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India freaks out

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posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 09:18 PM
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originally posted by: Pandaram
BTW.. i take this opportunity to mention . E- mail invented by someone from my country, Tamil Nadu.
Until then caucasian americans were posting letters via somthing called mail services.


Total nonsense. Are you referring to the scammer Shiva Ayyadurai? Ray Tomlinson (1972) is the inventor of email. MIT's CTSS host based time sharing system in 1965 was the beginning of email. Email predates ARPANet. Shiva has led a campaign to cover his (disproved) claim he invented address based online communications. Coining the term 'email' certainly does NOT make you the inventor. And shame on him for attempting to take credit for something he did not create. He has campaigned to cover his lies, even going as far as creating a inventorofemail domain name to try to discredit the original developers. It's pretty common knowledge that this guy is a charlatan who has put a lot of effort into back pedaling his original claims. He got busted.
Ref:www.sigcis.org...
edit on 1-2-2017 by BillN because: Updated dates and added reference




posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 09:25 PM
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originally posted by: Tempter
I'm the enterprise architect for a Fortune 50 company which just so happens to be a bell weather for the global economy. Yes, we're THAT large and YES, I'm the one in charge of architecting the global IT infrastructure for this behemoth.

I've been in IT for 16 years and what I can tell you is: Indians are just as capable of learning IT as any other person who is also technically inclined. Some are better than American workers, most are not.

What I've learned is that most of the workers from India are complete liars. They falsify their resumes (I've hired several teams ONSITE in India) to get hired and when it comes time to do the work they require the training they claim to have earned already through experience. Now, not ALL mind you, but if I told you the turnover rate for the teams we use in India you'd roll with laughter, then cry.

Besides this many have a hard time "Americanizing" their accents and language. This creates unneeded inefficiencies and slows performance.

This year we've made a concerted effort to fire several teams in India and are working now to rebuild yet another. I'm tired of it. When I bring this up to the program directors, I'm reminded how important things like "follow the sun" support models are, as if things like 2nd shifts don't exist.

Now, before you think I'm anti-Indian, let me explain something to you: I am, at least as far as outsourcing IT to them. It doesn't work.

My best friends are Indians and we hang out every week.

Besides, have you BEEN to India lately? Jesus H, Hyderabad is practically like a US city now in terms of amenities and jobs. US corporations are all over the place. Many don't even have to TRY to find a job overseas as support because there are so many local jobs now in places like Mumbai, Hyderabad and Carela.

I dunno, I'd like to see US citizens fill these jobs. I'm for a restriction on their visa's immediately. At least bring it down to a normal level.
This. Precisely.



posted on Feb, 2 2017 @ 03:34 AM
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lol, funny to see Americans here claiming Most Indians are not as good as Americans. Indian Americans along with the Chinese are the richest community in the US. Infact we have American companies recruiting in India and emigrating them into the US. SO anyone who claims Most Indians are not as good as Americans is talking Bull...

Instead of blaming the immigrants for taking your jobs, it is your duty to make your children more competent in the world market. Constantly blaming everyone else except your self makes you no difference than an SJW or an Islamist who finds it to painful to look at his own shortcomings...


edit on 2-2-2017 by maddy21 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 2 2017 @ 10:18 AM
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originally posted by: maddy21
Instead of blaming the immigrants for taking your jobs, it is your duty to make your children more competent in the world market. Constantly blaming everyone else except your self makes you no difference than an SJW or an Islamist who finds it to painful to look at his own shortcomings...


That's my thoughts on the matter. If someone is willing to do your job for half the wage, it means you need to be twice as productive. You can't rely on protectionism either because these are global products, in the end regardless of who works where you're still competing with each other and eventually an American will work for half the wage instead. I hate the idea of falling back on the saying "learn some skills" because the people who say that are most often the least skilled, with the most dubious actual skills, but it's sort of true here. In competitive industries, what was considered going above and beyond is now the minimum effort needed. If you can't compete, the problem doesn't lie with the person who has worked harder or the person who will settle for less. It lies with you not having enough obvious value.



posted on Feb, 2 2017 @ 10:30 AM
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Before Nasdaq crash , i was remunerated in excess of £85K as a SeniorSoftware Engineer within 1 year I was replaced by an Engineer in india that would accept £14K for the position .

I decided that i should go back to bio-nano tech at that point in my life.

Indians are ok .



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 08:15 AM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: maddy21
Instead of blaming the immigrants for taking your jobs, it is your duty to make your children more competent in the world market. Constantly blaming everyone else except your self makes you no difference than an SJW or an Islamist who finds it to painful to look at his own shortcomings...


