Penalty for ABORTION.

I believe the soul enters the human body at birth

I think this is currently outside the realm of human knowledge, both in terms of whether there is a soul and, if so, when it arrives. As such, it makes abortion a very tricky problem.

The result is that, ideally, abortion law should be based on information we actually have.

I don't think taxpayers should be responsible for funding abortions, as that goes against their beliefs and their votes.

I do think women should have access to safe clinical procedures as opposed to using a coat hanger.

Enacting penalties for abortions seems insane to me, it's totally against liberty, even if it seems reprehensible to some (many?).

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I am not a christian so all the bible quotations mean nothing to me. However, I am pro life. I have moderated that with the fact I don't know the mother's mind or the circumstances so who am I to judge.

That said, it appears Planned Parenthood is nothing but an abortion mill. They don't do mammograms, they send you to someone who does. Per a thread today, they don't give sonograms to mothers who chose to keep their baby (apparently the planned part is only for relieving yourself of the consequences of unprotected sex). Otherwise it is handing out preventive measures.

Their money comes from selling baby parts. And after looking into much of the lately introduced information, it needs to go.

How anyone can decide when life begins is beyond me. The heartbeat? the nervous system? What?

And a viable child should never be aborted. 5-6 months it is absolutely murder.

I am in agreement with funding to local OBGYN's who can care for the mother regardless the choice.

My rant. I don't usually speak to this subject. Someone close to me has had an abortion.

There's an EASY fix to this problem....
Starting tomorrow... sterilize ALL male citizens (of ALL ages) in the US of A.... No woman, as far as I know, has faced an unwanted pregnancy without at least one male involved....

And if I may.... (slightly Off Topic)
Why are there so many Pro-Lifers also Pro-Death Penalty?
Isn't the Death Penalty just an EXTREMLY late term abortion?

originally posted by: GeauxHomeYoureDrunk
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Most women who make the hard decision to have an abortion punish themselves for the rest of their lives. They don't need the government to do it for them. Years down the road when they look lovingly upon their later children they think back to the child that was never born and what they would then be doing and they grieve. That grief follows them as long as they live. That is worse than any penalty the government could ever put upon them. Christ would show them compassion, so where is ours?

Well said...and thank you for understanding the grief these women may feel. Many who are against abortion , are against it because of what they have experienced .

a reply to: liveandlearn

Per a thread today, they don't give sonograms to mothers who chose to keep their baby (apparently the planned part is only for relieving yourself of the consequences of unprotected sex).

Wrong! I took my daughter for one there as it was the cheapest place we could have it done as I was paying cash for it. Got our first look and pictures of my grandchild there- and they were well aware of the fact that she was wanted and was not going to be aborted!

originally posted by: BlueAjah
That is as bad as putting your 2 year old in a closet and not feeding him just because you don't care and have better things to do.

I respectfully disagree. A 12-week fetus, for example, does not have the capacity to understand such a torture.

In a way a fetus is in a very tiny closet. And as far as their nutrition goes...that depends on both the mother's nutrition and her body's ability to transfer nutrition....

...like so many weird and moral (or not) judgment calls.

Not the same.

Again, I disagree with that comparison.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Regarding your reference to Exodus 21:22, I would not be so sure of the presented interpretation to mean "if it miscarries with no harm done" to mean no harm to the woman.

I interpret it to mean that if it forces an early birth and the child is OK, then a simple fine is in order.

If you quote the whole text is says -

But if there is harm,then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Which, conveniently you didn't quote.

And here is the whole scripture, which is quoted different than the one in the OP.

“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

I don't think it's smart to convince yourself that you are 100% sure the bible condones abortion. People justify abortion because they feel the guilt that it causes, so anything to make it seem OK.

a reply to: BobbyRock

I am not pro death for anyone regardless the crime. The time you spend in life is a time to learn and contemplate.

The only problem I have with abortion is that people are not having enough of them.

a reply to: GeauxHomeYoureDrunk

As I said 'per a thread today'. I didn't check it out. It may differ by locality.

But kudo's to your daughter. Best wishes for her.

a reply to: liveandlearn

I didn't say that all were, I said so many....
I read (sorry forgot the address to that page) that of those who were Pro-Life when it comes to abortion, only 11% were against the death penalty.

