Trump VS the Robots

a reply to: SolAquarius

lol. And sorry - I feel the need to start another thread on this topic. One that's even more sensational. Will send you the link if/when I do it.

As I said earlier, I think this is the most important thread on this site - meaning it's the most important topic we can discuss. Time to ratchet up awareness another notch.

a reply to: soficrow

Crank it!

You are absolutely right. The jobs market is already savage, and will only come under greater pressure from automation over the next ten to fifteen years. The janitor is already threatened by the Roomba!

a reply to: TrueBrit

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but yeah, I am absolutely right.

We're in for a wild ride - and I'd say less than 10 years. Much is already happening here and abroad.

a reply to: soficrow

Hey, I am with you on this, one hundred percent. Not an ounce of sarcasm required or implied.

I was kidding about the Roomba, but the thing of it is, I was only kidding a LITTLE bit. Automated service robotics is something that has been around in science fiction for DECADES, and I am certain that there are people out there, designing buildings right now, which are, as much as possible, being conceptualised with automated cleaning and servicing mechanisms built in. Glass which eats the dirt that lands on it, subsumes it into its construction, meta-material flooring which, during low traffic periods, oscillates in order to push dust and dirt against its edges, there to be sucked up by either robots doing a circuit, or by vacuum stations on the skirting boards, before being deposited into collection bins in the basement via a series of pipes.

There are things coming on stream now which could make near enough all "unskilled" labour obsolete. It is both a fascinating and terrifying time to be alive.

a reply to: TrueBrit

...There are things coming on stream now which could make near enough all "unskilled" labour obsolete. It is both a fascinating and terrifying time to be alive.

Oh dear no - WAAYYYY more than "unskilled" labour is on the table for replacement - professions from law to accounting, doctors, even artists and musicians, computer programmers, you name it.


PS. Thanks.

I have more relevant news articles. This is an issue that is not to be ignored. The paradigm is about to shift and Technology will make it so that we lie down in green pastures. However, the transition getting there will be undoubtedly dark. It will happen in the next decade and end around 2040ish (from what I can predict).

Billionaires in the world's tech capital Silicon Valley are reportedly preparing for the apocalypse by buying underground bunkers, guns, ammo and motorcycles. Fearful that artificial intelligence will displace so many jobs that there will be a revolt against those responsible for the technology, the are entrepreneurs readying themselves for doomsday like scenarios. Reid Hoffman, the co-founder of the professional social network, LinkedIn, told The New Yorker that he believes more than 50 per cent of billionaires in the Californian tech hub are preparing for the worst.

www.independent.co.uk... ry


and

www.npr.org...

a reply to: soficrow

All Right here I go.I feel that with the ever increasing advances in technology we as humanity are standing before the future like a tree with many branches of probability some beautiful and some terrifying and it all depends on the choices we make as a species now.

I would like to start with the optimistic scenarios then jump to the pessimistic ones and maybe round it out somewhere in between.

First Off I see technology as neutral it can be used harm and hinder or heal and help. It all depends on how it is used and the intent behind it's use. When discoveries about the inner working of atoms were pursued it opened up the possibility for new sources of energy but the choice was to go with uranium fission and pursue the atom bomb and the atomic age began with a bang.

Ok "Ideally" I would like to see humanity move to a post scarcity society that frees us from manual labor and allows us to pursue science creativity and eventually space exploration . Where individuals are free to explore their creative potential beyond just being a cog in a financial machine. I see 3d printers as the beginning of that potential and as they advance we get closer to something like the replicators depicted in the Star Trek series. 3d printers are now capable of printing living tissue and even being designed to print molecules that are to the creators specification even houses are being made with 3d printers. 3dHouse I can only speculate that this field is going to advance.
If I had a 3d printer and I wanted a specific tool I would no longer need to go to the store and hope to find something that meet my needs. I could design how I needed it to be and print it. If 3d printing advances things like factories might become obsolete what use are factories if people are able to manufacture what ever they need on site to their specification? Industry would become something of the past.

I guess as steeping stone we would move to a universal basic income. I first heard about UBI on the Higher Side Chats and my initial reaction was oh it sounds like socialism nobody's going to except this but as I listened the guest made some compelling points. Now I admit I don't know enough about UBI to completely endorse it yet and need to do much more research but im am always open to unique and interesting ideas to the human condition. My optimistic side says it seems like a pretty good idea my pessimist side says no body will except it because it sounds like welfare or socialism and will be demonized or even worse if it is implemented it will be a disaster or could be another way to enslave people under some form of authoritarianism.

