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India freaks out

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posted on Jan, 31 2017 @ 07:30 PM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
Pure BS. There's tons of code on Github developed by caucasian Americans. Are you saying Americans are not just as good as Indians? It sounds to me you are biased.


There are good caucasian Americans, yes.

But, there are 1.3 BILLION Indians.

So, naturally, there's going to be more Indians with good IT skills than Caucasian Americans.

Besides, if you go to any American University, you'll see the Caucasian students studying "Art", "Music", "Journalism", "Film", "Political Science", "Law", "Sociology", "Psychology", etc...but in India there's IIT, they all study only IT subjects.

So, the fewer Caucasians are spread thin across a wide spectrum of fields, but the Indians all want to be technologists.

So, it's no accident that Indians are the preferred choice for IT jobs.

There's more to chose from.

Lots, and Lots, of talent there.

Try to find a Caucasian American to do the job, you'll end up searching for years.


edit on 31-1-2017 by AMPTAH because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 31 2017 @ 07:49 PM
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I'm the enterprise architect for a Fortune 50 company which just so happens to be a bell weather for the global economy. Yes, we're THAT large and YES, I'm the one in charge of architecting the global IT infrastructure for this behemoth.

I've been in IT for 16 years and what I can tell you is: Indians are just as capable of learning IT as any other person who is also technically inclined. Some are better than American workers, most are not.

What I've learned is that most of the workers from India are complete liars. They falsify their resumes (I've hired several teams ONSITE in India) to get hired and when it comes time to do the work they require the training they claim to have earned already through experience. Now, not ALL mind you, but if I told you the turnover rate for the teams we use in India you'd roll with laughter, then cry.

Besides this many have a hard time "Americanizing" their accents and language. This creates unneeded inefficiencies and slows performance.

This year we've made a concerted effort to fire several teams in India and are working now to rebuild yet another. I'm tired of it. When I bring this up to the program directors, I'm reminded how important things like "follow the sun" support models are, as if things like 2nd shifts don't exist.

Now, before you think I'm anti-Indian, let me explain something to you: I am, at least as far as outsourcing IT to them. It doesn't work.

My best friends are Indians and we hang out every week.

Besides, have you BEEN to India lately? Jesus H, Hyderabad is practically like a US city now in terms of amenities and jobs. US corporations are all over the place. Many don't even have to TRY to find a job overseas as support because there are so many local jobs now in places like Mumbai, Hyderabad and Carela.

I dunno, I'd like to see US citizens fill these jobs. I'm for a restriction on their visa's immediately. At least bring it down to a normal level.



posted on Jan, 31 2017 @ 07:50 PM
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originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: dfnj2015
Pure BS. There's tons of code on Github developed by caucasian Americans. Are you saying Americans are not just as good as Indians? It sounds to me you are biased.


There are good caucasian Americans, yes.

But, there are 1.3 BILLION Indians.

So, naturally, there's going to be more Indians with good IT skills than Caucasian Americans.

Besides, if you go to any American University, you'll see the Caucasian students studying "Art", "Music", "Journalism", "Film", "Political Science", "Law", "Sociology", "Psychology", etc...but in India there's IIT, they all study only IT subjects.

So, the fewer Caucasians are spread thin across a wide spectrum of fields, but the Indians all want to be technologists.

So, it's no accident that Indians are the preferred choice for IT jobs.

There's more to chose from.

Lots, and Lots, of talent there.

Try to find a Caucasian American to do the job, you'll end up searching for years.



Studies suggest otherwise

www.cio.com...
edit on 31-1-2017 by Throes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 31 2017 @ 07:54 PM
link   

originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: dfnj2015
Pure BS. There's tons of code on Github developed by caucasian Americans. Are you saying Americans are not just as good as Indians? It sounds to me you are biased.


There are good caucasian Americans, yes.

But, there are 1.3 BILLION Indians.

So, naturally, there's going to be more Indians with good IT skills than Caucasian Americans.

Besides, if you go to any American University, you'll see the Caucasian students studying "Art", "Music", "Journalism", "Film", "Political Science", "Law", "Sociology", "Psychology", etc...but in India there's IIT, they all study only IT subjects.

