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The Arrival of the Longships...in Egypt

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posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 09:57 AM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
I haven't been looking at this in terms of the progressive extension of tribal regions, but yes by about 2,600 BC there were what should probably be considered Horite groups in Palestine.

What interested me was the possibility of a Hurrian group setting up well outside of their tribal region at early period Uruk in the companion settlement of Bad Tibira and working in conjunction with early Sumerian culture, to ensure the supply of ores needed for that civilization and to provide expertise in metallurgy.


A weak possibility. But assuming that all the technology comes from a smaller group is not something that's well supported. Smaller groups might have time to mine but they haven't developed a large culture that allows for a lot of different types of artisans.


It is the Urukians that have helped establish the ports of Southern Mesopotamia and developed the colony of Dilmun and the copper industries of Magan at the earliest date, the only way a Hurrian group could have been in that region at that period would be in partnership with the Sumerians.


If this was true then there'd be linguistic and cultural evidence of it.


The idea of two different cultures setting up settlements alongside each other and working together for mutual benefit is a little unusual, but that's exactly what happened at Kanes in the Taurus mountains with the Anatolians and Assyrians over several centuries, this could also have happened at Abydos.


There's no evidence of it, and the two groups have wildly different languages. In addition, there's no real "motivation" to take dozens of families all that way to settle when there's land and trading partners much closer - and fewer language differences. Trade out of Egypt seems to be between settlements rather than long boat or donkey trips (at least until after the unification of Egypt when the pharaohs wanted more expensive goods.

And there's no reason for Egyptians to adopt someone else's boat technology that requires different materials when they'd already had their own designs that were quite different in the way the boards were cut and attached than the one you propose.




posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 09:58 AM
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originally posted by: St Udio
a reply to: Kantzveldt


as you keep digging....
you might wan to look into the graphics of the boats the mystery Sea People had attributed to them....

very similar to the Egyptian petroglyphs that seem to mistaken for the Viking Longships that have tall elevated bows & sterns to mimic Sea Monsters/Leviathans of mystery

related: linear A & B tablets of Bilos ? spelling?


You do realize that the Sea People were 2,000 years after the time Kanzveldt is discussing...?



posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 10:27 AM
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a reply to: Byrd


I was unawares of that time window


the style of the longboats, the Egypt reed boats, the Sea People boats all had a shared silhouette spanning many years... but those North Sea- Mediterranean constructions were very DISsimilar from Chinese Boats or Ships

so there was either a Cultural theme at play for the boat style to persist through time-space
or a shared construction diagram to copy from ?

the far East had their own unique 'blueprints' no doubt



posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 11:14 AM
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a reply to: Byrd

Such exploratory journeys would only have been undertaken by relatively small groups, but for trade goods to have continued to have arrived the connection would have needed to have been maintained in both directions for some time, for this group to have become the basis for Abydos Royalty they would either have married into the Ruling Class or usurped it at some point, but are unlikely to have impacted much on the general indigenous population in terms of ethnic identity, though it's likely they took wifes locally.

In Sumeria ores would first arrive at Bad Tibira to be smelted and then distributed to the artisan workshops in the numerous Cities, so they continued to control the supply but had widely distributed the expertise to produce craft goods.

There's plenty of evidence for what i suggested at Kanes as the basis for this model, but it was the case there that Assyrian merchants had Anatolian wifes at Kanes and Assyrian wifes back home, that they were only semi-naturalized to the region and maintaining a long distance trade connection at the end of numerous staging posts.



posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 11:44 AM
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How do they put a date on rock carvings?



posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 12:47 PM
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originally posted by: Signals
How do they put a date on rock carvings?


There are several ways to date a rock carving, if the carving was colored, you might be able to date the organic materials in the pigments. You can date concretions that form on the carving or you can date things such as the mud in a hornets nest( thats how some of the austrailian bradshaw rock paintings were dated). Or you can get clues from other cultural sources found nearby, such as pottery shards or lithic styles. The imagry or symbology will also give you a temporal window as well.



posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 07:51 PM
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originally posted by: St Udio
a reply to: Byrd

the style of the longboats, the Egypt reed boats, the Sea People boats all had a shared silhouette spanning many years... but those North Sea- Mediterranean constructions were very DISsimilar from Chinese Boats or Ships

so there was either a Cultural theme at play for the boat style to persist through time-space
or a shared construction diagram to copy from ?


Physics. Boats go through the waves better with a higher prow and stern (well, up to a point.) Same reason why they're long and pointed rather than circular (though there were circular boats.) Even canoes have a slightly higher prow and stern.

