garden of Gethsemane. He referred to God the Father as Holy Father. It is blasphemy to call a man by God's name.

John
17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images. Pope bows to statues of Mary, Catholics worship the eucharist and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them.

Exodus
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God...

[Note: Exodus 20:4-5 is the second of the ten commandments found in Exodus 20. Roman Catholics often learn the ten commandments, not straight from the Bible but from another source like a poster or a workbook. This Roman Catholic "traditional way of enumerating the ten commandments" ACTUALLY TAKES AWAY THE SECOND COMMANDMENT!!!!! CLICK HERE FOR PROOF! Another article can be found at this link, "The Roman Catholic Catechism (ISBN 0-385-47967-0) not only takes away the second commandment in its 'A Traditional Catechetical Formula', it also justifies the use of images/idols/icons"]

originally posted by: The angel of light
The peace of God to all that belong to the light,
Dear readers

Since the night of times humanity has needed to find answers to transcendental questions or solution to problems that the science of the moment is unable to solve.

That is precisely what gives sense to the unfolding of the great religious, spiritual and philosophical traditions of the world.

Now many times beyond its efficacy or beauty faith that is an essential human emotion, although very abstract, needs to have a concrete material support.

A system of ideas to explain the world looks empty when is lacking of substantial historic and concrete tangible matter.

This is the role of The Holy relics, pieces of material reality that still exist and place above any reasonable doubt the point of entering into our time space dimension figures that have leaded humanity in its search for the absolute.

Do you know how many pieces of material reality from the pass for this world of Jeshua Bar Josef, the historic Jesus Christ have arrived to our time?

Well we have quite a few:

- Mary’s robe from the night on which Jesus was born,
- Christ’s swaddling clothes, which his mother used to protect the baby,
- The cloth in which John the Baptist's head was kept after he was beheaded,
- Jesus' loin cloth which he wore on the cross,

- the Holy Sudarium at Oviedo, ysed to clean his face whe descending his corpse from the cross.

- The Holy veil of his mother Mary,

- The Holy seemles Tunic of Christ at Tiers,

- The holy Cap of Jesus at Kahors,

- The Holy coat worn by Christ at Argenteuil,

- The famous Christ Shroud at Turin, that in 2013 was finally dated to the first century.

All these precious Archaeological objects are preserved, catalogued and also enough certified by different records of their origin and way they were gradually collected.

Please check:

sites.tufts.edu...

This thread is about how to test the historicity of a major character of civilization not just from what secular or religious records say if him, but from what he once used, touched, or worn.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

None of these items have been verified of their authenticity, nor could they be ever be verified. There are 1000's of items that people claim are holy relics and multiples of each. The truth is that there is very much at stake and false claims abound. Not to mention a monetary value ascribed to any item thought to be legitimate. This has brought about countless forgeries. So many, that it would be impossible to distinguish a real relic from a cleverly crafted fake.

a reply to: The angel of light

CATHOLIC TRADITION - The mass. Through transubstantiation, the wafer/host and the wine supposedly become the actual blood and body of Jesus Christ when the priest prays over them. He is supposed to be sacrificed over and over again on Roman Catholic altars.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus died once for sins, never to be repeated. He sits on the right hand of God and does not reappear in the mass as a mass of blood and flesh.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us::
9:25 NOR YET THAT HE SHOULD OFFER HIMSELF OFTEN, as the high priest entereth
into the holy place every year with blood of others;
9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: BUT NOW ONCE IN THE END OF THE WORLD HATH HE APPEARED TO PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF.
9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
9:28 So Christ was ONCE offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews
10:12 But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

John
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

1 Corinthians
11:24 And when he [Jesus] had given thanks, he brake it [bread], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come (not for the forgiveness of sins or to receive Jesus).

The Lord Jesus Christ suffered on the cross; he is no longer suffering and he is most certainly not what Roman Catholicism calls "The Victim" that is sacrificed over and over again in the blasphemous Roman Catholic mass performed by the Roman Catholic priesthood. The Mass is Blasphemy and Heresy.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - The church is founded on Peter.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. Peter was a man like you and me. Jesus called Peter "Satan" in Matthew 16:23 when Peter rebuked Jesus dying. When Cornelius tried to worship Peter, Peter responded, "Stand up; I myself also am a man." (Acts 10:26). The pope needs to remember Acts 10:26 when he has men bowing to him and kissing his hand like he is worthy of worship.