So, the fewer Caucasians are spread thin across a wide spectrum of fields, but the Indians all want to be technologists.

So, it's no accident that Indians are the preferred choice for IT jobs.

There's more to chose from.

Lots, and Lots, of talent there.

Try to find a Caucasian American to do the job, you'll end up searching for years.



Spoken like someone who doesn't understand anything.

The reason we bring them over here is mostly due to the fact they have English skills and will work for less, period. Sure some get ahead. Most don't accelerate to top positions.

And besides, the experience on the resumes are horsecrap. I can't count how many fake universities I've had to snuff out on Indian resumes.



posted on Jan, 31 2017 @ 08:01 PM
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originally posted by: Tempter
I'm the enterprise architect for a Fortune 50 company which just so happens to be a bell weather for the global economy. Yes, we're THAT large and YES, I'm the one in charge of architecting the global IT infrastructure for this behemoth.

I've been in IT for 16 years and what I can tell you is: Indians are just as capable of learning IT as any other person who is also technically inclined. Some are better than American workers, most are not.

What I've learned is that most of the workers from India are complete liars. They falsify their resumes (I've hired several teams ONSITE in India) to get hired and when it comes time to do the work they require the training they claim to have earned already through experience. Now, not ALL mind you, but if I told you the turnover rate for the teams we use in India you'd roll with laughter, then cry.

Besides this many have a hard time "Americanizing" their accents and language. This creates unneeded inefficiencies and slows performance.

This year we've made a concerted effort to fire several teams in India and are working now to rebuild yet another. I'm tired of it. When I bring this up to the program directors, I'm reminded how important things like "follow the sun" support models are, as if things like 2nd shifts don't exist.

Now, before you think I'm anti-Indian, let me explain something to you: I am, at least as far as outsourcing IT to them. It doesn't work.

My best friends are Indians and we hang out every week.

Besides, have you BEEN to India lately? Jesus H, Hyderabad is practically like a US city now in terms of amenities and jobs. US corporations are all over the place. Many don't even have to TRY to find a job overseas as support because there are so many local jobs now in places like Mumbai, Hyderabad and Carela.

I dunno, I'd like to see US citizens fill these jobs. I'm for a restriction on their visa's immediately. At least bring it down to a normal level.


Outsourcing anything to them doesn't work. Cultural is miles a part. We bastardized our language, it can't be properly taught anyhow.

They are liars, but anyone who has ever been there knows that the cast system dictates they lie so they have a shot. Once there in some cases they perform well, some don't, much like the US.

For context, everyone we hired had a BA, yet 70℅ didn't have running water.

What I saw the made NYC slums appear like the legendary Atlantis. While staying at a 5 star while showering, head down mouth closed. Word to the wise, don't eat the eggs.


edit on 31-1-2017 by Rosinitiate because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 31 2017 @ 08:04 PM
link   

originally posted by: Tempter
I'm the enterprise architect for a Fortune 50 company which just so happens to be a bell weather for the global economy. Yes, we're THAT large and YES, I'm the one in charge of architecting the global IT infrastructure for this behemoth.

I've been in IT for 16 years and what I can tell you is: Indians are just as capable of learning IT as any other person who is also technically inclined. Some are better than American workers, most are not.

What I've learned is that most of the workers from India are complete liars. They falsify their resumes (I've hired several teams ONSITE in India) to get hired and when it comes time to do the work they require the training they claim to have earned already through experience. Now, not ALL mind you, but if I told you the turnover rate for the teams we use in India you'd roll with laughter, then cry.

Besides this many have a hard time "Americanizing" their accents and language. This creates unneeded inefficiencies and slows performance.

This year we've made a concerted effort to fire several teams in India and are working now to rebuild yet another. I'm tired of it. When I bring this up to the program directors, I'm reminded how important things like "follow the sun" support models are, as if things like 2nd shifts don't exist.

Now, before you think I'm anti-Indian, let me explain something to you: I am, at least as far as outsourcing IT to them. It doesn't work.

My best friends are Indians and we hang out every week.