Humans aren't stupid.

In the case of Egyptian boats, it has to do with their use of reeds. Pulling the prow and stern up overcomes some structural problems when the reeds start to get soggy.

Each had different materials and different types of construction. The fact that they're scratched onto rock means little.

Think about the different ways humans are depicted in the rock art. You can't tell clothing, hair style, jewelry, decoration, shoes from any of the rock art. How can you claim anything about the boats other than they're kind of fish shaped and they float.



posted on Jan, 31 2017 @ 06:01 AM
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Dr. Thor Heyerdahl was convinced that Scandinavian culture had it's origins in Gobustan/Azerbaijan and in this article here he connects this to the Aesir and correlates with Azeri.


According to the saga, the Viking kings descended from Odin, an immigrant hierarch who came in a vessel called Skithblathnir which could be folded together like a cloth. Odin came from the land of the "Aser", and is, therefore, frequently referred to as "Asa-Odin".

The legendary land of the people known as Aser is given a very exact location in Snorre's saga as east of the Caucasus mountains and the Black Sea. From there, according to the same saga, Odin, owner of the foldable boat migrated with all his people northwestwardly through Russia, Saxland, and Denmark into Sweden where he died and lay buried in a huge funerary mound at Sigtuna.

Asa-Odin's saga with his boat and his itinerary has been considered by Nordic historians as a myth concocted in medieval times, although they consider the Nordic people as Caucasians. But, perhaps, Odin's boat may indicate that the land of the Aser really lay by the Caspian Sea east of the Caucasus. In fact, in the 5th century B.C., the Greek historian, Herodotus, described such marvelous foldable boats used precisely in the area referred to in Asa-Odin's saga as the home of the Aser, namely the land of the present day Azeri and Armenians.

In this area, Herodotus wrote, traveling merchants used boats built with a framework of wood and canes covered with skin, and of such great size that they carried one or more donkeys in addition to crew and cargo. They navigated down river to Babylonia where they sold their merchandise and the framework (wood), then they folded the skins and loaded them on the donkeys for their return upstream in preparation for the next voyage.


Regarding the meaning of the term Aesir it relates to Gods or Demi-Gods or life force.


Æsir is the plural of áss, óss "god" (genitive case āsir), which is attested in other Germanic languages, e.g., Old English ōs (gen. pl. ēsa) and Gothic anses "half-gods". Sanskrit ásu "life force", ásura "god"


Aesir


edit on Kam13130vAmerica/ChicagoTuesday3131 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 31 2017 @ 07:17 PM
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a reply to: punkinworks10

I don't know, sounds sketchy to me.



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 06:33 AM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
Dr. Thor Heyerdahl was convinced that Scandinavian culture had it's origins in Gobustan/Azerbaijan and in this article here he connects this to the Aesir and correlates with Azeri.




Unfortunately, Heyerdahl's claims of a 3000BCE homeland for Scandinavians in Azerbaijan has been shown to be completely wrong by modern genetics which shows that Scandinavian DNA dates back 22,000 years and he based his claim on some petroglyphs which are at most 5000 years old. Bit of an error that, 17,000 years, although true that during the last glacial maximum, most of what later became European lived in the middle east, the claim that there is a continuance of culture is laughable.

Its possible with time travel, forward from Scandinavia to Azerbaijan to pick up the local culture in 3000BCE and then jumping back 17,000 years to get to Scandinavia in time to settle, though I'm pretty sure that's not the solution, people with time machines don't tend to use reed boats lol



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 08:00 AM
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a reply to: Marduk

What he claimed wouldn't necessarily include all Scandinavians, all that can be suggested is that there was one group that could have migrated from that region through correspondence in Petroglyphs , Azerbaijan/Caspian shore is also a good candidate for Proto-European settlement during and following your last last glacial maximum with intense settlement in pre-historic times.

The Gobustan ship petroglyphs i sourced were dated 12,000-7,000 years BCE, which seemed early to me but i don't get to make the dates up, who says at most 5,000 years old?



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 08:58 AM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Marduk

What he claimed wouldn't necessarily include all Scandinavians, all that can be suggested is that there was one group that could have migrated from that region through correspondence in Petroglyphs , Azerbaijan/Caspian shore is also a good candidate for Proto-European settlement during and following your last last glacial maximum with intense settlement in pre-historic times.