That's my thoughts on the matter. If someone is willing to do your job for half the wage, it means you need to be twice as productive. You can't rely on protectionism either because these are global products, in the end regardless of who works where you're still competing with each other and eventually an American will work for half the wage instead. I hate the idea of falling back on the saying "learn some skills" because the people who say that are most often the least skilled, with the most dubious actual skills, but it's sort of true here. In competitive industries, what was considered going above and beyond is now the minimum effort needed. If you can't compete, the problem doesn't lie with the person who has worked harder or the person who will settle for less. It lies with you not having enough obvious value.



Incorrect, many Asian immigrants on average earn a lot more than the average white American. The perception that Indians or Asians earn less or are payed less for a job is just an excuse usually made by folks to hide the inability of their own people. "get payed less", "settle for less" , "White Americans really work harder" are just silly excuses. In fact Hindus are the Richest community in the US. It time Trump supporters stopped acting like SJW's and accept their own faults. Its just sad that other people "esp immigrants" have to be put down like this.

I am not against Trumps decision to restrict H1B visas as it is often misused heavily, but lets stop this gross generalization...
edit on 3-2-2017 by maddy21 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:03 AM
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a reply to: maddy21

If you compare average to average, then you're likely right, but that's because Asians for the most part take education more seriously while fewer white Americans do, bringing down the average.

The jobs that are going to H1-B's are competitive positions, either put in the work to compete or accept that you're not going to get it.

I think it says a lot about the quality of student we have in the US when 80% of new computer science graduates end up unemployed, or employed outside their field when there's 7 computer science jobs open for every new graduate we produce. It's not the universities fault either, they're teaching what they should be teaching.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 07:47 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan

This sounds suspiciously like you are suggesting either Americans aren't as skilled as the H1Bs or they should update their skills to be competitive?



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 09:12 PM
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originally posted by: BillN
a reply to: Aazadan

This sounds suspiciously like you are suggesting either Americans aren't as skilled as the H1Bs or they should update their skills to be competitive?


It's a mix of factor. India has a lot of people, and they have a lot of students in tech industries. They have more honors students than we have students total. Their best of the best come over here and completely outnumber our entire industry. That said, this alone isn't the only problem... if there were there wouldn't be any problem at all because there are so many of these jobs available that most could find work.

The other issue is bigger which is that the average student (speaking for software here, I don't have much knowledge on the hardware side of things) learns things like a specific technology or language. But the industry moves fast and that knowledge becomes outdated. On top of that, there are A LOT of approaches taken when teaching CS. Some teach Java, some teach Python, some C++, some teach all, some might teach you entirely in .NET. Graduates need to be flexible though and pick up whatever technology a business needs. The field is EXTREMELY broad, and it all gets housed under the same degree. This results in a situation where the average student doesn't have the right boxes to check for a company, and the poor state of hiring practices for the industry results in someone getting turned away.

I really can't overstate how screwed up our hiring practices are for tech jobs on the software side. The guy who created NodeJS is on paper only qualified for about 1/3 of the jobs using Node because he doesn't have long enough experience with the technology to meet the time the company is looking for. Angular is the same way. Outside of web technology where things move fast (but a little slower) it's not much different. I was filling out an internship application a few days ago where the company in question wanted me to have 3 apps published with the technology they're working in... for an undergrad senior internship. For another internship (which I didn't get) they wanted a trial product estimated to take 140 hours worth of work... just to pass the bar to get to the first of a three stage interview process. It's utterly ridiculous and it's part of why so many CS majors are dying of thirst while floating in a sea of available jobs.

I don't know what the colleges can do about it either. As near as I can tell, having 4 degree's and a lot of time in school, and some time in industry... they're teaching what they should be teaching. It's a field though that takes a considerable amount of self study beyond your classes in order to remain relevant and many students just don't do that. That's why our bottom 80% of graduates struggle and get replaced by the A students from other countries.

It doesn't help much that we have the whole bootcamp industry springing up either. I won't repeat my thoughts on them again (but I do hope to hear some business evaluations of them), but I have little tolerance in life for people who embellish their credentials. I see bootcamp grads as doing that, and I see some of these recent accelerated certificate programs as doing the same. For example, there's this guy I know, he went to school for a year for a basic programming cert (not a degree), alongside an ethical hacking cert. How now calls himself a Dual Majored Computer Science graduate. In his case, he actually fooled a company into hiring him... but again this comes down to the poor state of industry hiring processes, and I think the hiring process is where all of the flaws are ultimately going to be fixed (or not).



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:01 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: maddy21
Instead of blaming the immigrants for taking your jobs, it is your duty to make your children more competent in the world market. Constantly blaming everyone else except your self makes you no difference than an SJW or an Islamist who finds it to painful to look at his own shortcomings...