Besides, have you BEEN to India lately? Jesus H, Hyderabad is practically like a US city now in terms of amenities and jobs. US corporations are all over the place. Many don't even have to TRY to find a job overseas as support because there are so many local jobs now in places like Mumbai, Hyderabad and Carela.

I dunno, I'd like to see US citizens fill these jobs. I'm for a restriction on their visa's immediately. At least bring it down to a normal level.


Sounds like my experience working besides Indian integration contractors side by side. Six months in I was proficient enough that they let go of 5 contractors with 2 full time employees who only learned the particular system 6 months prior.

All the work was held to the chest so we had to dig and document everything before we can take control of the system.
edit on 31-1-2017 by Throes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 31 2017 @ 08:12 PM
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originally posted by: Rosinitiate

originally posted by: Tempter
I'm the enterprise architect for a Fortune 50 company which just so happens to be a bell weather for the global economy. Yes, we're THAT large and YES, I'm the one in charge of architecting the global IT infrastructure for this behemoth.

I've been in IT for 16 years and what I can tell you is: Indians are just as capable of learning IT as any other person who is also technically inclined. Some are better than American workers, most are not.

What I've learned is that most of the workers from India are complete liars. They falsify their resumes (I've hired several teams ONSITE in India) to get hired and when it comes time to do the work they require the training they claim to have earned already through experience. Now, not ALL mind you, but if I told you the turnover rate for the teams we use in India you'd roll with laughter, then cry.

Besides this many have a hard time "Americanizing" their accents and language. This creates unneeded inefficiencies and slows performance.

This year we've made a concerted effort to fire several teams in India and are working now to rebuild yet another. I'm tired of it. When I bring this up to the program directors, I'm reminded how important things like "follow the sun" support models are, as if things like 2nd shifts don't exist.

Now, before you think I'm anti-Indian, let me explain something to you: I am, at least as far as outsourcing IT to them. It doesn't work.

My best friends are Indians and we hang out every week.

Besides, have you BEEN to India lately? Jesus H, Hyderabad is practically like a US city now in terms of amenities and jobs. US corporations are all over the place. Many don't even have to TRY to find a job overseas as support because there are so many local jobs now in places like Mumbai, Hyderabad and Carela.

I dunno, I'd like to see US citizens fill these jobs. I'm for a restriction on their visa's immediately. At least bring it down to a normal level.


Outsourcing anything to them doesn't work. Cultural is miles a part. We bastardized our language, it can't be properly taught anyhow.

They are liars, but anyone who has ever been there knows that the cast system dictates they lie so they have a shot. Once there in some cases they perform well, some don't, much like the US.

For context, everyone we hired had a BA, yet 70℅ didn't have running water.

What I saw the made NYC slums appear like the legendary Atlantis. While staying at a 5 star while showering, head down mouth closed. Word to the wise, don't eat the eggs.



Spent 3 weeks in China performing IT transformation recently. Have you ever heard of gutter oil? Gross!



posted on Jan, 31 2017 @ 09:21 PM
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originally posted by: Tempter

Spoken like someone who doesn't understand anything.

The reason we bring them over here is mostly due to the fact they have English skills and will work for less, period. Sure some get ahead. Most don't accelerate to top positions.

And besides, the experience on the resumes are horsecrap. I can't count how many fake universities I've had to snuff out on Indian resumes.


Well, I don't know where you get your pool of Indians from. But, from a nation of 1.3 BILLION, you can certainly find all types there. Your selection says more about you, than about what's available, and on offer.


What you attract to your particular business, depends on what you pay them, and what it is you do.

But, your idea that they will work for less, so you bring them over, doesn't make sense. Because, as any business knows, it costs more in the end, to have cheap but unqualified labor.

No smart business will get less qualified labor, just to save a buck. It's not a value proposition. It is possible that the Americans are "over qualified" for the particular positions. But, the corporations are in the business of making money. And increasing profit margins is the goal. They want people to best match the job that needs to be done. No point paying an overqualified person a higher wage, to do some simple task.

Also, you don't accelerate your best labor to top positions. Unless, you're about to lose that talent to some other firm.

