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Requiring ID to exercise a constitutional right

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posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:18 PM
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originally posted by: KEACHI
a reply to: XTexan

A Constitutional Right is only meant to people living under that Constitution, i.e. legal citizens.
If you can not prove citizenship, then you do not hold those rights.
So, yes it is a very easy question to answer. Not only is it right/legal to require proof, but it is actually necessary.
absolutely perfectly stated. Well done.




posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:21 PM
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originally posted by: gernblan

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: XTexan

The reason it was considered racist and unconstitutional in the first place is how it targets socioeconomically disadvantaged people (which is almost always tied to racism).

To make this a constitutional and racism-neutral thing, the government would have to provide everybody with the proper documentation, free of any charge whatsoever. Meaning if they need several kinds of IDs to get that voter ID, the government would have to pay for all of those IDs.
that would be fine it would be an absolutely reasonable thing to do. No problem there.


No conservative that I know of has come forward with that solution. Instead, it is seen as voter suppression since it would mostly prevent the impoverished from voting because suddenly, it would cost money to vote.

If conservatives truly wanted a Voter ID law because they are worried about fraud, they would create a program to provide these for free. This has been an issue for years yet nobody wants to do that. There's a reason why. It's because it has nothing to do with voter fraud in the first place.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:22 PM
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Can't there be an easier way--for the voter--to ensuring our election is good? How many ways can a person vote illegitimately? Using a dead persons' name? Using the same name twice? Using a name doesn't exist? Can't we just improve the system we use to analyze the ballots, so they verify these names and how many are potentially invalid? Dead people shouldn't be counted if they were dead before voting was allowed, for example. Names not existing shouldn't be counted either. Duplicate names are trickier, but perhaps there's a way to trace them?

So far I've failed to see any solid evidence voter fraud is occurring at a level high enough to affect the election. In one google I did, the result was only 18 legit cases were found in something like 30 years. Of course, maybe we're not looking hard enough. And that's why I gave the suggestion above. Lets first show something is happening before we start requiring photo ID to vote.

There was a study back in 2008 or 2009--I think--concluding maybe 8% of undocumented voted. However, a followup study in 2014 invalidated those results. Had something to do with respondents filling the wrong checkbox.
edit on 1/26/2017 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:26 PM
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originally posted by: jonnywhite
So far I've failed to see any solid evidence voter fraud is occurring at a level high enough to affect the election. In one google I did, the result was only 18 legit cases were found. Of course, maybe we're not looking hard enough. And that's why I gave the suggestion above. Lets first show something is happening before we start requiring photo ID to vote.



The system is set up to not produce any red flags nor evidence thanks to the HAVA and lax state laws. The only way to uncover evidence is to verify the eligibility of voters -- after the fact -- because the states didn't do it when they registered to vote. By that, I mean voters who didn't offer SS#s for verification when they registered.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:27 PM
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a reply to: Abysha




The reason it was considered racist and unconstitutional in the first place is how it targets socioeconomically disadvantaged people (which is almost always tied to racism).


well certified copies of birth in fl cost 13 bucks in my county, social security numbers are issued for free by the federal government, and as i said before ID or DL in fl cost 25 bucks.

38 bucks is not a lot of money and most people waste that much whether poor or not.


edit on 26-1-2017 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:29 PM
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originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
a reply to: Abysha




The reason it was considered racist and unconstitutional in the first place is how it targets socioeconomically disadvantaged people (which is almost always tied to racism).


well certified copies of birth in fl cost 13 bucks in my county, social security numbers are issued for free, and as i said before id in fl is 25 bucks.

38 bucks is not alot of money and most people waste that much whether poor or not.



It takes documentation to get those things, as well. If it's all not very much, the make the government pay for it.

Nobody should pay out-of-pocket to vote. Nobody.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:30 PM
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originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
a reply to: Abysha




The reason it was considered racist and unconstitutional in the first place is how it targets socioeconomically disadvantaged people (which is almost always tied to racism).


well certified copies of birth in fl cost 13 bucks in my county, social security numbers are issued for free by the federal government, and as i said before ID or DL in fl cost 25 bucks.

38 bucks is not a lot of money and most people waste that much whether poor or not.



And everyone gets a free birth certificate copy when they are born. That's the copy I still have and I am 45.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:33 PM
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If you can't find a way or means to get a 10 dollar ID I do not want your input on anything especially who will lead the country.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:34 PM
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It's our constitutional right to have confidence our elections are not being highjacked by illegal immigrants that our politicians have allowed in to sway elections in their favor.

Until the borders are secure and millions deported then an ID proving your citizenship should be required to vote, especially since it's required to do nearly everything else in society.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:43 PM
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a reply to: xstealth

Whats to stop the Russians from shipping people over here to vote if there is no need for ID?



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:53 PM
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originally posted by: JBUSA
If you can't find a way or means to get a 10 dollar ID I do not want your input on anything especially who will lead the country.


If you want to charge people to vote, I don't want your input on anything, especially who will lead the country.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:57 PM
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a reply to: Abysha


If you want to charge people to vote, I don't want your input on anything, especially who will lead the country.


