Losing civilities not to offend Transgenders

a reply to: Freija

Perfect post

Thats why I am polite to all.. you never know the struggles of others or their truths. I dont choose my friends by who they screw.. I choose them by judging their character. Like you... Id have no problem with you and it wouldnt matter who youre screwing or not. People can connect with others.. even if they dont agree or understand the entire thing... and grow to respect and love them for much more than their "birth gender".

a reply to: kaylaluv

But until that trans has fully transitioned, don't you think there are a lot of mixed signals for everyone involved?

It's one thing when a transgender has done the full process and fully looks the part, and it's another when you find out that she (or he) isn't quite as advertised yet. It creates quite a bit of distress on all ends. I am guessing it's not a fun time for the trans either unless you have a true perv on your hands who gets off on making other people feel icky.

So until the process is fully complete, the private facility makes sense for everyone. After that, it shouldn't be an issue.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: ketsuko


Do you find the inherent premise of the men's andwomen's rooms to be discriminitory?

No, because all men who identify as men can go to the same place, and the same for women. But telling a trans female that she has to go to a bathroom separate from other females IS discriminatory.

While it may be discrimination, it's also discriminating against people who for genuine reasons are not comfy with someone pre-op being in the same bathroom/changing room - in the UK we have a 'level playing rule' approach where no rights are seen as more worthy than others to avoid discrimination - does the US not have similar?

a reply to: ketsuko

If the person is seriously making an attempt to project how would you know what they have underneath? I mean there are stalls, and no transwoman truly trying to project is gonna stand and pee. Why is it even your business?

If people are truly making an effort to project isn't it more uncomfortable for all involved for them to head to the bathroom they aren't mostly projecting as?

a reply to: bastion

We should, but it seems we don't.

Right now, the one who is in the perceived victim minority fighting the evil oppressor class receives all the benefits of the doubt.

It is political correctness run amok.

I don't want transgenders to feel uncomfortable, but I likewise don't think they should have their discomforts addressed in a manner that simply foists all of that discomfort off on the rest of society and tells us to suck it up. That, to me, seems more like taking revenge than righting any perceived slight or injustice.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: ketsuko

If the person is seriously making an attempt to project how would you know what they have underneath? I mean there are stalls, and no transwoman truly trying to project is gonna stand and pee. Why is it even your business?

If people are truly making an effort to project isn't it more uncomfortable for all involved for them to head to the bathroom they aren't mostly projecting as?

If you read back through the thread, you will see I am talking about locker rooms and changing rooms more than simply bathrooms. They are another type of public facility that gets ;lumped in with the bathroom rights.

a reply to: ketsuko

Locker rooms are uncomfortable when in the room with the same gender for a giant chunk of people. Not to mention all the horrible things that happen in locker rooms even when everyone is the same gender. Locker rooms are terrible places in general and I'm completely against how they are set up in general even if all the same cisgender.

People deserve to have their privacy respected, and be safe while changing. Locker rooms provide neither. Locker rooms are an issue simply by being what they are completely irrelevant of all this or should be, as locker rooms provide their own issue.

a reply to: ketsuko



Dammit, in an hour I leave to go to the gym.. and Im not going to be able to NOT look to see if anyone is in the locker room with me.. that has a beard.

I stand with the things Puppylove has said very well.

Where the problem comes in for most people, I think, is knowing the difference from someone that is "truly trans" as she puts it and those that are not. Directed mainly at Ketsuko, you aren't going to see someone in a locker room waving their male parts around that genuinely believes themselves to be a woman. That sort of defies the whole point.

By the same token, there's no such thing as a female penis as much as some would want you to believe so.

This doesn't deny the fact that some do believe this or feel that it is appropriate to invade female only spaces displaying their "shenis" because they "identify" as a woman. These people aren't trans in the classical sense. They're just troublemakers obviously high on male privilege that are really hurting the needs of "real" trans people.

I don't have answers for what to do about perceived problem other than to say these are isolated incidents and happen very rarely. In cases where this has happened, they've been blown wildly out of proportion by the anti-trans agenda. Bathrooms on the other hand, have private stalls and inappropriate behavior, peeping, indecent exposure, etc., are already against the law.

Gawd, I hate this #.

a reply to: Puppylove

I think this is all very well if you are fortunate to have physical characteristics that allow this. What about transgender females who continue to have strong male characteristics after transitioning? They obviously cannot hide their transition and live as the opposite sex undetected. From my experience it is these individuals that receive the most intimidation and ridicule.

Here is a picture of Claire Birkenshaw, a head teacher who came out recently after having transitioned in my home town.



I think Claire is very brave coming out publicly. My home town is very insular and slightly backward when it comes to LGBT issues. In fact the school in which she teaches is in a very rough area. There is no attention-seeking just empathy and the opportunity to act as a role model to children with gender dysphoria.