When a corporation brings a foreign worker in, it has a hold on that individual. The visa the person gets, allows him or her to work there, not where ever that person wants. So, unlike an American that can move easily to another firm, whom you'd have to promote to keep happy, the firm doesn't have to promote the Indian. This is another reason why firms look for foreign talent, since they don't have to accelerate the promotions for these people, to keep them on staff.

So, there are many factors involved in what you see in your work environment. Your interpretation is that they aren't good enough for promotion. But, that's not necessarily the case.

All corporations work on the Peter Principle, that people are promoted to the level of their incompetence, and then stop moving up. But, managers don't want to promote people who are doing a great job right where they are, because the next position might just be their incompetence wall. Again, easy to hold back the foreigner, who is thinking mostly about waiting until he gets that green card, and can move about freely like the American Citizens, before asking for a promotion. If you try to hold back the American, he'll jump ship, and move to another firm.


So, I don't see anything you've said in your comment, that's really objective.

I think your perspective is unique to your firm's experience.



posted on Jan, 31 2017 @ 10:38 PM
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I've been in IT for too many years- and I can tell you one thing...

you can't hire good help.
There's NO shortage of bad IT people who happen to be white middle aged guys. They're everywhere, they're terrible at their jobs, and even up here they're making nearly six figures.
I've interviewed dozens of them over the years trying to hire good help.

We don't need more IT people- we need a smarter population.



posted on Jan, 31 2017 @ 11:24 PM
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a reply to: Profusion

The fallacy of the "shortage of American workers" is a lie, a lie that was concocted by private tech companies paid lobbyist so the fat rats in congress will increase the H1 B visas, taking away jobs from American workers.

The story is so incredible irrational for me that have lived throughout the whole transition, but for the younger generation that defend this practice they actually believe it, like it's true.

No it was no shortage of workers and never have been, is about power, money, dirty rats in congress and despicable lobbyist


edit on 31-1-2017 by marg6043 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 12:44 AM
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nvm... went off-topic
edit on 1-2-2017 by Shuye because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 11:32 AM
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originally posted by: Apollumi
Internet made by the US. Your point?

What if your nation made most of the tech the world uses and you could not make a living because China, Brazil, and Canada were working for nothing for you companies? That sound good to you? What if your tax dollars paid for much of that tech development.



Then compete. Either accept a lower salary because that's the new market rate, or get good/productive enough that you're worth the money.



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 12:42 PM
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Being an Indian, I am quiet happy about this move. I have 3 friends who traveled to the US and have started startup companies there. When i called them up about this news they informed they will most likely shift their companies entirely to India. BUT US will not make such a move,....



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 12:47 PM
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originally posted by: lordcomac
I've been in IT for too many years- and I can tell you one thing...

you can't hire good help.
There's NO shortage of bad IT people who happen to be white middle aged guys. They're everywhere, they're terrible at their jobs, and even up here they're making nearly six figures.
I've interviewed dozens of them over the years trying to hire good help.

We don't need more IT people- we need a smarter population.


The problem is not that middle age white guys are not "good". It's just that people nowadays have been treated like shiite for so long they just don't care anymore. Why should any worker commit to a company with all their heart when every 15 months they get laid off. The lack of job security is stunning. Just saying the words "job security" with regards to IT job seems meaningless. We have a bad work culture in this country. Workers are tossed away.

In many cultures, the more experience engineers teach younger engineers how to remain calm and productive. I've worked with a guy once who was in his late 60s. He worked on the specification for NTSC television. We were working on a software project. But the guy was amazing. He was an absolutely incredible engineer with amazing insights into everything!
edit on 1-2-2017 by dfnj2015 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 12:49 PM
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a reply to: dfnj2015




On top of that these workers are not very good anyway. Many times the work has to be redone. That's not taken into account with the effing costs.


Being the industry for almost 20 years I can confirm this.

The issue is that they are so cheap that its worth the risk for many companies and organizations to keep outsourcing and work out the kinks.



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 12:49 PM
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originally posted by: marg6043
a reply to: Profusion

The fallacy of the "shortage of American workers" is a lie, a lie that was concocted by private tech companies paid lobbyist so the fat rats in congress will increase the H1 B visas, taking away jobs from American workers.