1 Corinthians
3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Matthew
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected [Jesus], the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Confessing sins to a priest. Petitioning saints and Mary.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - We are to confess our sins and needs to God alone.

I John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy
2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus [not Mary, not saints, not priests, not the pope];

I John 2:1, ...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

In the Lord's Prayer found in Matthew chapter 6, we are told to ask God to forgive us of our debts. Our Father in heaven is the one that forgives us.

There is no place here for a pope living in a luxurious palace exercising supreme authority over God's church. THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF HIS OWN CHURCH (THERE IS NO VICAR, NO SUBSTITUTE, AND NO REPLACEMENT FOR HIM--ANYONE ELSE CLAIMING TO BE HIM OR TO BE "ANOTHER CHRIST" IS AN IMPOSTOR AND AN ANTICHRIST. "Anti" is a prefix meaning, "against", "opposite" or "opposed to", "contrary", or "IN PLACE OF" (ref. Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

The antichrist can DENY that the Lord Jesus Christ himself is the head of his own church and
the antichrist can ACT LIKE HE IS TAKING THE PLACE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST--like being his so-called vicar--which thing cannot be done--regardless of what lies and tales men tell. The scripture cannot be broken (reference John 10:35)--there is no "pope" in the Bible, but there is an antichrist (yea many antichrists, reference I John 2:18) that deny that Jesus is the Christ.

THE MAN CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF IS THE HEAD OF HIS OWN CHURCH.

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS NOT "THE VICTIM".

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN FROM THE DEAD AND HE IS THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS--
HE EVER LIVETH TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR HIS PEOPLE (reference Hebrews 7:25)--AND HE IS COMING BACK AGAIN.

BELIEVE IN HIM (NOT SOME IMPOSTOR) AND WALK IN HIM.

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS IN THIS WORLD AND IT IS NOT THROUGH THE BLASPHEMOUS ROMAN CATHOLIC MASS. HE IS IN HIS PEOPLE. HE COMES IN US WHEN WE REPENT OF OUR SINS AND RECEIVE HIM BY BELIEVING IN HIM--IN HIS DEATH, HIS BURIAL, AND HIS RESURRECTION.

There are supposed holy relics all over Europe, too many to believe they are real.

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: abe froman

That is not estsblished, is a common attack from people that usually hate either Christ himself, like the modern atheist fundamentalists, or the ones that hate the connection of Christ with religious organizations that are linked with him through an Apostolic tradition of centuries.

Now, some of these Relics hsve been kept even in secular institutes like the National museum of Austria that preserves the destinity Speer used to confirm the death of Jesus, or the Savoy palaces in Italy that kept the Shroud before King Vitorio Emanuel II donated it to the Cathedral of Turin.

There is another garment of Christ that was brought to Russis. Where was divided in three pieces that today are stored in three Orthodox Cathedrals at Moscow, St Petersburg and Kiev.

The Angel of Lightness

Why must we hate christ if we simply are skeptical of the authenticity of your claims? We couldn't possibly be decent human beings if we disagree with you right? This is the clearest tale of a dogmatic fundementalist. You believe that everything brought before you that bolsters your beliefs must be true, and anyone who disagrees must be an evil and cruel miscreant.

Service To Self s.t.s believers in nothing will struggle with your presention.
Nice share
Perhaps ANU reality shall be drawn for them... By our FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN...

originally posted by: The angel of light
Now, some of these Relics hsve been kept even in secular institutes like the National museum of Austria that preserves the destinity Speer used to confirm the death of Jesus,

Funny that, the "speer" is also kept at:-

The Holy Lance in Rome is preserved beneath the dome of Saint Peter's Basilica

Echmiadzin
The Holy Lance in Echmiadzin
A Holy Lance is conserved in Vagharshapat (previously known as Echmiadzin), the religious capital of Armenia. It was previously held in the monastery of Geghard. The first source that mentions it is a text Holy Relics of Our Lord Jesus Christ, in a thirteenth-century Armenian manuscript. According to this text, the spear which pierced Jesus was to have been brought to Armenia by the Apostle Thaddeus.

During the June 1098 Siege of Antioch, a poor monk named Peter Bartholomew reported that he had a vision in which St. Andrew told him that the Holy Lance was buried in the Church of St. Peter in Antioch. After much digging in the cathedral, Peter apparently discovered a lance.

originally posted by: LABTECH767

originally posted by: abe froman
All of these so-called "relics" are hoaxes and fakes.

Just like the churches that push them.

Prove it, especially PROVE not suggest but PROVE if you can and you know you can not prove it that the Shroud is fake.