Also I think it would be so wrong to penalize a raped woman (or worse - an under aged girl) for wanting to have an abortion....

a reply to: Wookiep

You're running into a grammar issue in Exodus 21:22. The woman is the focus, not the fetus. The Bible doesn't condone abortion. It simply teaches that the breath of life is imputed by God at birth. David referred to his own fetus as a golem, which is a soulless vessel. In Hebrew lore, golems were kinda like zombies...no souls.

originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

This is a judgment for "god" to make..

I don't think anyone can tell another person what to do with thier body..

But an autonomous human being (with distinctly different DNA) is not their body...

a reply to: BobbyRock

I understood what you said. I was just making it clear how I felt about the subject. A life is here to grow and learn regardless the mistakes. This is how learning takes place.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Your scripture is in the OP is vastly different than mine.

Here's what I got.

“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

The OP manipulated and added words that weren't there to push a pro-choice agenda. Again, not a smart thing to do IMO.

EDITED: "The OP"

a reply to: Wookiep

The author of that "article" is me. Its not an article, its a post from another ATS thread (its linked in the OP). My source for the scriptural citation was the NASB 1977. Most translations get that verse wrong because its a taboo topic. Again, its a grammar issue, not a political issue. In Exodus 21:22, the NASB 1977 translators actually went by grammar and not by politics.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I am absolutely astounded when I see christians preaching hate
We were all created by the same God, He gave us all free will, the capacity to choose.

The penalty for abortion should be unconditional love as Jesus taught christians to offer into this world.
Not hate speech, judgement and condemnation, I pity you and any human who believes you stand with Christ

I am afraid there is little Christ in you, Jesus wasnt a dictator but you are being one in His name?
Its their choice, God gave them a choice.

Using Old Testament, Jewish law to condemn others and you call yourself a christian
Believer Priest do you know you are not a Jew, not under the law?

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I am absolutely astounded when I see christians preaching hate
We were all created by the same God, He gave us all free will, the capacity to choose.

The penalty for abortion should be unconditional love as Jesus taught christians to offer into this world.
Not hate speech, judgement and condemnation, I pity you and any human who believes you stand with Christ

I am afraid there is little Christ in you, Jesus wasnt a dictator but you are being one in His name?
Its their choice, God gave them a choice.

Using Old Testament, Jewish law to condemn others and you call yourself a christian
Believer Priest do you know you are not a Jew, not under the law?

Whoa. Wait a minute. Who am I condemning exactly?

I spent half of the OP stating that I am pro-choice. So what condemnation or judgment am I passing? How exactly am I acting like a dictator? I didn't even suggest that abortion should be penalized.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Wookiep

The author of that "article" is me. Its not an article, its a post from another ATS thread (its linked in the OP). My source for the scriptural citation was the NASB 1977. Most translations get that verse wrong because its a taboo topic. Again, its a grammar issue, not a political issue. In Exodus 21:22, the NASB 1977 translators actually went by grammar and not by politics.

Well, I don't think it's quite fair to assume most translations get it wrong due to "taboo".

Regardless, let's say there is a chance the interpretation is in your favor, let's say a 70% possibility of it being correct, and mine 30%.

Don't you think it would be wise to recognize that there's still a possibility that you are wrong, to avoid the potential for condoning murder, rather than chalk it up to justifying something potentially very evil?

Even if we were to approach this from a non-biblical perspective and perhaps one of a slightly agnostic approach. Human beings are equipped with a conscience, and within said conscience, is ingrained a moral code that exists within (most) of humanity. When we do bad things, we naturally experience guilt.

It it widely known that abortions cause extreme guilt, so with that said, wouldn't that alone be enough to understand that there is something very wrong with abortion?

You, however, being someone who apparently adheres to biblical references don't even need that other approach to be explained. There's no way you know even within the biblical realm with 100% certainty that God is an advocate for abortion. So why not take the safer route, and realize the potential for actual murder.

Short of asking the Author of Exodus, Moses, in person what he meant, you will never know for sure. For me it's common sense, for others, it's something else.

Religious fundamentalism is bs. You can keep your religious laws off me. I dont do christian sharia anymore than ill do muslim sharia.

If republicans start enacting religious based laws, youd better believe there is going to be a problem.