The story is so incredible irrational for me that have lived throughout the whole transition, but for the younger generation that defend this practice they actually believe it, like it's true.

No it was no shortage of workers and never have been, is about power, money, dirty rats in congress and despicable lobbyist



I totally agree.



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 12:53 PM
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originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: dfnj2015




On top of that these workers are not very good anyway. Many times the work has to be redone. That's not taken into account with the effing costs.


Being the industry for almost 20 years I can confirm this.

The issue is that they are so cheap that its worth the risk for many companies and organizations to keep outsourcing and work out the kinks.



I worked with this team of developers. There was this one project that nothing had been done on it for weeks. When the delivery date approached, they just shipped a previously shipped piece of software. The argument was they would just fix it when the bugs were reported against the specification.

In IT budget's I've worked on a lot of the outsourcing costs is about the same are employees. But the contractors working for the outsourcing firm make fractional wages. So I'm not sure there's even an actual cost savings for big companies.



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 12:54 PM
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originally posted by: Tempter

originally posted by: Rosinitiate

originally posted by: Tempter
I'm the enterprise architect for a Fortune 50 company which just so happens to be a bell weather for the global economy. Yes, we're THAT large and YES, I'm the one in charge of architecting the global IT infrastructure for this behemoth.

I've been in IT for 16 years and what I can tell you is: Indians are just as capable of learning IT as any other person who is also technically inclined. Some are better than American workers, most are not.

What I've learned is that most of the workers from India are complete liars. They falsify their resumes (I've hired several teams ONSITE in India) to get hired and when it comes time to do the work they require the training they claim to have earned already through experience. Now, not ALL mind you, but if I told you the turnover rate for the teams we use in India you'd roll with laughter, then cry.

Besides this many have a hard time "Americanizing" their accents and language. This creates unneeded inefficiencies and slows performance.

This year we've made a concerted effort to fire several teams in India and are working now to rebuild yet another. I'm tired of it. When I bring this up to the program directors, I'm reminded how important things like "follow the sun" support models are, as if things like 2nd shifts don't exist.

Now, before you think I'm anti-Indian, let me explain something to you: I am, at least as far as outsourcing IT to them. It doesn't work.

My best friends are Indians and we hang out every week.

Besides, have you BEEN to India lately? Jesus H, Hyderabad is practically like a US city now in terms of amenities and jobs. US corporations are all over the place. Many don't even have to TRY to find a job overseas as support because there are so many local jobs now in places like Mumbai, Hyderabad and Carela.

I dunno, I'd like to see US citizens fill these jobs. I'm for a restriction on their visa's immediately. At least bring it down to a normal level.


Outsourcing anything to them doesn't work. Cultural is miles a part. We bastardized our language, it can't be properly taught anyhow.

They are liars, but anyone who has ever been there knows that the cast system dictates they lie so they have a shot. Once there in some cases they perform well, some don't, much like the US.

For context, everyone we hired had a BA, yet 70℅ didn't have running water.

What I saw the made NYC slums appear like the legendary Atlantis. While staying at a 5 star while showering, head down mouth closed. Word to the wise, don't eat the eggs.



Spent 3 weeks in China performing IT transformation recently. Have you ever heard of gutter oil? Gross!


Lol! Google Chinese public toilets.



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 12:57 PM
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originally posted by: AMPTAH
Well, I don't know where you get your pool of Indians from. But, from a nation of 1.3 BILLION, you can certainly find all types there. Your selection says more about you, than about what's available, and on offer.


The US has 320 million people. We have 123 million full time workers. We certainly have enough workers who could do the work of any H1-B visa. This country needs these high paying jobs.



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 03:50 PM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: AMPTAH
Well, I don't know where you get your pool of Indians from. But, from a nation of 1.3 BILLION, you can certainly find all types there. Your selection says more about you, than about what's available, and on offer.


The US has 320 million people. We have 123 million full time workers. We certainly have enough workers who could do the work of any H1-B visa. This country needs these high paying jobs.


We don't though. By 2020 there's going to be 1.4 million more computer science related jobs available in the US than we have people to fill them. America literally does not produce enough workers to satisfy demand, not by a longshot.



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