It is real.

But come on let's see YOUR proof, YOUR undeniable and irrefutable proof.

It is literally impossible to prove a negative. I'm sure you have heard this a million times, which begs the question, why does it keep being brought up as if the skeptic has the burden to prove and the maker of the claim has no obligation to prove what they say? Shall i accuse you of murder and lay the obligation to prove you are not, on your shoulders?

a reply to: The angel of light

HE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS OUR FAITHFUL LORD AND SAVIOUR HELPING US TO SERVE HIM THROUGH THIS LIFE
AND THEN RECEIVING US TO LIVE WITH HIM FOREVER WHEN WE DIE.

Colossians 2:6 AS YE HAVE THEREFORE RECEIVED CHRIST JESUS THE LORD, SO WALK YE IN HIM:

Colossians 2:7 ROOTED AND BUILT UP IN HIM, AND STABLISHED IN THE FAITH, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Colossians 2:8 BEWARE LEST ANY MAN SPOIL YOU through philosophy and vain deceit, AFTER THE TRADITION OF MEN, after the rudiments of the world, AND NOT AFTER CHRIST.

Colossians 2:9 FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY.

Colossians 2:10 AND YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, WHICH IS THE HEAD OF ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER:

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Colossians 2:18 LET NO MAN BEGUILE YOU OF YOUR REWARD in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, INTRUDING into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Colossians 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 6

Christ is not present in this world through the mass and a cracker idol in a monstrance, HE IS IN HIS PEOPLE WHO RECEIVE HIM BY FAITH, BELIEVING IN HIM AND HEARKENING TO HIS WORD IN THE BIBLE. THE MYSTERY IS "CHRIST IN YOU" THE HOPE OF GLORY--OUR LORD LIVES INSIDE OF HIS PEOPLE.

Colossians 1:26 Even THE MYSTERY which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of THIS MYSTERY among the Gentiles; WHICH IS CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY:

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

John 1:12 But AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, EVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME:

We receive Christ when we REPENT of our sins (including false worship) and BELIEVE in him. He comes to live inside of us and makes his abode in us. We read his word and he helps us to understand it and obey it. CHRIST IN US, IN THIS MANNER, IS THE HOPE OF GLORY. ANY OTHER GOSPEL MESSAGE (e.g., sacraments, mass, etc.) IS A FALSE GOSPEL AND OFFERS NO HOPE OF GLORY.

There is no place in the scriptures that details a "pope" telling everybody what to do through speeches, edicts, laws, decretals, and decrees--and at whose words men must bow down and submit. That is what the Gentiles do. The kingdom of God does not operate like that.

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

Mark 10:43 BUT SO SHALL IT NOT BE AMONG YOU: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

Mark 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Some of those relics may very well be authentic. But the fact is people have been selling "pieces of the cross" for a couple thousand years now and if you put them together you'd have dozens of crosses. People are gullible, and when you put religion in the mix they are more so. The 'historicity' of these things is not in the best of shape, but for people who really believe this stuff, it shouldn't matter. Surely a piece of ancient cloth isn't the one thing that convinces you to believe where you wouldn't have before. They're kind of beside the point.

Snarl and Abe foreman this is not only for you but it may as well be.

Crushed is subjective, those that CHOOSE to BELIEVE otherwise will deny it and those that choose to believe NEED no proof.

The Agnostic on the other hand sit's on the wall and does not decide but see's both side's making there claim's but neither convincing him or her, oddly enough it is sometimes easier to convince an atheist of the existence of God than it is to convince an Agnostic that God is real as the Atheist has a polarized psychology which like a Religious Deist denies all that does not match there BELIEF were the Agnostic neither believes nor disbelieves and so has an almost always not convinced state of mind, the Agnostic by the way is the more philosophical and actually also the more scientific.

The Atheist just like the Deist is a Believer, there religion's or rather belief systems are however opposed totally.

The latter twentieth century and the twenty first century have seen a growth in this new fashionable religion as sheep listen to there peer's and do not want to be at odd's with there peer's so simply believe as they do and of course Atheist doctrine is the current fashion trend in the west.

I by the way am a Christian and a lapsed catholic, my personal belief is the Turin Shroud is real, the other relic's I know very little about so can not comment on them.

And by the way Jesus was a real historical figure.

