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Mexican President postures, cancels Tuesday meeting with Trump

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posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 06:46 PM
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originally posted by: UKTruth
Indeed, so do it legally.
Simple.

They can't do it legally at that price. Of course they can lobby to get more worker permits but they don't because...


As far as 'how' things are the argument seems to have shifted from market dynamics to greedy businessmen looking for maximum profit. Two very different problems.

One is part of the other.




posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 06:47 PM
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originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Indigo5
a reply to: interupt42

Some true..Some not..

The bulk of DACA immigrants that Pres. Obama granted temporary amnesty to are second generation, attending college, employed in the service sector etc. Sprouted from parents and grand-parents that worked themselves to death in the fields.

Again. The cost of employing Americans is not attainable. The market would not bear it. And even if we were to quadruple the price of produce to pay American workers to harvest it...we still want our kids to have better jobs.

I recommend you watch the Vice video I linked to on the last page.

We have tried repeatedly in many states and failed..



Is your argument really that USA businesses can not afford to pay minimum wage in order for the price of tomatoes (or other produce) to be affordable for the American people, and as such needs to employee illegal aliens as cheap labour?

IF that is true then your country is in serious trouble.


Minimum wage does not attract minimum workers to harvest the minimum amount for any size farm to survive.

That said...I don't give a rat's ass what some guy in the UK has to say about my country being in "serious trouble"..

Maybe the UK should concern itself with kissing the current idiots ass that leads the free world...Cuz idiot or not the UKs fate is wed to our graces.


Oh dear. What's upsetting you?

Anyhow, back to the main question. Why does a wall stop a business hiring Mexicans? That can be done legally. When any country has a labour shortage it looks to fill it from outside its borders.


That has to do with an overly politicized immigration debate and an overly complex and expensive immigration process..

most often described as the "broken immigration system" and "immigration reform" that has not happened despite bi-partisan calls for the same.

I am good with a crackdown on illegal immigration...but for the sake of the American economy, immigration reform should happen first. Otherwise we are severely attacking and harming our own agricultural industry/farmers for political rhetorical purposes.

In free-market capitalism...Supply and demand rules. Labor Demand is ruling over a broken immigration system.
edit on 26-1-2017 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 06:47 PM
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a reply to: interupt42


Prosecute American companies that hire illegals and the majority of illegals won't come because they will not have an incentive to come. However, they never put the American companies in the spotlight when it comes to illegals.

...

To be fair its not that corporations are evil its that they have unrealistic goals that require them to infinitely grow both profits and as a company for eternity by their stock holders. If they don't they die . So we are left with companies under immense pressure with lots of money that can LEGALLY change the laws without seeing or caring about the future impact.

A-FREAKIN'-MEN!!!

Not much to add, but I wanted to thank you for that post.

TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 06:48 PM
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originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: UKTruth




Is your argument really that USA businesses can not afford to pay minimum wage in order for the price of tomatoes (or other produce) to be affordable for the American people, and as such needs to employee illegal aliens as cheap labour?


Its not that they can't afford too, but why would they pay somebody a minimum wage ,benefits,workers comp and rights when they don't have too.

The agriculture , hospitality , and Construction industry are some of the most powerful lobbyist that directly benefit from the cheap illegal work force. That is why politicians always BS about how to solve the illegal immigration problem, its because they don't really want to fix it. Their buddies (lobbyist) are paying them not to fix it an look the other way.

Prosecute American companies that hire illegals and the majority of illegals won't come because they will not have an incentive to come. However, they never put the American companies in the spotlight when it comes to illegals.





IF that is true then your country is in serious trouble.

Agreed , our politicians don't even draft the laws the lobbyist dream team of lawyers draft the laws for them . they just simply robosign them and collect the campaign donations checks.

They have sold our country with short sided visions set by the big corporations in America who don't even identify as American companies any longer but rather Global corporations.

To be fair its not that corporations are evil its that they have unrealistic goals that require them to infinitely grow both profits and as a company for eternity by their stock holders. If they don't they die . So we are left with companies under immense pressure with lots of money that can LEGALLY change the laws without seeing or caring about the future impact.






I was watching an interview with an illegal alien worker from California. He was saying exactly the same thing, albeit sheepishly because FOX put him on with a mother whose son was shot and killed by an illegal.

The problem does seem easy enough to fix. Employ workers from Mexico legally and pay them minimum wage... Let the market decide what price it can bare.

For some reason there are a lot of people who think the country will fall apart if the law is applied. This is not aimed at anyone in particular, rather a theme I see in the media too. Quite a negative outlook.
edit on 26/1/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 06:59 PM
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a reply to: UKTruth




The problem does seem easy enough to fix. Employ workers from Mexico legally and pay them minimum wage... Let the market decide what price it can bare.


