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Heavy Helicopter question

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posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 12:29 PM
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So.. just now 3 Chinook ( 1958 ) helicopters buzzed my house.

And.. my restless mind .. came to the idea to google how many we have in the Netherlands ( answer about 17 )
But it raised some more questions in my ( non-expert) mind.

My eye noticed in the description of our defense department : Its called a MIDDLE-heavy transport helicopter.
So i was wondering.. if this is middle.. what would be heavy ?

Did some googling and it seems they are called sometimes heavy, but here we call them middle heavy.
I did see the Russian Mi26 (1980 ) and I have to admit.. its a bit larger.



Also there is the CH-53K ( first model 1962 )

So what is the future of these helicopters ?
One would think that a heavy lifting VTOL aircraft has many military or civilian uses.
But it seems to be, there is not any recent innovation development in this sector for 30 years.

Why ?

Something else in the dark that makes those machines obsolete ?
Or just not economical? Or just not enough arial innovation to come up with something innovative?

Anyone know what the current development status is on heavy lifting helicopters ?



edit on 26-1-2017 by EartOccupant because: Too many But's removed.




posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 12:51 PM
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a reply to: EartOccupant

The CH-53 is the heaviest in the US military. The CH-47 is also classified as a heavy, I'm not sure why yours says middle heavy. Typo maybe?



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 12:51 PM
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a reply to: EartOccupant

I would guess (and it is just a guess) that there are limits to how big they can get and how fast the rotors can rotate due to the stresses the materials involved get exposed to while maintaining enough lift. I would also guess that without adding jet engines, supersonic capabilities or a third rotor, the limit has pretty much been reached.

I'm sure Zaphod will be along soon to enlighten us but it is an interesting question.

My ex-girlfriend lived in Noord-Brabant and they flew regularly over her house. A most distinctive sound.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 12:52 PM
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a reply to: EartOccupant

Believe it or not, there's not a large commercial market for heavy lift, the size you're talking about. They have the Sky Crane, that's capable of lifting a shipping container sized payload, the Mi-26, and that's about it.

For the military, the US is currently testing the CH-53K, which increases the payload of the CH-53. There are one or two others in the early design stages but not much more.

They're talking about increasing the Mi-26 payload through various means, but I'm not sure how much they can at this point. It depends on rotor size, and eventually you hit a brick wall.
edit on 1/26/2017 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 12:57 PM
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'Copters are noisy, have limited range and are relatively slow.

As such there is not much need for them to be bigger than they are now.

The Russians tried the Mi-12 which was all kinds of huge but something of a white elephant.




posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 01:07 PM
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a reply to: FauxMulder

Well .. i don't think it's a typo, because (Dutch) Wikipedia stated it as well as the defense department.

If you are intrested I provide two links stating the "Middle" Maybe you can not read Dutch, but the funny thin is that the both words are almost alike in Dutch and English so if you look for example here you will recognize it in the first sentence on both pages.. I guess the measurement standards our military once set are different, IOW
Dutch Defence Department
Dutch Wiki on Chinook



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 01:08 PM
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a reply to: LightSpeedDriver

Good point, i also wondered what the stress factors would be on the material with those kind of rotor sizes and rotor speed.

I think its amazing already.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 01:10 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

I believe it ! : )

And what about innovation ?

Sometimes size gets replaced by innovation, any exciting stuff on the horizon ?
edit on 26-1-2017 by EartOccupant because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 01:25 PM
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Weren't Russia and China in talks to build a even bigger chopper?

Something that could lift outlift the mi-26?
edit on 26-1-2017 by grey580 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 01:30 PM
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ahhh found it.

It's gonna be a big helicopter.

www.militaryfactory.com...







The Chinese and Russians have entered into a joint design partnership to produce an all-new very-high-altitude, heavy-lift helicopter. The requested maximum speed is set at 186 miles per hour with a range out to 390 miles. More importantly, engineers have been given the challenge of designing the aircraft with a service ceiling up to 18,696 feet (5,700 meters) capable of reaching the highest points of the rugged Chinese countryside. Gross weight is estimated at 84,200 pounds with possible seating for some sixty passengers. At present, this rotorcraft would be dimensionally smaller than the mammoth Russian Mil Mi-26 "Halo" heavy hauler but larger (and twice as heavy) as the American Boeing CH-47F "Chinook" tandem rotor system of the U.S. military. The Mi-26 is currently the largest helicopter in service anywhere in the world with operators in Russia, India and the Ukraine (among others).



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 01:35 PM
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a reply to: neformore

Of course they have downsides... but the VTOL weighs in on that

No runways, no roads, everywhere to land.... That alone would make it more economical as many other transportation.
But, i think Zaphod has a point, although they are handy and versatile, the actual market for these machines could be very low.

Because initial costs would make your project expensive unless you do not have acces to roads.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 01:38 PM
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a reply to: grey580

Nice one!

60 people.. that gives you an indication of the inside space.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 01:46 PM
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a reply to: EartOccupant

The Army is in the process of developing pusher prop helicopters for various roles, such as scouts. They have a much higher top speed than a standard configuration.



I think the big game changer though is going to be the tilt rotor. There are several in development that may prove to be big leaps forward.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 01:48 PM
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a reply to: LightSpeedDriver

Year the sound of those Chinooks is very special...

It looks like if they " chop" the air .. whop..whop..whop..
Once you heard one.. you can tell tem from far away.

I'm not in Brabant, but close!

A lot of activity here, I once was followed in my car by an Apache, a few hundred meters behind me , about 200 meters maybe in the air.. but still intimidating!

In my previous job we had sometimes them hoovering almost " out of the window" ( Translation: close enough for a civilian to be impressed )

Sometimes they get a little to cocky.. They hit a few years ago the power lines with an apache.

Somehow i like the state of art technology, power and innovations.. Sad it has to be war to get those things accomplished.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 01:49 PM
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a reply to: EartOccupant

That's not much more than a CH-53K. The normal capacity for a K is 37, but if they put the center seats in it goes up to 55.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 01:50 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

Oke.. not only development.. Do you see in your personal opinion the V-22 Osprey as a plane or a helicopter ?

And do you think the rotors have advantages of a VTOL jet like system ?



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 01:51 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

Ah.. So not much innovation there as well.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:08 PM
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a reply to: EartOccupant

It's both. The Osprey is neither fish, nor fowl. A tilt rotor is a useful beast though. All the advantage of a helicopter, with the speed of an aircraft. The complexity is a bad thing though, as it adds a lot of failure points.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:16 PM
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a reply to: Zaphod58

Ok.

Maybe a stupid question, but with current gyroscope technology ..

How hard would it be to make an V22 a like plane with Jet engines ?
Too me it seems overdue since the Saab and Harrier.

How hard can it be with current tech to " just " rotate the Jets , while electronics regulate the balance ?

I know the F35 has the option... but i see that hone has more tasks to forfill to be in this league.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:33 PM
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a reply to: EartOccupant

That would be a Bad Idea. Jet engines are very susceptible to Foreign Object Damage (FOD). A very small rock can take out a fan blade, and cause a surprising amount of damage. One of the more interesting problems found with the Osprey is that if it's in a dusty environment too long, the heat from the engines turns the sand into glass inside the engine, causing power rollback.

The F-35 uses a lift fan that has the intake on top, and lands quickly. If it hovers, it has to do it fairly high to avoid FOD being kicked up and going into the engine.
edit on 1/26/2017 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)




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