Angel of Light is actually trying to help you, showing you a glimmer in the self imposed darkness of your ego driven atheist belief system but in truth My Jesus once said "I shall forgive them what they do not know" so maybe it would be better to leave you thick, still he did say to go and preach the good news to all the world, NOT I must say as the church has done it since the time of Constantine often wrongly and at the end of a sword which is at odd's with the Christian belief system itself and against Christian commandment's but as the many truly Christian martyr's have done it in pacifist way's, helping, healing and educating so much of the world that you atheist's would simply have left dwelling in utter darkness because after all what would have been your motivation for putting your lives on the line and going among dangerous cannibalistic savages to try to show them a better way, there is not one is there so I put it to you that Atheism is inherently a destructive belief system.

It is truly a shame you simply so many do not understand, I can stomach and even tolerate an Agnostic as there is much to be said in favour of there way of thinking, after all Doubting Thomas but an Atheist in Christ's own words is a fool.

How do you exist, even if you are an accident of chemical symbiosis that somehow ignored all the law's of conservation of energy and leaped out of your primordial puddle then how does the puddle exist, were did the very universe itself come from, is it infinite or finite, if it is finite how did it simply not self annihilate and if it is infinite than surely according to the simplest law of statistic's then all possibility's must become probability's eh.

Sorry I am assuming you even think on these matter's but hell I better go back to aping woody woodpecker at least I can get my beak into that tree.
www.bethinking.org...
www.probe.org...

a reply to: The angel of light

There is no place in the kingdom of God and our Lord Jesus Christ for endless dynasties of popes and Jesuit "generals" wielding spiritual and temporal authority (whether that power is revealed to everybody's eyes or wielded behind the scenes).

No room for ostentatious palaces, a Swiss guard, mystics and contemplative prayer/spirituality, extravagance, the triple crown, purgatory, fancy robes, popes calling for "Crusades" and "Inquisitions", confessing sins to a supposed alter Christus (there is no substitute for the man Christ Jesus), "penance", interfacing with kings and presidents and prime ministers exchanging ambassadors, etc., occupying seats in the United Nations and at tables signing concordats and treaties and making deals.

In the Bible, there is no room for statues and idols and for calling for a World Bank and running a "Bank of the Holy Spirit" or a "Bank of Rome." There is no room in the Bible for advancing pope-made social doctrine like "the common good".

There is no room for "holy" water, confessionals, masses, pontifices, statue idols called "saints", nuns, Inquisitions, indulgences, Grand Inquisitors, relics, political clout and deals and red masses for the Supreme Court of the United States of America, etc.

There is no room for these things in the kingdom of God, but in the kingdom of God there is room (yea, a requirement) FOR BEING BORN AGAIN; not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, BY THE WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth for ever. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

To be in the kingdom of God, we must repent of our sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ--that he died for our sins, was buried, and rose from the dead on the third day. And we must obey his word (the Authorized (King James) Version). As we obey his word, we find that our desires begin to change-- our very affections change--and we begin to see things properly, through God's word.

www.jesus-is-lord.com...

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: LABTECH767

originally posted by: abe froman
All of these so-called "relics" are hoaxes and fakes.

Just like the churches that push them.

Prove it, especially PROVE not suggest but PROVE if you can and you know you can not prove it that the Shroud is fake.

It is real.

But come on let's see YOUR proof, YOUR undeniable and irrefutable proof.

It is literally impossible to prove a negative. I'm sure you have heard this a million times, which begs the question, why does it keep being brought up as if the skeptic has the burden to prove and the maker of the claim has no obligation to prove what they say? Shall i accuse you of murder and lay the obligation to prove you are not, on your shoulders?

Thank you for YOUR reply but your point is moot, let me explain they are not sceptic's they are atheist's, an agnostic is a sceptic?.
Now I can quantify that any number of way's but in Abe Forman's case he made an absolute statement of what he assumes to be irrefutable fact, it is not irrefutable fact so my argument was highlight this error in his point (or what I perceive as an error).

The other reason I was annoyed is that I know that Abe Foreman is actually a very intelligent poster but has reduced himself to the level of a heckler so in way my comment was almost a chiding remark back.

Now yes I have another motive which is my belief in Jesus, like your avatar he was a wood carver, he once healed a man whom had been born blind but he gave the man perfect sight and so he saw people as Tree's walking, Jesus a Carpenter and people as tree's walking, now there are many whom drew analogy with the Greek pagan religion and Zeus supposedly making people from tree's and yes there most certainly was a lot of cultural cross over at that time with may Jew's living in Greece and very many Greek Convert's to Judaism but to finish the story Jesus then took some of the sight back, just enough and the man could then only see people as people.