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Do we really have free will? And how do you feel about God after reading this?

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posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 06:24 AM
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So to start, I was raised as a southern babtist, and these were things I was taught, that seem relevant in every branch of Christianity:

1. God is all knowing.
2. God is all powerful.
3. God views the past, present, and future as one.

So I've done a lot of thinking on this subject, and I've posted this on other forums. No one has really been able to dispute or find my way of logic as invalid. I've lurked on here for about a month and finally decided to post this here.

If God views the past, present, and future as one collective, then free will is just an illusion to us because we can't see our own future. However, god can. He knows what choices we will make 5 minutes from now and 50 years from now. Therefore, do we even have free will? A common rebuttal to this that I've heard is god can see all of our choices we might make, but we still make our choice.

If you go off of that logic, then you have to effectively admit god isn't all knowing. Because if he can see all of our choices, but doesn't know which one we will choose, then god can't be all knowing. Therefore to us we have free will because we don't know what the future holds, but to god everything is predetermined and our free will doesn't exist.

Taking this logic even further, when god "creates" us, again he sees our lives as one collective, our past, present, and future. Therefore at the point of creation, god would have to know how each of our lives will turn out. Meaning, at the point of creation god knows who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. If God doesn't know that information, God isn't all knowing. But since we believe god is all knowing, he has to know that information before we are even created. Meaning there is no fair chance of getting into heaven.

If you find yourself disagreeing with this logic, you have to admit to yourself that god can't possibly be all knowing. If God isn't all knowing, then god can't be all powerful. If God isn't all knowing, or all powerful, then god looses the traits used to describe god as god, meaning god wouldn't be a god.
edit on 29-1-2017 by Artorias because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 06:27 AM
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a reply to: Artorias

What IF God is not actually in charge of this world?

Said being could still possess all of said qualities




posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 06:31 AM
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a reply to: Artorias

And if there is no such thing as "God"? then what?

2nd



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 06:33 AM
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originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Artorias

What IF God is not actually in charge of this world?

Said being could still possess all of said qualities



Even if God isn't in charge, all of this is still relevant. God would still have created us, knowing our collective life events. You could argue that whoever would be in charge wouldn't know, but god would still know, meaning free will is a fabrication, and who gets to go to heaven or hell is predetermined irregardless.



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 06:35 AM
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originally posted by: Artorias

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Artorias

What IF God is not actually in charge of this world?

Said being could still possess all of said qualities



Even if God isn't in charge, all of this is still relevant. God would still have created us, knowing our collective life events. You could argue that whoever would be in charge wouldn't know, but god would still know, meaning free will is a fabrication, and who gets to go to heaven or hell is predetermined irregardless.


Perhaps heaven and hell are both myths...

And everyone goes to whatever afterlife occurs?




posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 06:36 AM
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originally posted by: corblimeyguvnor
a reply to: Artorias

And if there is no such thing as "God"? then what?

2nd


Then all of this is pointless. But we have no way of knowing that information. I myself can say I believe a god COULD exist. I just don't believe in religion based off of my views from the op. If religion was something actually given to us by god and not a man made concept, then it would be perfect, and would have such crippling plot holes.



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 06:38 AM
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originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Artorias

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Artorias

What IF God is not actually in charge of this world?

Said being could still possess all of said qualities



Even if God isn't in charge, all of this is still relevant. God would still have created us, knowing our collective life events. You could argue that whoever would be in charge wouldn't know, but god would still know, meaning free will is a fabrication, and who gets to go to heaven or hell is predetermined irregardless.


Perhaps heaven and hell are both myths...

And everyone goes to whatever afterlife occurs?



Anything could be possible. None of us knows what happens when we die. I mainly wrote this post because I want to hear a religious person prove me wrong, as I have yet to hear any sound reasoning against this. For all we know, when we die, something completely unknown and never before perceived could happen.



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 06:38 AM
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a reply to: Artorias I was never taught that God sees past , present , and future as one🤔Did I miss something in catechism class?🤷🏻‍♀️



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 06:41 AM
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originally posted by: Artorias

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Artorias

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Artorias

What IF God is not actually in charge of this world?

Said being could still possess all of said qualities



Even if God isn't in charge, all of this is still relevant. God would still have created us, knowing our collective life events. You could argue that whoever would be in charge wouldn't know, but god would still know, meaning free will is a fabrication, and who gets to go to heaven or hell is predetermined irregardless.


