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Do we really have free will? And how do you feel about God after reading this?

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posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 12:41 PM
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I'm with the OP on this one.

God is said to know the past, present and future. There is no mention in any bible or holy book of multiverses or branching of timelines based on our choices. It is written that god is omniscient - therefore any choices we make, already have been made to god, thus we only have the illusion of free will and any decision we make has already been foreseen.

Which means, we have no free will and are merely actors on a stage performing.

All of this talk about the soul knowing but the body not, has no validation in explaining this other than to justify a continued belief in something that has no logic to it.

Either we have free will, and based on our decisions unknown to god, we enter into heaven in the afterlife (or hell) OR god already knows who will enter heaven or hell and anything we do has no baring in it.

Either god knows all, as an eternal omniscient being and we are nothing more than pawns in a game, or god does not know all, and thus is not god.

And as for feeding your kid macaroni or sushi, well, if you have presented both previously, and discovered there is a preference for one over the other, you are in no way giving him a choice now, but rather offering something you already know will be preferred. Which really has little to do with the subject, as every choice we make that affects us is new to us, unless it's which way to drive to work or some other insignificant choice. These things won't get us into heaven or hell, depending where you work, that is.

Ultimately, my disbelief in this god lies in my opinion that any god willing to let his own creation suffer the sheer level of barbarity in his name for thousands of years without intervening and providing for his flock, is not a god I would ever worship. A demon plays with innocent souls, a true and all loving god would not let little children die agonising deaths never to know their potential, or allow entire generations to suffer starvation and poverty simply for being born.

And these people did not have any choice in their suffering. A sick game, if god is omnipotent yet unwilling...

tl;dr

If god is omniscient then he already knows I am going to hell for not believing in him. I had no free will, and it was preordained before my birth.
If god is not omniscient then he is not god, and I couldn't care less where I end up.

edit on 29-1-2017 by savemebarry because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 12:42 PM
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I thought Satan was running the world right now. He is the one who delivers the test of our worthiness. If you do not follow the deception that Satan is tempting us with, you gain a place in the real reality.



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 03:43 PM
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God doesn't need to see anything we do.

All he had to do was set karma/time in motion letting us decide which path to take (free will), whatever we do will be decided by karma in the end but letting us act fee in whatever path we take.. Since God is "all knowing" he would see what we do/act etc without needing to actually set foot here and doesn't need to interfere in our life's..

It's up to us.

If it wasn't then we'd have a set of rules or ruled by god's/higher beings and used as slaves (no free will).

Free will has a cost but at what end is decided by us in this lifetime.
edit on 29-1-2017 by DarkvsLight29 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 05:03 PM
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On the sixth day of creation, after God created terrestrial (Earth-based) animal life, Genesis 1:26-28 says: “[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Satan is currently usurping God’s authority in the Earth. Hence, Jesus Christ said in John 18:36: “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” Jesus’ kingdom was “not of this world” in the sense that His kingdom was one from God rather than one from Satan. The Lord Jesus’ kingdom would not originate from the evil world system that is presently operating on Earth and in the heavens.

The book of Job describes Satan’s activity in the Earth. We read in Job 1:6-7: “[6] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. [7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.” And again, we read in Job 2:1-2:

Peter 5:8, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour….” Satan is active on planet Earth, and he will especially be doing this in the future—when he is banned from outer space and confined to Earth (Revelation 12:7-10)!



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 06:04 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

What if God is a five year old Child, and we're it's experiment?



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 07:14 PM
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difficult question. my best answer...
no one has total free will. we do have a certain amount of freedom of choice. God knows how we will choose. He gives us freedom to choose, even if we choose poorly. it's possible one reason people die young/unexpected is that He knew they were headed in a real bad direction and pulled the plug. (not in ALL cases, but sometimes)
'He did not treat us as our sins deserve'. He gives us all the chance. why do some really bad people get to live to old age? He is letting them live their lives and giving them their chance.

there is no simple answer/explanation to why God does what he does / allows what He allows. that's why the righteous live by faith; we don't understand but we accept and trust Him.

I do believe that no one goes to heaven or hell accidentally or casually. I think at some point in our lives we very consciously choose to accept or reject Him.

hope this helps.



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 07:42 PM
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originally posted by: Artorias
...but to god everything is predetermined and our free will doesn't exist.

Taking this logic even further,...

Erm, no, let's stop right there and go back to testing the claim about predestination and predetermination and see whether that is what the bible is teaching or whether that is what Babylon the Great, the antichrist, parts of Christendom and their spiritual Father Satan is teaching in order to assist (setup) those who want to argue against the reality of free will and the teachings of the bible about this subject:

Is Your Future Predestined?

The Bible’s Viewpoint

Is Your Future Predestined?