Just a question, but if you don't have ID, whats the process you would have to follow to vote?



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 02:59 PM
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a reply to: Abysha

The value of having an ID goes way beyond merely voting. People can get jobs and apply for social services with that ID.

THEY CAN REGISTER TO VOTE WHILE THEY GET THEIR ID.

If you don't have any ID, at all, you are not going to function in this society anyway. Minorities and the elderly are merely being exploited, using stereotypes, so that politicians can cheat and then pat themselves on the back like they care about -isms. Typical, really. I am surprised it hasn't been argued that it's harder for women to get an ID, yet.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 03:01 PM
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originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: JBUSA
If you can't find a way or means to get a 10 dollar ID I do not want your input on anything especially who will lead the country.


If you want to charge people to vote, I don't want your input on anything, especially who will lead the country.


Eh that's alright you either listen to my vote or we proceed to more drastic measures. Either way I win.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 03:05 PM
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a reply to: Abysha


Nobody should pay out-of-pocket to vote. Nobody.


your not paying to vote your paying for a ID which is required for 98% of everyday life in the U.S..

besides that birth certificates are not public records they don't become public until 100 years after birth, not only that, they are the states you are paying for a abstract copy of the original one you are buying a copy from the state.

from pinellas county fl health dept.


Birth certificates are not public records. They only become public records 100 years following the birth.



Please Note: The birth certificate for a newborn is not automatically mailed to the parent after birth. The parent must apply for the birth certificate through a Vital Statistics office and pay the proper fee.

General Birth Certificate Information


when your born the hospital asks if your parents want them to apply for ssn, or do they want to. it's still free etheir way.

in fl to get a dl or IS this is required.


Primary Identification An Original or Certified of One of the Following Primary Identication Documents

Certified United States birth certificate, including territories and District of Columbia
Valid United States Passport or Passport Card
Consular Report of Birth Abroad
Certificate of Naturalization, Form N-550 or Form N-570
Certificate of Citizenship, Form N-560 or Form N-561

Proof of Social Security Number

Social Security Card
W-2 form
Pay check
SSA-1099
Any 1099


If you Do NOT have a Social Security Number:

If you do not have a social security number, you must bring a letter from the Social Security Administration indicating that you were never issued one. In addition, you will need to present at least one proof of ID from the following list:

A driver license from the District of Columbia, U.S. Territories, or one of our 50 states.
School record stating date of birth, which must contain the registrar’s signature.
Transcript of the birth record filed with a public officer charged with the duty of recording certificates.
Baptism certificate, which shows date of birth and the place of baptism.
Family Bible record or birth announcement in a baby book
An insurance policy on the customer’s life which has been in force for at least two years and has the month, day and year of birth.
United States military or military dependent identification card.
An identification card from the District of Columbia, U.S. Territories, or one of our 50 states.
Florida license record or identification card record.
Selective Service Registration (Draft Card).
Florida Vehicle Registration certificate (HSMV 83399, owner’s copy) obtained from the tax collector’s office where the customer’s vehicle was registered, Florida, or out-of-state registration certificate, if name and date of birth are shown.
Receipt copy of your last Florida driver license issuance.
Immigration form I-571.
Federal form DD-214 (military record).
Marriage certificate.
Court order, which includes legal name.
A Florida voter registration card, which was issued at least 3 months previously.
Parent consent form of minor, signed by the parent or legal guardian
Government issued out-of-country passport, driver license, or identification card
Concealed Weapons Permit

2 Proofs of Residential Address

Gather TWO of the following documents showing your residential address: (internet printouts or faxes of these documents are acceptable)

Deed, mortgage, monthly mortgage statement, mortgage payment booklet or residential rental/lease agreement
Florida Voter Registration Card
Florida Vehicle Registration or Title
Florida Boat Registration or Title (if living on a boat/houseboat)
A statement from a parent, step-parent or legal guardian of an applicant. The parent or guardian must reside at the same residence address, accompany the applicant and present "Proof of Residence Address"
A utility hook up or work order dated within 60 days of the application
Automobile Payment Booklet
Selective Service Card
Medical or health card with address listed
Current homeowner’s insurance policy or bill
Current automobile insurance policy or bill
Educational institution transcript forms for the current school year
Unexpired professional license issued by a government agency in the U.S.
W-2 form or 1099 form
Form DS2019, Certificate of Eligibility for Exchange Visitor (J-1) status
A letter from a homeless shelter, transitional service provider, or a half-way house verifying that the customer resides at the shelter address
Utility bills, not more than two months old
Mail from financial institutions; including checking, savings, or investment account statements, not more than two months old
Mail from Federal, State, County or City government agencies (including city and county agencies)
Transients – Sexual Offender/Predator/Career Offender: - FDLE Registration form completed by local sheriff’s department
Drivers License Identification Requirements


so you see just about all of the proofs, can be gotten for free.
again as i say 38 bucks to get a ID is not a lot of money and 98% of poor people waste that on other non essentials.



edit on 26-1-2017 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 03:10 PM
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originally posted by: XTexan
So my question for the ATS community is this: Is it ok/right/legal for the government to require ID from a citizen in order for that citizen to exercise a constitutional right.