Perhaps heaven and hell are both myths...

And everyone goes to whatever afterlife occurs?



Anything could be possible. None of us knows what happens when we die. I mainly wrote this post because I want to hear a religious person prove me wrong, as I have yet to hear any sound reasoning against this. For all we know, when we die, something completely unknown and never before perceived could happen.


So... removing said notion of heaven or hell...

Are we not free to live our lives AS we see fit?




posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 06:59 AM
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How do you get from "God views the past, present, and future as one" to "everything is predetermined" ?

"before we are even created" and during and after , because its not in time.

"no fair chance of getting into heaven" how does that follow from knowing "past, present, and future as one" ?

As far as i know 1 2 and 3 are taught to ALL monotheists not just christian.



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 07:05 AM
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Your logic has been played out before by others. It's lacking. I'll be back later to explain. But as a hint until then, you've left a variable out that causes your entire set to be illogical and for your conclusion to be erroneous.



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 07:08 AM
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a reply to: Artorias

Congratulations! You are on the path to become a Calvinist! Perhaps you should make a pilgrimage to the Plymouth Plantation....



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 07:34 AM
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I feel that the free will man has been given does not involve his actions, but his thoughts. While God may know everything you will ever do and still love you, only you have the power to feel good or bad about your actions.



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 07:41 AM
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Why does God knowing what choices you will make negate the fact you were free to make any choice you wanted?

It doesn't.



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 07:46 AM
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a reply to: Artorias


So to start, I was raised as a southern babtist, and these were things I was taught, that seem relevant in every branch of Christianity:

1. God is all knowing.
2. God is all powerful.
3. God views the past, present, and future as one.


Easy peasy... your premise is faulty, therefore your conclusions are faulty.

Despite what it "seems" to you, no, not every branch of Christianity teaches that "God views the past, present, and future as one." I have, however, heard such claims made... but not by any Christians I know or any branch of Christianity.... so therefore not by all or "every" branch of Christianity.

I would be more inclined to believe that before our births, our souls or higher spirits establish certain goals or purposes for that life, and therefore one way or another circumstances and conditions will encourage or compel us to deal with certain issues to get us where we need to be to fulfill our goals. How we do so is up to us and our free will. We can do it the right way or the wrong way... the easy way or the hard way... with virtue or with vice... for good or evil... But get there we will!

So God knows where we going -- because we made the choice. And God knows the various ways we can get there.

I feel absolutely no different about God after reading this. Why would I? Your perceptions and/or misconceptions about God says everything about you, but little if anything about God.



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 07:46 AM
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What is pure free will, an absense of any rules? Anarchic and entirely random, and therefore impossible.

Whether there is a God or not, just the existence of rules of physics would argue that we don't have free will, as so many of our choices are determined by chemical process and the world around us.

I wonder how many people in the world have led the life they would have done if given the choice. Many of our choices are made based on what we have the resources to do, rather than what we would like to.



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 07:49 AM
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Let us take into consideration that there are a number n of timelines, and every action takes us to one of those timelines.
And “God” knows their exact number and everything about each one.
This way he is all-knowing, whatever course of action we are taking leading us to one of those timelines, each with its own ending.
And we still have the choice of “jumping” to one or another of those possible endings through our actions.
A choice limited by n, of course.



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 07:58 AM
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Oh boy. Looks like we're gonna need Phage in on THIS one.



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 08:04 AM
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Plowin deep old boy...

A base truth we could start with....God is all powerful....sovergn....but in Scripture he says we are his friends because seventh don't know the plan but we do.....and we are sojourner with him on this journey....

What you point out is valid and a mystery till that posters gets back to us later.....



posted on Jan, 29 2017 @ 08:10 AM
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a reply to: Artorias

Here's the way I see it. The body is not aware of the "souls" agenda for life. The soul can only maneuver within the river, that leads to the ocean which is "god", as well as it can steer its vessel, whether that vessel be a life vest, a raft or a luxury liner.

Like a game of pool, the cue ball has no feel will. The one behind the cue stick does, but that person's will is only as powerful as their mastery of the cue stick and ball.





edit on 29-1-2017 by windword because: (no reason given)



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