Many people believe that their life and future are predestined by a higher power. They feel that from conception to death, we all follow a script already written in the mind of God. ‘After all,’ they say, ‘God is all-powerful and all-knowing, or omniscient, so surely he must know every detail about the past, the present, and the future.’

WHAT do you think? Does God foreordain our life course and ultimate destiny? In other words, is free will genuine or just an illusion? What does the Bible say?

Total or Selective Foreknowledge?

The Bible leaves us in no doubt as to God’s having foreknowledge. He knows “from the beginning the finale,” says Isaiah 46:10. He even used human secretaries to record many prophecies. (2 Peter 1:21) What is more, those prophecies always come true because God has both the wisdom and the power to fulfill them in every detail. Hence, God can not only foreknow but also foreordain events whenever he chooses to do so. However, does God foreordain the destiny of every human or even the total number who will gain salvation? Not according to the Bible.

The Bible teaches that God is selective when it comes to foreordaining the future. For example, God foretold that “a great crowd” of righteous humans would survive the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things. (Revelation 7:9, 14) Note, though, that God did not give a specific number for that great crowd. The reason? He does not predestinate individuals. God is like the loving father of a large family. He knows that at least some of His children will reciprocate His love, but He does not predetermine the number.

Compare God’s use of foreordination with the way he uses his power. As the Almighty, God has absolute power. (Psalm 91:1; Isaiah 40:26, 28) But does he use his power in an uncontrolled manner? No. For instance, he held back from acting against Babylon, an enemy of ancient Israel, until the time was right. “I kept exercising self-control,” God said. (Isaiah 42:14) The same principle applies to his use of foreknowledge and foreordination. Jehovah exercises self-control in order to respect the free will that he gave us.

God’s control of his powers does not limit him or render him imperfect. In fact, it magnifies his greatness, and it endears him to us, for it shows that his sovereignty truly is exercised not only with omniscience and power but also with love and respect for the free will of his intelligent creation.

On the other hand, if God predetermines everything, including every nasty accident and vile deed that has ever happened, could we not rightly blame him for all the misery and suffering in the world? Thus, upon closer inspection, the teaching of predestination does not honor God, but casts a pall over him. It paints him as cruel, unjust, and unloving—the very opposite of what the Bible says about him.—Deuteronomy 32:4.

The Choice Is Yours
...

Similar topics have come up before, notice the bolded part in my comment in this thread for example:
If God is all powerful he cannot be all good quote...

I know I shared the article above before in another thread, but I've gone back 15 pages and can't find the comment in this subforum, perhaps the green forum about conspiracies in religions, I may have linked some more information about how God's foreknowledge works and how it doesn't work in that comment, wish I could find it again.
edit on 29-1-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 08:06 PM
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a reply to: whereislogic



Compare God’s use of foreordination with the way he uses his power. As the Almighty, God has absolute power. (Psalm 91:1; Isaiah 40:26, 28) But does he use his power in an uncontrolled manner? No. For instance, he held back from acting against Babylon, an enemy of ancient Israel, until the time was right. “I kept exercising self-control,” God said. (Isaiah 42:14) The same principle applies to his use of foreknowledge and foreordination. Jehovah exercises self-control in order to respect the free will that he gave us.


God forbid anyone interfering with this mans freewill

en.wikipedia.org...


One of her fingernails was removed, the side of her head was smashed and the rest of her body was covered up. She[who?] had to hear from hospital staff and social workers how Lama’s rectum was torn open and that the abuser had attempted to burn it closed.


www.ibtimes.co.uk...

“I kept exercising self-control,” God said. (Isaiah 42:14)
" he held back from acting against Babylon, an enemy of ancient Israel, until the time was right "

when was the time right to act God ?
before or after the rape ?
in this case......




edit on 29-1-2017 by kibric because: boo

edit on 29-1-2017 by kibric because: boo

edit on 29-1-2017 by kibric because: boo



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 08:13 PM
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a reply to: kibric
The behaviour and acts committed by human beings that are attributed to God as somehow being his fault for not intervening has come up before as well:

God is blameless, page 4



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 08:16 PM
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a reply to: Artorias

Regardless of what you say as a mere man who is but a speck in the whole of the universe. This is what the preserved word of God has to say

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

You see that it is God's will that none should perish so we do have free choice.

What choice are you going to make?


edit on 29-1-2017 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 08:18 PM
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a reply to: whereislogic

but he would save Enoch
but not this little girl ?

if he can interfere with Sodom
why can't he interfere here ?

he interfered warning Moses
why didn't he warn this girl or surrounding relatives ?

where is the logic ?
edit on 29-1-2017 by kibric because: boo



posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 12:32 AM
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a reply to: Artorias

I personally don't think God knows everything that a human being will do before they do it, however that doesn't mean God isn't all knowing. Such as knowing what will happen, when and where, that doesn't apply to human beings.

