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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
it's all very well to spout off figures like that (and they may well be right) but he has to back it up with evidence.
- Well in fairness Gareth he does say he is using the same source as Howard, doesn't he?
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
If the figures are true it would certainly surprise me, and it gives a different perspective of the general impression we get from the media in general.
- It would hardly be the first time that a sizeable section of the UK media persues it's own political agenda rather than state the bald figures now would it?
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
i myself was the victim of a crime about a year ago, from a young girl of eastern european decent - i think romanian.
- But come on Gareth, you're surely not going to write off all Romanians as criminal types now are you? Michael Howard would hardly like that!
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
i feel this article is not tackling the real issues and is squabbling about petty details in the hope of discrediting the conservatives. so sorry sminkey, i dont agree with your assessment of this being "an excellent article".
- You are free to hold your opinions but how do those opinions stand in the light of a slightly different side to the tale (officially sourced now for you too)?
Surely if the stats show Howard & Co are manipulating this part of the immigration story it does bring to light something beyond mere spabbling and the petty?
Is it not justifiable to discredit the tories for such a superficial alarmist reading of the stats?
Originally posted by gareth_24
Firstly can i say that i am not taking the tory side on this one! (needed to point that out just in case you were thinking i was!).
ive reread the article, and cant see where he actually said that (maybe im going crazy! if its there please quote where he actually says that!)
the way the article is written it does seem to be saying "look the tories have got it all wrong, this is not really a problem at all". when clearly there is a big problem with immigration and asylum issues.
also you have no response to the issue i raised about the insinuation that some of the right-wing media is racist.....wonder what you make of that?
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Surely it is implicit in his comments -
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- I think there is a perceived problem within a section of British society (and has been for years), whether that equates to a more general actual problem I doubt very much myself.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- When it comes to the line certain UK papers prefer to take I think some knowingly walk a very fine line.
I have to say that yes I have certainly seen selectivity from papers like The Daily Mail, The Telegraph, The Express and The Sun so slanted and so biased on matters of race that I would consider them to have been racist on occassion.
Originally posted by gareth_24
implicit? it doesnt STATE that he is using the same figures, he can IMPLY all he likes, but he could quite easily be using figures sourced elsewhere. ive taught myself to question everything said by journalists especially if i believe they may have an agenda!!!
ok well as i said earlier, everyone's political views are moulded by their own experiences - maybe if you lived elsewhere in the country you would feel differently and vice versa with myself.
well i cant believe youve brought The Sun into an intelligent political debate!!! as for the other papers, well i read the telegraph reasonably regularly, and often believe it speaks sense - i feel this paper does often "tell it like it is" and echo the opinions of many
certainly their recent campaign to give homeowners the right to defend their own homes against burglars was an excellent one, for example.
i actually think that they do a better job of representing a sensible right wing agenda than the conservatives do.....
but whether right or wrong - my point was, for a good piece of journalism, you cannot make points like that without backing them up!
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I can find figures for a circulation of just under a million...
So well under a million sold when the population is approx 60million isn't impressing me too much.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Wow, I thought it was a typically populist, short-sighted and very badly thought out little 'band-wagon', hitching a ride on the indefensible actions of weirdo Tony Martin who thought it was perfectly ok to shoot a youth in the back as he ran away.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
The fact that almost no-one is ever charged 'protecting their property' seemed to have passed them completely
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Fear of crime sells newspapers (they even admit it themselves) so that is what they are about, claims about social responsibility etc are just so much nonsense for the gullible IMO.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
But lets not kid ourselves here, there is really only one source for these figures. No-one else but the Home Office is collating or can collate these stats at each point of entry and with each claim for residence or asylum. There may be a few periphal ststa available from airlines or ferry companies but the bulk of this is done once and by officials.
Originally posted by gareth_24
most people read the sun and suchlike, and unfortunately this is where most people's poltical views lie!!! but, and this is unsubstantiated, i feel that more people in britain have right wing tendancies towards things like common sense and ant-PC policies. the telegraph, whatever else, stands up for these things, IMO, without being racist.
maybe he shouldnt have shot at them
my parents have had theyre property attacked many times and trust me, i'd love to see a little "right-wing" justice for the perpatrators.
what tony martin did was wrong, i can sympathise with him.
admittedly, its not that common
but the fact that ANYONE is charged with protecting their property is ludicrous. and most peoples perception is that they cant.
quite possibly it does, but this is because the public, in general, agree with the fact that crime is out of control in many parts of the UK.
journalists can get their sources from anywhere, as im sure you know.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Funnily enough so have mine; and yes it would, seemingly, be nice to get hold of a few of the little f*ckers and beat seven shades out of them. Cos we imagine that would 'solve' the problem.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- I had symapthy right up until he got out his unlawful gun and shot to death a youth running away from him.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Sorry but I think there should be a facility for dealing with those psychos who are incapable of controlling themselves and who go waaaaay to far.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- I don't agree with your conclusion. I think it's more like the public have been 'trained' into an acceptance of this all-pervading 'threat'. It's quite perverted and unhealthy.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
The thing is that it was the tory party and their mates in the press who went to town with this and even when crime fell under their gov they found they couldn't get people to stop believing crime was down!
Originally posted by gareth_24
sometimes it seems as if violence is the best course of action. this is why it is harsh to punish those who protect their own homes, because in the spur of the moment people can be irrational when under threat.
but as i said people can act irrationally when theyre homes and property are under threat.
and i will never shed a tear for the kid who died.
agreed. but defining "way to far" needed to be done. to an extent it now has been (whether or not thats related to the sunday telegraph campaign - i dont know)
as ive said to you before, our opinions are moulded by our experiences and backgrounds. my perception is that crime and anti-social behaviour is escalating alarmingly
do you use public transport at all sminky? im guessing you dont, because this is where you really get to see the problems with our next generation. spitting, swearing, vandalism, smashed windows, shouting, pushing, verbal abuse, smoking (not just cigarettes) even p*ssing on theback seats. ive seen it all.
instead of assuming people are dummies and brainwashed into everything
what ive just described is not unique to me
and im my experiences are very minute compared to others - for example, ive never been on the end of a serious crime.
IMO, this issue shouldnt be politicised.
but for what its worth i think that the tories would be better at punishing offenders (and rightly so) but still nobody has the guts to tackle the root causes.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Just because something seems the thing to do on the spur of the moment is hardly much justification in itself, is it?
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- I agree, it's just that most of us on't go out and get a shotgun saw it off and load it to use it on anyone we imagine shouldn't be there. The possibilities for accident (as happens in the US) are enormous and horrendous.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Aha! Something you would credit this gov as having done then, hmm?
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
It's, to an extent, life.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
.....and it doesn't mean society is collapsing either.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- OK. That's one way of looking at it.
Another (IMO more plausible way considering the infrequency of serious crime) is that, thankfully, most have no experience of serious crime either, too.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- As I've said before persuing ever harsher punishment is not only IMO usually ineffective but a waste of resources ultimately.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I'd go for a Euro system in a heatbeat over the repressive US-type 'model' any day.
Originally posted by gareth_24
well that doesnt mean we should accept it.
but the amount of violent crimes are rising
and i honestly cant see of any government policy that is going to stop this, infact while the leniancy continues - it will only get worse.
the punishment has to fit the crime. not like a guy in swansea who killed an iraqi because of his race while out at night, and got jailed for 4 years (this sentence was given last week). he'll be out in 2.