The gotcha is that once the employers have to pay them minimum wage ,rights and benefits they will stop hiring them . Its the cheap labor, no rights, and no benefits that makes them attractive.






For some reason there are a lot of people who think the country will fall apart if the law is applied.

If the law is applied too fast it certainly is a concern , that the country will fall apart. Illegal workers are very engrained into our economy.




edit on 59131America/ChicagoThu, 26 Jan 2017 18:59:32 -0600000000p3142 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 06:59 PM
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a reply to: Indigo5


I am good with a crackdown on illegal immigration...but for the sake of the American economy, immigration reform should happen first. Otherwise we are severely attacking and harming our own agricultural industry/farmers for political rhetorical purposes.

I agree with everything you said, except... wall (border control) first.

During Reagan's administration, he struck a deal. Grant amnesty to illegal aliens already here, beef up border security, and then streamline the immigration process. It was a good deal, except that the Democrats blocked funding for the border security and the Republicans, in response, blocked the immigration bill. Now look where we are.

So I won't go along with promises of future action in exchange for immediate actions. This time we build the wall, and then I am all for a much less expensive/lengthy/complicated immigration process.

TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 07:00 PM
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originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Indigo5
a reply to: interupt42

Some true..Some not..

The bulk of DACA immigrants that Pres. Obama granted temporary amnesty to are second generation, attending college, employed in the service sector etc. Sprouted from parents and grand-parents that worked themselves to death in the fields.

Again. The cost of employing Americans is not attainable. The market would not bear it. And even if we were to quadruple the price of produce to pay American workers to harvest it...we still want our kids to have better jobs.

I recommend you watch the Vice video I linked to on the last page.

We have tried repeatedly in many states and failed..



Is your argument really that USA businesses can not afford to pay minimum wage in order for the price of tomatoes (or other produce) to be affordable for the American people, and as such needs to employee illegal aliens as cheap labour?

IF that is true then your country is in serious trouble.


Minimum wage does not attract minimum workers to harvest the minimum amount for any size farm to survive.

That said...I don't give a rat's ass what some guy in the UK has to say about my country being in "serious trouble"..

Maybe the UK should concern itself with kissing the current idiots ass that leads the free world...Cuz idiot or not the UKs fate is wed to our graces.


Oh dear. What's upsetting you?

Anyhow, back to the main question. Why does a wall stop a business hiring Mexicans? That can be done legally. When any country has a labour shortage it looks to fill it from outside its borders.


That has to do with an overly politicized immigration debate and an overly complex and expensive immigration process..

most often described as the "broken immigration system" and "immigration reform" that has not happened despite bi-partisan calls for the same.

I am good with a crackdown on illegal immigration...but for the sake of the American economy, immigration reform should happen first. Otherwise we are severely attacking and harming our own agricultural industry/farmers for political rhetorical purposes.

In free-market capitalism...Supply and demand rules. Labor Demand is ruling over a broken immigration system.


I agree the immigration debate is politicised, however there is law in place that can be followed.

The wall is not going to impact illegal workers, except those that leave the USA and return seasonally. This is because there seems to be no focus on deporting illegals until the immigration debate has been properly concluded, except for criminals.

It's only new illegal immigration that will be stopped. I just can't see the wall being a driver of issues within the farming industry in the short to mid term.
edit on 26/1/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)

edit on 26/1/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 07:10 PM
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originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: UKTruth




The problem does seem easy enough to fix. Employ workers from Mexico legally and pay them minimum wage... Let the market decide what price it can bare.


The gotcha is that once the employers have to pay them minimum wage ,rights and benefits they will stop hiring them . Its the cheap labor, no rights, and no benefits that makes them attractive.






For some reason there are a lot of people who think the country will fall apart if the law is applied.

If the law is applied too fast it certainly is a concern , that the country will fall apart. Illegal workers are very engrained into our economy.





If they stop hiring then they still have to maintain production levels or lose revenues., But I take the point. Perhaps the good thing is that it would shift the debate away from illegal aliens and onto greedy business people. By the way,the focus should be there now because if illegals are working and the govt is fully aware, then in my view they should be given working rights and paid minimum wage anyway.

As for applying the law too fast, what I am seeing seems about right. Wall, deport criminal illegals, stop the influx of illegals, leave everyone else alone for now.
edit on 26/1/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 07:57 PM
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a reply to: xstealth

Doubt it. Trump will make Americans pay for the wall. Which already happened. SO far the solution to pay for the wall is stopping AID to mexico, taxing Mexican exports to the USA. Both of these tax Americans.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 08:18 PM
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originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: Indigo5




But the jobs that Illegals are occupying in the USA are jobs US Citizens refuse to do.

Not true.

IMO The problem is not that American refuse to do them. Its that they CAN'T do them and survive or provide for their family.

An illegal Mexican comes over here with no papers gets paid below minimum wage,cash, no benefits , slave labor and is happy as a little kid.