Clearly written evidence for this is right in the book of Genesis...

Genesis 6:6

I firmly believe that human beings have free will, you see, God allowed the wrong ones into heaven once before, that won't happen again which also explains the purpose/why we are here.



posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 12:51 AM
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originally posted by: savemebarry

There is no mention in any bible or holy book of multiverses or branching of timelines based on our choices.


In Deuteronom heavens could be multiverses.

Deuteronomy 10:14
King James Bible
Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

In Corinthians speaks of a third heaven that could be related to multiverses.
2 Corinthians 12:2-10

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven

Just saying, the bible could have multiverses... according to my interpretations.




posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 12:54 AM
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a reply to: Artorias

I don't believe in SkyDaddy



posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 04:23 AM
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a reply to: kibric
See the article (and similar articles linked on that page with questions such as "Why does God allow suffering?") linked in my last comment of page 4 on that thread I linked before. There used to be a youtube video with that question in the title and the article related to that question, but I can't find it anymore. Here's the article:
Why Does God Allow Suffering? What Does the Bible Really Teach?
Of course from my impression of your way of commenting I understand (or at the very least strongly suspect) your question was rhetorical and insincere, you do not want to hear or consider possible logical reasonable answers and as soon as you are confronted with one, I suspect your mind will begin (as programmed, trained, conditioned, indoctrinated by this system of things and the spirit of the world) to look for excuses to dismiss that answer, to judge it as being unreasonable or illogical, an excuse, a cop-out, mere interpretation, opinion or imagination, in short: invalid, not satisfactory (even when it fits perfectly logically, even when someone is willing to admit to that, there's always the option of arguing that it hasn't been proven conclusively, definitively yet that this is the correct answer as to what the bible is teaching about that subject). The bible explains this behaviour and way of reasoning or arguing as well...a text I've used before on either the 2 linked threads in my 2 previous comments here or both.

Proverbs 18:2
A stupid person takes no pleasure in understanding;
He would rather disclose what is in his heart.



...
Understanding must be based on knowledge, and it works with knowledge, though it is itself more than mere knowledge. The extent and worth of one’s understanding is measurably affected by the quantity and quality of one’s knowledge. Knowledge is acquaintance with facts, and the greatest and most fundamental facts relate to God, his existence, his invincible purpose, his ways. Understanding enables the person to relate the knowledge he acquires to God’s purpose and standards, and thereby he can assess or evaluate such knowledge. The “understanding heart is one that searches for knowledge”; it is not satisfied with a mere superficial view but seeks to get the full picture. (Pr 15:14) Knowledge must become ‘pleasant to one’s very soul’ if discernment is to safeguard one from perversion and deception.—Pr 2:10, 11; 18:15; see KNOWLEDGE.

Proverbs 1:1-6 shows that the “man of understanding is the one who acquires skillful direction, to understand a proverb and a puzzling saying, the words of wise persons and their riddles.” These must not be things said merely to pass the time away in idle conversation, for wise persons would not customarily waste time in such manner, but must refer to instruction, questions, and problems that discipline and train the mind and heart in right principles, thereby equipping the learner for wise action in the future. (Compare Ps 49:3, 4.) Knowledge and understanding together bring wisdom, which is “the prime thing,” the ability to bring a fund of knowledge and keen understanding to bear on problems with successful results. (Pr 4:7) The person who is rightly motivated seeks understanding, not out of mere curiosity or to exalt himself, but for the very purpose of acting in wisdom; ‘wisdom is before his face.’ (Pr 17:24; see WISDOM.) He is not like those in the apostle Paul’s day who assumed to be teachers of others but were “puffed up with pride, not understanding anything,” unwisely letting themselves become “mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words,” things that produce disunity and a host of bad results.—1Ti 6:3-5.
...

The bible also gives a warning what will happen if you try to reason with someone about a rhetorical question they don't really want an answer to or gain any understanding about cause they much prefer to keep using it as an argument to critique God and/or the bible (that's why my links and responses are more for the rest of the audience, but who knows, I'd highly welcome you breaking through your programming by this system of things, the spirit of the world and the ruler of this world and all his willing and unwilling or ignorant human pawns, not knowing who they''re arguing for and serving, unwilling to even consider his possible existence and influence, making them naive and extremely susceptible to being indoctrinated, programmed, conditioned to think and behave according to telltale patterns, described in the bible and providing evidence of its accuracy regarding what and who is causing that behaviour, way of thinking and arguing or reasoning or perhaps better said, staying ignorant and in figurative darkness, having a mere superficial view of the subject without much or any understanding, a bare minimum of knowledge and no wisdom as a result).

