F-35s at Red Flag

a reply to: 410Cougar

All three of those are actually quite difficult to go against WVR. They're small, which makes them hard to see. They're light, which makes them responsive to being thrown around. And they're energy efficient.

I was assuming most of the engagements would of ended while still BVR. Did the ROE require WVR for this exercise?

a reply to: 410Cougar


All Red Flags have an extensive WVR section.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: 410Cougar

All three of those are actually quite difficult to go against WVR. They're small, which makes them hard to see. They're light, which makes them responsive to being thrown around. And they're energy efficient.

Isnt it odd that the F-35 was downed by one of these barly 4th generation jets, when the F-35 was also supported by a F-22?

On paper non of these jets the F-35 flew against should have a chanse in hell when it comes to BVR simulation. Not when you have a F-35 With the latest radars and sensor against a much weaker apponent With much older radars and sensors.

Why not fly the F-35 against the New Block F-16s, F-15s and F-18s. Or against a F-35? And than brag about KD ratio. Because than you at leat know that the F-35 can put up against Your fornt line fighter jets who are at least 4+ fighters.


EDIT:

THe New Block F-16 With its New radar and sensors would probably have the same KD ration in a BVR senario against these old farts.

a reply to: spy66

So what does that say about the F-22, that was shot down twice by T-38s?

It's absolutely mind boggling watching the mental gymnastics to bash the F-35. The F-22 goes 8-0 against 4th Gen fighters, in a straightforward basic air to air fight, and it's the most amazing fighter ever built.

The F-35, that everyone says sucks at air to air, goes 15:1, in one of the most brutal exercises in years, that in a single battle saw over 50 Red Air fighters, with their regenerations, and it sucks because it lost to a 4th Gen flown by some of the best pilots out there.

I don't care what it was against, a 15:1 kill ratio is great. If this was anything but the F-35, people would be saying how good it was. But since it was the F-35, then there are all kinds of denigrating comments about it.

a reply to: Zaphod58


Well a 15:1 is all good and fine for any jet fighter.


Its just that this seams to be staged to look good for the F-35. F-16V could preform the same KD as the F-35 did against the same targets. Or any jet fighter With a more improved radar capability than its apponents.


WHat its tels is that you dont really need the F-35 to preform against barly 4 generation fighters. What we need to see is how the F-35 can preform against a fornt line fighter not a trainer.



People might not like that i mention this but its a fact. AT least for me. I would like to see how the F-35 manages to take on 15 F-16V's .

a reply to: spy66

F-16V could preform the same KD as the F-35 did against the same targets. Or any jet fighter With a more improved radar capability than its apponents.

Why? This seems unlikely. To start, the F-16V doesn't have the avionics or stealth.

originally posted by: C0bzz
a reply to: spy66

F-16V could preform the same KD as the F-35 did against the same targets. Or any jet fighter With a more improved radar capability than its apponents.

Why? This seems unlikely. To start, the F-16V doesn't have the avionics or stealth.

No but it has the latest radar. And against these old and out dated and barely 4th generation fighter the F-16Vs would own the sky in BVR mode.

The F-35 was not tested against stealth Aircrafts.

a reply to: spy66

It's not a fact by any stretch of the imagination. You act like anything can be an amazing fighter, simply by upgrading the avionics, when that's not even close to the truth.

An F-16V will have a good kill ratio, but that doesn't mean it can even come close to what the F-35 can do.

What this tells us is that against incredible odds the F-35 still survives and gets kills. Put an F-22 in the same scenario, and they have had losses too. Guess that means they suck too, right? Oh wait, the rules are totally different for the F-35 than for any other plane in history.

Red Flag is one of the hardest scenarios around, and those aggressor aircraft you keep denigrating have shot down every type of fighter used in the exercise.

a reply to: spy66

Ok, sure they would. The F-16V is still an F-16. Just because it has a cool new radar doesn't suddenly make it an aerial assassin.

Even a Block 10 F-16 can be brought up to the V standard. But that somehow makes it the deadliest aircraft around?

Military Officials Testify at House Subcommittee Hearing on F-35 Program



Start at 55:18

F-35A had 145 air to air kills. 7 losses, all WVR.

a reply to: spy66

No other country has fielded any 5th generation aircraft other than the United States. F-35 pilots will therefore not be training to fly against 5th generation aircraft.

a reply to: spy66

I would like to see how the F-35 manages to take on 15 F-16V's .

One would think if that scenario ever arises someone has screwed up big time .

a reply to: hutch622

The only really major difference between an F-16 at Red Flag and a V is the radar, and EW suite. Putting an AESA in helps, but it's still radar against an aircraft designed not to be seen on radar. The Red Flag that just ended was extremely heavy on EW and integrated defenses and they still cleaned up.

a reply to: Zaphod58

It's not a fact by any stretch of the imagination. You act like anything can be an amazing fighter, when that's not even close to the truth.

Well we dont know the truth based on this. When the F-35 challanged these old trainers. On paper these old trainers didnt stand a chance in a BVR senario to begin with.

An F-16V will have a good kill ratio, but that doesn't mean it can even come close to what the F-35 can do.

Well, right now all we can say is that the F-35 is very good against old 4th generation fighter jets who can barly see.

a reply to: spy66

Old trainers. Ok, sure. You should bother reading more than "L-159" and stopping there. The main threat by Red Air was the F-16, flown by the 64th Aggressor Squadron. It includes the SCU-8 and HMIT upgrade. They were back stopped by A-4s,which make great aggressors, and your "old trainers".

They also operated in a heavy EW, integrated defense area during their fights. And still had 145 kills.

a reply to: C0bzz

No other country has fielded any 5th generation aircraft other than the United States. F-35 pilots will therefore not be training to fly against 5th generation aircraft.

We in Norway are going to replace Our F-16s With the F-35. And we have Russia on Our boarder. And they have 4++ fighters and will Field 5 generation fighter jets.

So what you are telling me is that Our pilots will not be training to fly against 5 generation fighter air crafts like the PAKFA?

What about 4++ fielded jets, will we ever test the F-35 against these Aircrafts With modern radar and sensors?

a reply to: spy66

What current fifth generation threat is flying, in an operational capacity, that requires the F-35 to immediately test and train against?

This is their FIRST large force exercise. It's not the be all, end all, that's it no more training.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I sometimes wonder if some people ever read the links provided on some of these F35 threads , i know i do and lets say i am more than happy Australia has headed down the F35 path . And i am even happier that a neighbour to our north west are not getting them . I wonder if that was not part of the original deal .

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: spy66

What current fifth generation threat is flying, in an operational capacity, that requires the F-35 to immediately test and train against?

This is their FIRST large force exercise. It's not the be all, end all, that's it no more training.

No, that is correct. The F-35 still have a way to go before i give my confidence of its superior capability.

And i also think i have the right to be sceptical about the F-35 without being judged.

More on Redflag and the F-35:
- 207 of 226 planned sorties flown
- None cancelled for maintenance
- Maintained >90% mission capable rate
- All 19 cancelled sorties caused by weather affecting all aircraft

F-35A has not reached block 3F yet - it's still limited to 7 G, limited loadout, and limited avionics.

a reply to: spy66

Russia has not fielded 5th generation fighters yet.

Over time, yes the F-35A will train against different threats, as those threats change.

F-35A at exercises has flown against the F-15E with upgraded radar.