Here is why:
That mexican does not have his family here nor does he have plans to retire here in the US. He is living with 15 other mexicans in a shed in an agriculture compound. Every little dollar he earns he is saving to send back home .

Once he saves enough money he is out of the country and then living like a King in his Mexican Village.

Not even an illegal Mexican can survive long or provide for their family if they are living here and planning to live here. If they are all living here together then they are all working with the same goal : Save and move back to Mexico.

So unless Americans are willing to send their family to Mexico now and or later retire in Mexico in a little village , they won't be able to survive either with those jobs.

Its the cost of living in America that is preventing Americans from taking those jobs. Its makes no sense for anyone to become a slave labor with no rights and kill yourself to still be homeless and not provide for your family.

Its not as easy as saying that they are lazy, its that an American family can't survive on slave illegal wages and still live in America.



In my biz I've seen this exact thing.

Had a couple dishwashers doing this. One was almost a millionaire, back home. They worked 7 days a week when we were open. The other was well educated but couldn't find a job that paid as well, in Mexico.

Wonderful people.

This was late 70's.

When you have a small labor pool to draw from, they can really help but doesn't negate the fact they are illegal.
Temp work visas should be easier to get.









posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 08:49 PM
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a reply to: burgerbuddy

Yep a lot of them are really hard workong people trying to better their families live back home or survive.

Unfortunately the bad few get more the attention.

They are doing what most of us would do to provide for our family under extreme situation.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 09:08 PM
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originally posted by: Indigo5
Again. The cost of employing Americans is not attainable. The market would not bear it.


Not true. The real issue is that Executive and CEO salaries have bloated to such absurd ratios (compared to the average workers', whose wages have remained stagnant for roughly 30 years), and they simply don't want to "take a cut" in order to compensate their "average workers" fairly.

The money is there, but the system is designed to promote siphoning as much off to the top as possible, and there's little-to-no incentive for large corporations to pay average employees fair compensation for their work promoting and enabling a successful company.

Wal-Mart's owners are billionaires (many times over). How did they make all those billions? By having over 80% of their workforce subsidized by welfare and food stamps so that those at the top could keep taking home those billions.
edit on 1/26/17 by redmage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 09:10 PM
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"Mexican President postures, cancels Tuesday meeting with Trump"

Wow. Given Trump's recent statements one would never have seen this one coming.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 09:17 PM
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a reply to: interupt42

I completely agree. The only gripe I have is the illegality.

I also agree with the comment about only the criminals get noticed. The very statement Trump made that got him called a racist is a good example. "They're (Mexico) sending murderers, rapists, and, I assume, some are good people." That's true (I would have said most instead of some), but what gets focused on? "Murderers" and "rapists." Not the "good people."

I have a cousin who's of Mexican (well, half Mexican, half Mayan) heritage. Awesome guy, an engineer, honest, hard worker, good provider for his family, and a lot of fun to talk to. I assume most Mexicans are like that. Heck, I want them to get their country cleaned up and improved so I'd feel OK to visit. Mexican restaurants are awesome; imagine one actually in Mexico!

And yes, my cousin is legal... naturalized American.

TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 09:21 PM
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a reply to: redmage

The system accomplishes this through selective lax enforcement of the laws. Why, then, would anyone advocate continuing that lax enforcement?

The wall is to keep the law from being violated, not to close off the US from the rest of the world.

TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 09:27 PM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

I'm not advocating lax enforcement.

I'm simply saying that this is like giving a case of band-aids (instead of a single band-aid) to a cancer patient. Either way, band-aids aren't going to cure the cancer.

In this case band-aids can be helpful for some of the crime issues, but the economic issues are a cancer that "the wall" just can't fix.
edit on 1/26/17 by redmage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 09:41 PM
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a reply to: redmage

How do you stop greed? the foundation of capitalism these days.
edit on 26-1-2017 by vonclod because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 09:45 PM
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a reply to: vonclod

You can't. It's the root of capitalism which is our chosen economic system.

The key to ending the welfare state is to incentivize corporations to compensate their employees on their own.

Placing a cap on the "CEO:Avg. Employee" compensation-ratio would be one method. The more you compensate your employees, the more you're free to take off the top. At the moment that ratio has reached absurd and unsustainable levels, and it's killing the middle-class in America.
edit on 1/26/17 by redmage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 09:58 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: xstealth

He isn't. The US taxpayer will be paying for the wall. If you think otherwise then I have a wall to sell you. Oh wait...

My hope is that Ashley Judd will pay for it by supporting Mexico and buying stuff from there. She can afford the tariffs and the higher cost of the product if Mexico raises prices



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 10:05 PM
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originally posted by: Cynic
"Mexican President postures, cancels Tuesday meeting with Trump"

Wow. Given Trump's recent statements one would never have seen this one coming.

I understand the tariff idea came after



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