On the surface it would seem that this is an easy answer. On a site like ATS I would almost expect everyone to say "No, it is not alright for the government to require ID from us for constitutional rights!". I also would say it is not acceptable.

But its not an easy answer... or is it? I don't know.

The strict constitutionalist inside me says no, but all around me I see that it is. Lets look.

Right to free speech: Most would say you don't need ID for free speech, but do you? The big city near me requires insurance to hold a protest, it doesn't need to be in everyone's name and not everyone has to show ID. But someone does, and they'll need money too. What if you live in a state that requires you to produce ID at request of law enforcement?

Right to freely travel: There's no right to drive per-say so I'm not sure if drivers licenses are a good example but we do accept them. What of the states that require you to show ID at request of law enforcement, does that count?

Right to bear arms: All states require ID for this one. Some say it's good, some say it's bad, lots of debate.

Right to vote: Lots of debate here, not sure if any states require it yet. edited to add: thanks Woodcarver, 34 states require it.

I'm sure there are many other examples, hopefully some of ya'll will post them.

So, is this an easy question? Should the requirement for ID be banned for any constitutional right or is it an acceptable restriction?


XTexan


When talking about the voting issue -- everyone can only vote once, so showing your ID is a way to authorize and track that you voted. Therefor, even though the right to vote is granted through the constitution, how do we verify that you only voted once without tracking your identity? You could say social security number, but anybody who knows yours could use your vote then, and tremendous amounts of people have come in contact with your social security number, you have to put it on every single job application in the country.

So no, I don't think forcing people to have one to vote is unconstitutional, all it's doing is protecting your vote from others that would cast your vote in your place. Essentially, it disarms an entire form of voter fraud whilst also coming with no net negative. I don't want to hear "But, requiring ID restricts minorities from voting" because it doesn't. Nothing is stopping anybody of any race from getting a state issued identification card. Likewise; the only possibility of not being able to financially afford one, requires you to be totally and completely homeless, a vagabond who scrounges out of trash cans to survive, this isn't a slight against homeless people, but if you're just wandering the streets I'm not so sure how politically current or informed you would be, or even, if you would bother to even vote. If you have a place to sleep, you should have no issues getting an identification card. There is no "race" that cannot obtain a basic ID.

You could say "what about people without ID's?" My counter point is -- who do you know that is willing to vote that isn't willing to get an ID? The only valid answer is people without social security numbers and they aren't citizens so they legitimately don't get to vote, so that's a non issue.

Right to bear arms is not infringed upon by requiring identification. You have the right, nowhere is it stated that they aren't allowed to track who exercises that right.

Right to free speech is not infringed upon by getting insurance for an occupation/protest. That type of assembly also requires permitting, so there needs to be a clear leader and it doesn't apply to flash mobs or others who would join willfully randomly and of their own volition.

Showing your ID to law enforcement is for accountability issues and is generally a good thing, at least when the police are operating in their intended manner. I.E. You should never be asked to produce identification by a police officer unless there is reasonable suspicion that a crime has/currently/or is about to take place. A cop cannot just randomly walk up to you and force ID production... this is not a legal action and is absolutely constitutional infringement.

And lastly; Rights are granted to citizens, not everyone is a citizen, ID proves that you are granted those rights, so if you want to exercise those rights, you better be carrying proof that you actually have those rights.
edit on 26-1-2017 by SRPrime because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 03:13 PM
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a reply to: hounddoghowlie

Maybe it's as simple as allowing the DMV &/or SOSs to communicate directly with other agencies that maintain the ID documents people claim they cannot afford to obtain copies of.

They already do this with the SS administration.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 03:13 PM
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a reply to: MotherMayEye

most hospital birth certificates are not certified, states are the one that do that not hospitals. some states in the past mailed them out for free when you were born they don't so that anymore. if you live in a state that has implemented the Real ID Act you will have to get a new one if it's not, to get a DL or ID.

i had to get one 5 years ago when fl complied with the act. i up until that time used a photo copy of the one issued at the hospital for everything, and i'm 55. even joined the Marine Corps with it and SSN.


edit on 26-1-2017 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 03:18 PM
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originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
a reply to: MotherMayEye

most hospital birth certificates are not certified, states are the one that do that not hospitals. some states in the past mailed them out for free when you were born they don't so that anymore. if you live in a state that has implemented the Real ID Act you will have to get a new one if it's not, to get a DL or ID.

i had to get one 5 years ago when fl complied with the act. i up until that time used a photo copy of the one issued at the hospital for everything, and i'm 55. even joined the Marine Corps with it and SSN.




Not hospital birth certificates, state issued birth certificates. And, yes, it wasn't until my last child was born that I had to pay for the first certified copy. She's three, not old enough to vote.

Before then, when you applied for a birth certificate from the state, you were mailed a certified copy for free. Replacements and duplicates cost extra.



posted on Jan, 26 2017 @ 03:48 PM
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We did, ID's are free and easy to get but the true racist are trying to keep the poor down with the same old stories and lies.

a reply to: Abysha









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