Now what I say next might be very unpopular and I don't see this happening any time soon in my life time. And I want to be clear I do not endorse current visions of what has been called the the NWO or any totalitarian world government vision. I hold disdain for the idea of a secret powerful elite creating wars or using deception to make a world government that is totalitarian and only benefits the elite. Nothing good for humanity can come of that.
But humanity will eventually have to band together in some sort of world Government and it is my hope that it is democratic respects human rights, free expression, and the liberty of the human spirit to create and reach for the stars.
I can not see nation states and super powers compete for resources forever it always leads to war and one of these wars will go hot or worse if technology is used to advance weaponry and create something even more horrible like weponized nano machines.

Now everything above is an Ideal situation. I know Utopian visions are a dime a dozen and often times they can seem great in concept but in practice they can become a nightmare. Maybe I'm just brainwashed into the hope that humanity can have some sugary sweet star trek like future and come together and have a planetary kumbaya moment. I had to indulge my inner humanitarian optimist.


Now on to indulging my inner pessimist.
Maybe I can see so many more potentials for these branches of the tree because the brains survival mechanisms are much more suited for thinking in terms of fearful outcomes. Accept its no longer is the fear of the tiger jumping out off the bush to eat me its the fear of the big bad AI assimilating me.

Back in the 90's I read the book Neuromancer and its eerie to see how many concepts presented in the book seem to be becoming reality. So many concepts from science fiction seem to be becoming present day realities.
I advise anybody to read sci-fi its a good primer for what soon could be and great way to explore political and social concepts in relationship to technology.
Neuromancer is genre of sci-fi called cyber punk I guess another example of cyber punk would be blade runner.
I feel the hallmark of cyber punk is that it is slightly dystopian and bleak.

Neuromancer had concepts like Competing AI's.
I see this as one possibility drones in the United states Military are becoming more autonomous and capable of acting on there own and im sure more and more sophisticated military computers will over see them and rely more and more on advancements of AI. If the computer prime directive was to defend the united states what if it took it too far say competing against a Chinese AI that over saw all their weapon drones and we humanity got caught up in the fray of two or more waring AI's? The terminator movie had the Idea of the millitary AI skynet going to far but that was just a mono AI not multiple competing or warring Ai's which could be a future possibility.
Machines playing out the worst characteristics of their creators?

In regard to automation If corporations continue on the old economic model yet embrace more and more automation in both manufacturing and the white collar positions I foresee an economic collapse and all the things that follow like civil unrest war doom ect. I don't see corporations giving in or giving up power any time soon they are like collective organism that want to survive.
Neuromancer had a sort corporate feudalism where corporations were the government and they controlled various regions.

Anouther scenario I could see is robots and computers become a servile class and develop enough self awareness to resent their masters and they rebel against us.



Now I could be wrong on all of the above. I have seen books that show predictions of the future from the 50's and they look absurdly silly on how wrong they were so with any future prediction it might just be like those books from the 50's take it with a grain of salt.
But one thing i'm sure the robots and early AI's are not only coming they are here and trend seems to be that they are getting more and more advanced. So keep an eye on technology keep an eye on robotics companies see where its going and try the best to make predictions based on whats happening in these fields.


Whew that took a lot out of me


Lastely if we have to deal with evil robots hope we got a Yoshima.

originally posted by: soficrow
a reply to: TrueBrit




even artists and musicians

This is the one irks me the most. I'm a creative type I draw make music ect. I can sit and nod my head about seeing robots replacing automation, driving, and desk jobs. But creativity I guess is a sacred cow to me and to see AI's engage in it makes me feel something primal a sort of feeling of revulsion like a machine should not touch that.

originally posted by: SolAquarius

originally posted by: soficrow
a reply to: TrueBrit




even artists and musicians

This is the one irks me the most. I'm a creative type I draw make music ect. I can sit and nod my head about seeing robots replacing automation, driving, and desk jobs. But creativity I guess is a sacred cow to me and to see AI's engage in it makes me feel something primal a sort of feeling of revulsion like a machine should not touch that.

I understand. But it's happening.

...Didn't Gibson predict it in one of his books? Or was that someone else?



Thanks for the post above btw. ...Starting a different thread on this topic momentarily - spent the better part of the day writing it.

a reply to: soficrow

I guess its the idea that creativity is some magical trait that humans have sure the machines can take everything else but surely we still have our creativity to make us unique.
nope.
......gives me a feeling of dread

There is an AI who studied the works of Rembrandt and prints out paintings on a 3d printer that look like new works by the Old Master.PCworld

shudder....