The Gobustan ship petroglyphs i sourced were dated 12,000-7,000 years BCE, which seemed early to me but i don't get to make the dates up, who says at most 5,000 years old?


you missed the point
If the Petroglyphs don't date to 22,000 + years ago, then you need time travel to make Heyerdahl right.
Scandinavians original Pre Nordic haplogroup is I1, which means they are descended from cro magnons,, the first homo sapiens in Europe around 40,000 years ago, so you'd need really corresponding petroglyphs from that period. Some of the engravings do date to that time, but you are ignoring the multitude of other carvings and just focusing on the boats, which are reed boats. Not at all like the wooden hulled ships of Egypt, why even choose Egypt when you have Mesopotamia and their very long history of reed boats. Why not claim that the inhabitants of Tiahuanaco are their descendants, they also used identical looking boats. You are making a claim based on the similarity of boats known to be drawn by different artists, so there's a huge amount of cherry picking here. no mention at all of the petroglyphs of whales, dolphins, primitive men, animals, battle-pieces, ritual dances, bullfights, boats with armed oarsmen, warriors with lances in their hands, camel caravans, pictures of sun and stars

Pretty much anyone with any real knowledge here has told you this idea is nonsense and the fact that you're trying to use Heyerdahl as some form of evidence proves it. His claim was nonsense when he made it and only the Azerbaihan academy of science promotes it, not for science, but tourism.



posted on Feb, 1 2017 @ 09:45 AM
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a reply to: Marduk

So instead of answering a direct question you conjure up the most ludicrous host of strawmen imaginable, interspersed with over opinionated assumptions like they have to be reed boats just because you say so, just like the Egyptian longships had to be reed boats until it was realized otherwise.

None of what you state is even rational never mind backed up with evidence, the theme of this thread was the boats, i could hardly bring up every single petroglyph to have been carved in the previous 40,000 years, alright when you referred to the people with real knowledge here at least that was amusing and i feel crushed, though i'd trust the Azerbaijanis over them anyday...



posted on Feb, 2 2017 @ 07:59 AM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Marduk

So instead of answering a direct question you conjure up the most ludicrous host of strawmen imaginable,


The most ludicrous straw man imaginable, is actually your op, you are actually conjuring up a connection based on a petroglyph ...


You used to be credible, what happened ?


Oh and here's a paper on Azerbaijani Government corruption..
www.business-anti-corruption.com...

Glad to know that you have put your trust in something else you know absolutely nothing about..



posted on Feb, 2 2017 @ 09:57 AM
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a reply to: Marduk

Whoah the Azerbaijani Government is corrupt, i'm literally shaking!



posted on Feb, 2 2017 @ 10:26 AM
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originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Marduk

Whoah the Azerbaijani Government is corrupt, i'm literally shaking!



Its a common side effect of not having any common sense in your unproven hypothesis



posted on Feb, 2 2017 @ 01:50 PM
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Bravo as usual!

So synchronistically I was just reading about a petroglyph Sail boat carved into the back of the great Moai staues on Rapa Nui found after they were unburried...

I am curious why they are all depicted with a Cheshire like smile and the tick marks does it note the passengers and crew?


I keep falling asleep and forgetting the voyage, do you remember Kantz?...Perhaps they were Drawn to the Rhythm...


edit on pmbAmerica/ChicagovAmerica/ChicagoThu, 02 Feb 2017 14:03:04 -0600pm2America/Chicago by abeverage because: I like to edit for shiny coins



posted on Feb, 2 2017 @ 02:54 PM
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a reply to: abeverage

I think on the Gobustan and Scandanavian and Egyptian it can sort of vary, sometimes suggesting crew sometimes the oars, the two of course being directly related anyway, the Easter island example though looks like a triple masted Galleon complete with crew...



posted on Feb, 2 2017 @ 03:18 PM
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a reply to: Kantzveldt

Yes, I meant on the older glyphs you mentioned when you made the comparison to the people pulling the boat for a scale reference it made me curious as they again are depicted as tick marks.

The correlation with Easter Island was only observational and coincidental.
edit on pmbAmerica/ChicagovAmerica/ChicagoThu, 02 Feb 2017 15:19:11 -0600pm3America/Chicago by abeverage because: ticks and tocks



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 04:15 AM
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originally posted by: abeverage
a reply to: Kantzveldt

Yes, I meant on the older glyphs you mentioned when you made the comparison to the people pulling the boat for a scale reference it made me curious as they again are depicted as tick marks.


It has to do with the tools the artist had available... rocks and more rocks (if you'll forgive the levity.)

You can try the experiment for yourself... try depicting a modern sailboat on a rock by pecking (hammering) the design into a large rock with another rock. See for yourself how much detail you can get into it (and then try adding a person into the image.)




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