Hope this doesn't come across as condescending. I enjoy reading you posts.

Hull's transgender headteacher Claire Birkenshaw wants to be role model in community

To the OP: Its just overkill by overly enthusiastic academic types in senior managerial roles. I agree with Abysha. As a homosexual male I don't get offended when asked if I have a girlfriend or if I am married. This also applies the other way. If you are offended by the mere sight of LGBT then you really need to be introspective and address your frail coping mechanisms.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: kaylaluv

But until that trans has fully transitioned, don't you think there are a lot of mixed signals for everyone involved?

It's one thing when a transgender has done the full process and fully looks the part, and it's another when you find out that she (or he) isn't quite as advertised yet. It creates quite a bit of distress on all ends. I am guessing it's not a fun time for the trans either unless you have a true perv on your hands who gets off on making other people feel icky.

So until the process is fully complete, the private facility makes sense for everyone. After that, it shouldn't be an issue.

What is "fully trasitioned"? If you are implying genital reconfiguration i.e. a "sex change" or sex reassignment surgery, know that the vast majority of even the people that are truly trans do not undergo these procedures. 18 states don't even require SRS to change gender markers on birth certificates so don't assume "fully transitioning" means what you think it means. It is different for everyone.

Also consider that for trans women, using the men's bathroom is more than just being uncomfortable, it is dangerous and much more likely to end in assault or violence than a trans woman using the woman's bathroom so exactly who are "bathroom bills" trying exactly to "protect"?

a reply to: Morrad

I said if they are clearly making an attempt and putting an effort in. Not everyone can pass, but everyone can clearly make an attempt to as much as possible, and those that are clearly trying should have their efforts respected.

If anyone ever corrected me on this, I would simply say,
"It took you how long to know what gender you are??? Don't expect me to know in the first couple seconds."

a reply to: Puppylove

Apologies. I was thinking out loud. It was not directed at your comments. Just an observation, based on an attitude I have seen from some ignorant folks ie you look male so I will ridicule you in an attempt to delegitimize you. I just remember a friend (transgender female) who looked absolutely stunning after transitioning and was able to live the life of a female undetected. Its a real shame that individuals with male characteristics like Claire in my post above can't live in the same way (undetected).

a reply to: Morrad

It is a shame. Is why I pushed specifically for attempt as much as possible, because for many passing is an elusive dream. That being said, even if a person cannot pass, if they are clearly putting their hearts effort into it, and it clearly means that much to them for taking that effort, anyone who refuses to respect that effort is an ass.

I don't care whether a person agrees with them or not, the effort and care by itself is enough their needs should be respected.

That said, if one cares so little about their gender identity they're not willing to put any effort into actually putting that identity forward, it's unreasonable to expect people to have any respect for that identity, as they've clearly demonstrated that they do not.

Now that being said there are different levels of living in ones gender identity with different comfort levels. Some never go out into the world living their gender identity. They leave the house they put on the mask people expect them to wear for the body they were born with, then when they get home get to be themselves. Different people need more escapes to get along psychologically. For some simply escaping into a female persona online is enough. Some playing a female in role playing games, and some need to go all the way.

But no matter what way you go, you need to respect that in the route you go, you get what you put into it or should anyway. The person who only ever projects online as female is being unreasonable if they then leave the house with a full beard, and a wife beater proudly displaying their excess chest hair, and ask people to call them Nancy, refer to them as Miss, and not question them walking into the woman's rest room.

I really enjoyed both Puppylove and Freija's posts.

I personal don't care what anyone identifies with on their gender, sexuality, race, etc. I am human, and I have stereotypes, but I honestly try to judge everyone by their actions. I have never had any close transgenders friends, but it wouldn't bother me in the least.

I guess I will tell a little story here about my personal life.

I have lived in a heavily rural area my whole life. I am 32. When I graduated highschool, I wouldn't say I was a homophobe, but I made gay jokes, and it would have certainly been scary to come out in my school.

About 4 years after I graduated I saw a friend of mine from back in the day at the bar. We were close until like 8th grade and then we still were friends but didn't really hang out. So we were hanging out, and after reminiscing, he told me that he was gay (which at this point I had found out post highschool) and that he was afraid if he told me in highschool I would have no longer been friends with him. This made me do a lot of reflecting on my life.

As I grew older, I realized I could care less about someones sexuality. I have many gay friends. Now I don't trreat them special or anything, I make fun of them as they do me. And I can honestly say every friend I have had that isn't heterosexual just wanted to be treated the same. I don't have to watch my language around them, or be someone other than myself. In fact, laughing at each other is one of the best ways I have found to connect to people with differences.