One of the effects will be that robot-made products will be technically perfect, and the corporations will charge like it. As fewer people work, many will resort to going low-tech. Growing and cooking their own food, making their own consumer goods etc.

In tandem with this, any object actually produced by human labor will become a valued work of art.

I already see this now. A friend bakes and sells home-made pies, from scratch; with a homemade lower crust and the upper crust is a woven lattice-work pastry. She uses 3 sweet apples and 3 tart ones in her apple pies. Her crusts were originally TOO perfect, and people suspected them of being store bought. So now she has an assistant make them, just a tad off center, and people pay $24 - $48 per pie!!!

if the trend of "artisnal living" expands, look to see human living in communal "intentional housing" co-ops, where they exchange labor without money, and hence without the need for jobs or tax-paying.... or expensive robots

a reply to: redempsh
So you think that things made by humans will have much more value then things made by machines? What if there was a future AI that was given the persona of an artist and it created works of art and beauty that no human could match? Would our stuff have value even if its shoddy in comparison? What if a computer was able to makeworks of music greater then Mozart or
Beethoven would are works of music have value?

originally posted by: SolAquarius
This is the one irks me the most. I'm a creative type I draw make music ect. I can sit and nod my head about seeing robots replacing automation, driving, and desk jobs. But creativity I guess is a sacred cow to me and to see AI's engage in it makes me feel something primal a sort of feeling of revulsion like a machine should not touch that.

Computers producing art is very natural. Art is all about logic systems, and making a piece internally consistent with itself. Arbitrary additions to a work of art tend to take away from it rather than add to it because they don't have meaning behind them. Therefore, since art is creative, and it is logical, it makes sense that logic is creative (and if you doubt this, start reading political opinions). Computers are pretty good at logic, therefore they are pretty good at creativity because it ultimately stems from the same skillset.

originally posted by: SolAquarius
a reply to: redempsh
So you think that things made by humans will have much more value then things made by machines? What if there was a future AI that was given the persona of an artist and it created works of art and beauty that no human could match? Would our stuff have value even if its shoddy in comparison? What if a computer was able to makeworks of music greater then Mozart or
Beethoven would are works of music have value?

If AI created fanciful paintings, it's art worth would be that of a print, which is cheap.... people are using computers to create paintings, the Chinese mass produce them very cheaply. The same with music, there is already software that creates Mozart style music. So it wouldn't be much different if AI was doing it.

It doesn't matter how great the art, it would be hard for AI to sell expensive art to humans.... just look how cheap prints are. It doesn't matter if AI can create originals, because it has the capacity to reproduce anything.

You know that saying "Buy American and Hire American" it would turn into "Buy From Humans, Hire Humans." Like legislation The Buy American Act..... I would bet there would be legislation confining AI in major food and factory jobs etc.

AI will have their purpose in science and medical, anything else would be a rise in opposition.

originally posted by: SolAquarius
a reply to: redempsh
So you think that things made by humans will have much more value then things made by machines? What if there was a future AI that was given the persona of an artist and it created works of art and beauty that no human could match? Would our stuff have value even if its shoddy in comparison? What if a computer was able to makeworks of music greater then Mozart or
Beethoven would are works of music have value?

It’s already happening. But I do believe we humans will have whatever place we take for ourselves. In the art world or out of it.

For example:

Artificial music: The computers that create melodies

Can computers compose beautiful, emotional music? Philip Ball discovers a new algorithmic composer challenging our ideas of what music itself should be.

[NOTE: The video is disconnected but 3 soundtracks remain.]

Abstract "Paintings" Created Entirely By A Computer

There is an artistic concept that the flaw is what points to perfection. A mole is beautiful on a beautiful woman's face because it completes her by humanizing her. Cindy Crawford.


I think there will be a cache for human made things, i.e. hand-carved crucifix made of olive wood from Israel. Hand-made shoes.

Like the hipster ideal of liking small-time musicians. The are not "too mainstream."' And are liked "because you've probably never heard of them."

I busker can make money playing a bamboo flute on the sidewalk. You can listen to free music 24/7 on the radio.... so why would anyone tip the flutist? Because he is an artisan, and artiste.

Robots will be perfect; they won't be artistes...

a reply to: SolAquarius

What's to prevent companies from coming back to the United States but only hiring technicians and programmers to run everything and have all the labor done by robots and basic AI software?

If there is no labor force getting paid because they have all been replaced by automation then who will have the money to purchase the goods manufactured?

You nail it here!

It's already happening - there are no jobs because there are no more jobs. They will not be coming back!

Best we all face reality, rethink our expectations and get on with some informed and intelligent planning.