If someone is willing to do your job for half the wage, it means you need to be twice as productive. .


no it means they can afford to do the job for half the price because their cost of living is half the cost. their family are back in india and they can live like kings at half the cost whwn they get back to indua.

americans cant compete with that because their cost of living is twice as high and their family are here in the us.

their is rampant abuse with the h1 visa program by corporations to get cheap labor like Disney as of recent.


edit on 03228America/ChicagoFri, 03 Feb 2017 22:03:23 -0600000000p2842 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 09:15 AM
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originally posted by: interupt42
no it means they can afford to do the job for half the price because their cost of living is half the cost.


Then make yourself worth the extra cost.



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 12:54 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: interupt42
no it means they can afford to do the job for half the price because their cost of living is half the cost.


Then make yourself worth the extra cost.

Oh Ok, LOL.

You have never owned a business , been in charge of hiring , or involved with the bottom line have you.

Those American Disney Employees were worth the extra cost . However, Disney had the American employees sign NDA and coerced them to TRAIN their supposed superior outsourced replacements or they would lose all their severance package.

Everybody is replaceable from entry level engineers to the CEO, so that argument is BS. Plus why Should Americans have to do twice the work in America versus a Foreigner to compete?

So how about we make the playing field fair versus allowing American Companies to lie and cheat by manipulating the market and worker pool for their own pockets , while getting tax breaks and American incentives at the cost of screwing the Americans public over.

The H1 Visa programs has rampant abuse and its at the expense of the American economy and public and needs to be addressed.


edit on 04228America/ChicagoSat, 04 Feb 2017 13:04:02 -0600000000p2842 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 04:38 PM
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originally posted by: interupt42
Those American Disney Employees were worth the extra cost . However, Disney had the American employees sign NDA and coerced them to TRAIN their supposed superior outsourced replacements or they would lose all their severance package.


I'm not so sure they were. I've read many stories on this issue and from the sounds of it they were a bunch of low level overqualified employees. The story I've seen published most, was that of a guy with 10 years experience but still in a low level position. If you've been working an entry level position for 10 years, to the point where you're drawing twice the salary as everyone else, and you haven't moved up, you're probably not competitive in your position.



Everybody is replaceable from entry level engineers to the CEO, so that argument is BS. Plus why Should Americans have to do twice the work in America versus a Foreigner to compete?


Because it's called free market competition. It's not the best system there is, but it's the one the majority of our country religiously devotes themselves to. Except for in those times where they lose out. Competition is designed to create losers, if you want globally competitive businesses it means accepting that you're going to lose at times.


So how about we make the playing field fair versus allowing American Companies to lie and cheat by manipulating the market and worker pool for their own pockets , while getting tax breaks and American incentives at the cost of screwing the Americans public over.


Competition isn't supposed to be a fair playing field. The whole point of competing is to make things unlevel and secure yourself an advantage.



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 05:31 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan




I'm not so sure they were

They were because part of their severance package required them to train their replacement.





Because it's called free market competition


But we don't have a free market we have a controlled manipulated market by the big players.
I have seen how it operates internally .They have unwritten agreements with competitors to not take each other employees within a certain level to keep costs down., I know this because they tried to do it to me.




Competition isn't supposed to be a fair playing field. The whole point of competing is to make things unlevel and secure yourself an advantage.

well than what is the problem and enjoy that 30-40% fee/tax when your company tries to hire cheaper foreign labor.





edit on 33228America/ChicagoSat, 04 Feb 2017 17:33:47 -0600000000p2842 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 05:41 PM
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originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Aazadan




I'm not so sure they were

They were because part of their severance package required them to train their replacement.





Because it's called free market competition


But we don't have a free market we have a controlled manipulated market by the big players.
I have seen how it operates internally .They have unwritten agreements with competitors to not take each other employees within a certain level to keep costs down., I know this because they tried to do it to me.




Competition isn't supposed to be a fair playing field. The whole point of competing is to make things unlevel and secure yourself an advantage.

well than what is the problem and enjoy that 30-40% fee/tax when your company tries to hire cheaper foreign labor.





edit on 4-2-2017 by Throes because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 07:02 PM
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originally posted by: interupt42
They were because part of their severance package required them to train their replacement.


What does this have to do with anything? I admit that it's like pouring salt in the wound, but other than being a jerk move by Disney, what's actually wrong with it? Plenty of companies do it. Plenty of companies do much worse. It's part of the economic system we choose to do business in.



But we don't have a free market we have a controlled manipulated market by the big players.
I have seen how it operates internally .They have unwritten agreements with competitors to not take each other employees within a certain level to keep costs down., I know this because they tried to do it to me.


That's just another part of the game. Your employers job in the market is to get as much work, of the highest quality possible that they can. Your job is to get the highest wage/quality of life for your work that you can. If employers have non poach agreements and you feel it negatively impacts you... go work elsewhere.