So that is where I come from. To me a persons gender or sexuality isn't who they are, its just one part of the puzzle that makes them up. And even if its against a religion you belong to, my feeling is I sin all of the time. My role in this world is to be as good a person as possible to all people; let those big decisions up to God.

Now I also have met people that want to shove their sexuality in your face and want to rabble rouse and make a stink. Often times as puppylove and Frieja have said these are not even trans or gay people, they are just people that desire attention. I have no time of day for these people.

As far as issues such as laws about bathrooms and things, I think they are complicated issues like abortion, where both sides make good points. I personally do not care who uses the restroom next to me, but I understand people on all sides do have feelings on this. Laws attempting to control the use of language however, I am vehemently against.

So I think its ok to have an opinion on what the law should be on these things, while still respecting individuals that may disagree with my beliefs.

Oh and I wanted to add this. Many of the "good old boy" people around my town have really relaxed on judging people based on sexuality. There are definitely still crude jokes, but I can honestly say that around the local clubs and bars people are openly gay and no one really cares too much.

To me it is a really a great thing that even small towns like my own are starting to not judge people by things like race or sexuality.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Advantage

Sorry, but I do mind sharing when it comes to that.

Look, the reason we are told that we cannot force transgendered people to use the bathrooms that correspend to their biological sex is that it makes them feel uncomfortable.

Well, sorry, but when I see a person of the opposite biological sex who is not my husband naked in the same room with me, it makes me as uncomfortable as these transgenders say they are to have to be in the other room naked with people who share their biological sex.

Now, I canempathize with their discomfort, so I don't think they should be in that room; however, because they have that discomfort, I expect them to empathize with MY discomfort and understand why the solution might not be to subject all the other women (or men) to that same feeling they claim to be feeling in the interests of selfishly absoling their own personal discomforts.

Perhaps the proper answer is a private facility?

I disagree transgenders necessarily experience the exact same thing.

Is it a concern of gender identity or how a person looks on the outside? Is your discomfort more sourced in sexual attraction? They're male, like your husband, and have male characteristics attracted you to your husband. You don't like to be exposed to that, it's a breach of your private space.

But consider homosexual males have long used the men's bathroom. They're also attracted to men, but do they ever complain?

For some it might be more sourced in gender identity. So you want to share the lockerroom with others who gender identify the same as you. It has nothing to do with what they look like on the outside. A good example might be if you're a human and you're forced to use a bathroom with mostly chimpanzees. You want to use a bathroom with other humans because you feel like your human identity is ignored. It might be also the bathroom facilities are unfriendly to humans.

It could be both too. So maybe you're a male2female transgender still disagreeably stuck in male bathroom and you happen to also be sexually attracted to males. The attraction adds to the discomfort.

Consider a homosexual male using hte men's bathroom. Not only is he attracted to other men, but his mind is similar to a female:
www.newscientist.com - Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex...

So shouldn't homosexuals be the ones who complain? They're attracted to their gender and their brain resembles the opposite. They should be hollering to use the opposite bathroom. This is probably because they have no desire to transition for varying reasons. They're so accustomed to using the bathroom assigned to them their attraction to the same doesn't bother them anymore. Perhaps this hints sexual attraction--as a complaint--can be overcome. But this also assumes homosexuals weren't harmed at anytime. It might be--given a choice--homosexuals would choose to use the opposite Xroom.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: ketsuko

If the person is seriously making an attempt to project how would you know what they have underneath? I mean there are stalls, and no transwoman truly trying to project is gonna stand and pee. Why is it even your business?

If people are truly making an effort to project isn't it more uncomfortable for all involved for them to head to the bathroom they aren't mostly projecting as?

If you read back through the thread, you will see I am talking about locker rooms and changing rooms more than simply bathrooms. They are another type of public facility that gets ;lumped in with the bathroom rights.

And that's the shame of it all. Aside from being segregated by gender, restrooms and locker rooms have nothing in common. Conflating them into the same issue is why everybody gets heated.

If you think transfolk should be allowed to use the correct bathroom, it's automatically assumed you also want penises waving around in the women's locker room. Likewise, if you say you don't think there should be penises in the women's locker room, it's automatically assumed you want transfolk to get get assaulted in the bathrooms. Two totally different issues.

a reply to: Puppylove

I'm not going to pretend what you say is wrong, but let's not also pretend that this issue doesn't compound those problems and add to them, either.

a reply to: Abysha

But the thing is that the issue WAS conflated by the activists.

Do you think the first kid who wanted to the privileges was wanting just to pee in the same bathroom? No. They wanted to change in the same locker rooms too. And then the administration conflated all of this with Title IX which demands now that a person must have access to all the facilities they think they should use -- that includes locker rooms and changing rooms along with bathrooms.

So don't blame this on anyone other than the activists.