Proverbs 29:9,11
When a wise man enters into a controversy with a fool,
There will be ranting and ridicule, but no satisfaction.


A stupid person gives vent to all his feelings,* [Lit., “spirit.”]
But the wise one calmly keeps them in check.


Oh, because I used the biblical phrase "spirit of the world" I should probably leave a reminder that the word "spirit" is used in a variety of ways in the bible. The way it is used in that phrase is described in more specific detail if you click that link, but it's also described (just for the word "spirit", not the entire phrase) below, showing the relation to the phrase "disclose what is in his heart" (Pr. 18:2) and "vent to all his feelings"; synonyms for "feelings" are opinions/beliefs and they usually come in the form of emotionally laden arguments or appeals to emotion, sometimes carefully hidden behind a front of apathy or stoicism, indifference about the subject. Just to be clear, your line of argumentation is such an appeal to emotion, you're using the word "logic" in your rhetorical question at the end but you want (people) to think about how unjust God supposedly is if he existed and allows human suffering to continue, not interfering in your example; you're attempting to paint your emotionally laden picture and feelings about a supposed God on that God with a set of rhetorical questions. Anyway, back to...
Spirit:

Impelling Mental Inclination. Ruʹach and pneuʹma are both used to designate the force that causes a person to display a certain attitude, disposition, or emotion or to take a certain action or course. While that force within the person is itself invisible, it produces visible effects. This use of the Hebrew and Greek terms rendered “spirit” and basically related to breath or to air in motion is paralleled to a considerable degree by English expressions. Thus, we speak of a person as ‘putting on airs,’ or of manifesting an ‘air of calmness’ or of ‘having a bad spirit.’ We speak of ‘breaking a person’s spirit,’ in the sense of discouraging and disheartening him. As applying to a group of persons and the dominant force activating them, we may talk of ‘getting into the spirit of an occasion,’ or ...

edit on 30-1-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 05:23 AM
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To God,

Being a kind, honest and generous citizen of Auz/Earth sure does give you a dry pecker.

And you know how to fix that?

Saliva from a good friend.

So how bout it God... wanna help out a friend in a moment of need?

Coomba98
edit on 30-1-2017 by coomba98 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 09:01 AM
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One must remember that God made Adam and Eve perfect in every way, not holy but perfect. This perfection included freewill, freewill to follow what God told him or not. freedom to follow the words of the serpent (Satan that old devil the serpent Rev 20) or to be deceived. It was their choice that caused them to fall from grace and they became imperfect begins still with a freewill.

Now if God were to have not given freewill to Adam and Eve we would not be able to give him love or receive his love because to love or not to love is a choice one must make from their freewill. The one way God gave us a choice to love him freely was by allowing sin and evil to come into this world then send his Son to die for each man and be a ransom for many that we through our freewill could choose to receive his love through faith on Christ's finished work of the cross and love him in return.

If he took all the evil out and all the disease away, and made all things perfect without making a way of escape from the sin, he then is the one who is not being loving, righteous or holy. This way he remains blameless for evil and sin but made a way for you to make a freewill choice to believe through Christ or not thereby receiving his love or rejecting it.

JFYT



posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 12:23 PM
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Hey so this is one of my favorite topics and i was just talking about this with my cousin about a month ago so if im gettinf this right than you belive that it is impossible for god to have planned our course and let us have free will if this is correct then i belive you are looking at this all wrong and should read bohethist he wrote a method of thinking similar to calvin and its what i believe. God is out of our abilty to comprehend therefor not limited to time while we are constraned by it. We have the choice because of time where as god is out side viewing the choice the he knows we make
message me if you wanna talk more



posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 01:12 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn




One must remember that God made Adam and Eve perfect in every way, not holy but perfect. This perfection included freewill, freewill to follow what God told him or not. freedom to follow the words of the serpent (Satan that old devil the serpent Rev 20) or to be deceived. It was their choice that caused them to fall from grace and they became imperfect begins still with a freewill.
God said that it was good .One could debate if good is equivalent to perfect ie. how could a perfect creature make such a detrimental mistake . It was not their choice .Maybe Adam made the choice but Eve was deceived ..Even Gods heavenly host seems to have either made a concise choice or have fallen prey to deception . Were they less perfect then Gods earthly creation ?



posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 03:37 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

I did qualify my statement by saying perfect but not holy. The two are not the same.

There are two types of angels "Satan's angles (Matt 22:41, Rev 12:7)" and "Holy Angels" ( Mt 25:31, Mr 8:38. Lk 9:26 and Rev 14:10) So angels at one time were perfect but some fell and became devils and other did not and became holy by their choice. Just like men today have a choice to be holy or wicked.
edit on 30-1-2017 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



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