Unlike most fields where it's an employers market and I genuinely do sympathize with people who don't have the freedom in job selection to simply work elsewhere, we have so many tech jobs available right now that the market favors the workers so the usual problems aren't an issue.



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 10:41 PM
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originally posted by: interupt42
well than what is the problem and enjoy that 30-40% fee/tax when your company tries to hire cheaper foreign labor.


Sorry, missed this part and it was too late to edit it in. You can't really discount yourself like that, just the same as if you see a product in a store that's heavily discounted and you suspect there's something wrong with it companies think the same way with heavily discounted labor.

If you price yourself too low, such as in H1-B range, companies are going to look at you and think somethings wrong. You have to compete on quality. The top X% of foreign workers come over, that means you need to be as good as that top X%.



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 06:36 AM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: interupt42
well than what is the problem and enjoy that 30-40% fee/tax when your company tries to hire cheaper foreign labor.


Sorry, missed this part and it was too late to edit it in. You can't really discount yourself like that, just the same as if you see a product in a store that's heavily discounted and you suspect there's something wrong with it companies think the same way with heavily discounted labor.

If you price yourself too low, such as in H1-B range, companies are going to look at you and think somethings wrong. You have to compete on quality. The top X% of foreign workers come over, that means you need to be as good as that top X%.

You're get what you pay for, and that's universal. You can't have low cost and quality at the same time.



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 01:48 PM
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originally posted by: BillN
You're get what you pay for, and that's universal. You can't have low cost and quality at the same time.


You're not going to beat them on cost, nor do you want to. You can compete over quality for that dollar though which involves striking a balance between knowledge and not overqualifying yourself for the position. If you're overqualified, costs will be cut and someone "appropriate to the position" will be brought in. In the case of the Disney workers, the ones who have spoken up were overqualified working entry level positions with mid to high level skills.

It's all a game, hitting that sweet spot where the employer is convinced they're getting all the skills they need and that they can't do with less. That means being above what they're looking for, but not too far above.

Like I said in the thread on this subject that I authored, I think the problem in the industry more often than not comes down to the companies. Most tech jobs in the US are actually at non tech companies, and at those companies you rarely have a technical manager. This results in companies knowing they need a certain job title, but the managers themselves not really being competent enough in the field to know what they need. Disney falls into this category btw. Partially because few understand the field, and partially because the field is so new there aren't really good employee metrics to categorize people and measure who/what you need so companies themselves often times make poor choices. This results in interviews that are far from standardized. A company that needs stronger talent might conducts easier interviews as a result.
edit on 5-2-2017 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2017 @ 07:54 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: BillN
You're get what you pay for, and that's universal. You can't have low cost and quality at the same time.


You're not going to beat them on cost, nor do you want to. You can compete over quality for that dollar though which involves striking a balance between knowledge and not overqualifying yourself for the position. If you're overqualified, costs will be cut and someone "appropriate to the position" will be brought in. In the case of the Disney workers, the ones who have spoken up were overqualified working entry level positions with mid to high level skills.

It's all a game, hitting that sweet spot where the employer is convinced they're getting all the skills they need and that they can't do with less. That means being above what they're looking for, but not too far above.

Like I said in the thread on this subject that I authored, I think the problem in the industry more often than not comes down to the companies.. snip, to save space


You're spending an awful lot of time trying to rationalize the efficacy of wage arbitration. Nobody *wants* to 'beat them' on cost. The replaced workers arent overqualified, youre blaming the victim. Its cheaper labor, nothing more. As the pay rate falls, so does the quality.

This is about fraud and corruption, and exploiting the visa program. Thats why this is happening. The 20 million dollar US indictment involving the visa for sale scheme? Infosys recruiters told not to hire US workers? False degrees, resumes and work experience? Infosys fined 40 million for B2 visa fraud? The list goes on. And on. And on.

There are federal regulations protecting American workers, so attempting to attribute it to overqualified workers or corporations gaming the system is irrelevant. Specifically title 8, section 1182, paragraph ii - 'and available at the time of application for a visa and admission to the United States and at the place where the alien is to perform such skilled or unskilled labor, and (II) the employment of such alien will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of workers in the United States similarly employed.' It's on the books and it's illegal. It just isn't being enforced.

There isn't a STEM shortage as NASSCOM has been peddling and the H1B program doesn't create jobs. And the field isn't new. The IT sector has been around for more than 30 years.

This is why India is in a panic, because the game is finally up and they have positioned themselves to depend on gaming the system. Indias 'IT industry' is a facade. Its all service providers, not software companies. It's going to leave a huge hole in the financial system and the bodyshop stocks are falling already.
edit on 5-2-2017 by BillN because: Added paragraphs



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