Will the europeans ever be powerful?

Originally posted by st3ve_o
seems we both posted that at (01:56 AM) if i knew you was going to make a post i wouldn't have made my last reply

anyway later

Thats 2:56 and its PM!!!!!

Later on man.



[edit on 022828p://0402pm by semperfoo]

Originally posted by semperfoo

Originally posted by st3ve_o
seems we both posted that at (01:56 AM) if i knew you was going to make a post i wouldn't have made my last reply

anyway later

Thats 2:56 and its PM!!!!!

Later on man.



[edit on 022828p://0402pm by semperfoo]

Depend's on your settings. Mine say's 0756 for the pair of you....

Well I was being sarcastic. The whole "the most annoying ppl on the face of the earth comment"...and.. Well I guess it wasnt that funny..

Originally posted by semperfoo
Then you didnt bother to read the whole article then. It had alot about europe in it.

Europe’s population has developed new tendency to shrink, Science study reports
www.eurekalert.org...

The EU's baby blues
news.bbc.co.uk...

There are issues with the birth rate's, that I haven't denied. What I did doubt was the actual population's shrinking buy anything close to that which is mentioned in those articles. Our people are living longer and longer and the problem is not population shrinkage, but rather the fiscal problem of having so many wrinklies not working (retired) and not enough youngster's paying tax to cover the pensions and healthcare.

But measures are in place in many EU countries that are already bearing fruit. From the time that BBC article was written to about two week's ago, French incentives have boosted the birth rate from 1.9/woman to around 2.7. Other countries have similar initiatives.

Originally posted by semperfoo
As for staying on the topic here.. Will the europeans ever be powerful? In what sense?
This is a qoute from what I posted earlier. "Democratic Israel or Taiwan means nothing to them; indeed, democracy is increasingly becoming the barometer by which to judge European hostility. Cuba, China, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah — not all that bad; the United States, Taiwan, and Israel, not all that good."

Not entirely sure what your hinting at with that quote, so I apologise...

Originally posted by semperfoo
Europe will need a strong military that is as strong or stronger then the Americas. The EU counts on Americas military capabilities way to much. Not its own... Though they do have some decent armed forces, still, they dont compare to the likes of americas military.. And probably never will. Countrys like the UK dont need to worry about a strong military. Chances are if you attack them your going to get the 800lb gorilla on your ass (the US). So this is why most european countrys dont worry about a capable military. They are under ameicas nuclear umbrella. They are comfortable with the status qou.

We have our own nukes, so we don't have to live "under your umbrella". However, it is always beneficial to be friends with the big boy on the block and your troops do add to the local economies in which they are stationed. I don't have a problem with them being here, we're allies after all. If you want to leave, go right ahead though, I don't mind either way. We'll be fine. After all, the only one's who stand a chance at beating europe in a War are the USA, so who have we got to fear?

Originally posted by semperfoo
So I think Europes influence is starting to retract. Its shrinking...Europe is a bit past its prime. And as stated by the CIA if the EU doesnt get its sh*t together then the "EU" wont be around for too long.

Believe it or not I dont get my jollys off to that either...

Ah, well, the CIA say's so, then it must be true.....

Tell me, have you even ever been to europe? It's just that you all seem to have this "thing" about the EU collapsing, doom and gloom all around, but if you actually come to Europe and travel around, you won't find any evidence for it, barring a minor inconvenience of having too many old people in 2050 (too many old people at any time could be considered to be an inconvenience ).

I suspect it is retalliation for the rash of "USA bankrupt" type threads that get thrown around alot. I don't wish for that situation either.

So why don't we stop this silly wang measuring, for starter's we're supposed to all be friends and secondly, it's like comparing Apples and oranges anyway. I don't understand the "American Way" and it all seems rather odd to me, but I guess the situation is the same in reverse. The lack of understanding breed's ignorance and suspicion between the way's we do things. That's not good.

posted by ape
hmm, what say you about the mosques in the UK ? the largest so called 'moderate' mosque was exposed as a place to preach hate and jihad, you have terror bombings in spain and in london which was homegrown... riots in france... the US has not been attacked since 9/11 and your own country stopped a potential terror attack on the US with that whole airline bust in july of 06. wake up please we need to check these muslims

What about them? They can preach all they like, but they can't do anything. They're watched like hawks and to be honest, Muslim terrorist's are the world's most inept, useless, dis-organised bunch of misfit's ever to plan a bombing.

One attack in how long? They can't even make a bomb that work's half the time. The 21st July bombs went *fizz" and made a funny smell.

The Irish maintained weekly, or even daily, attacks for 30 years! They killed far more people and were well organised. Yet we didn't have the "Oh no, soon we'll be a Catholic state run by Ginger psycho's from the emerald Isle...." did we? Jeebus, you Yanks really need to get past this whole "Muslim hating" thing you've all got. So what, they detonated a few bombs in, what now, 6 years since 9/11. More often than not, they fail in everything they do. We're not afraid of them, we have no need to be afriad of them.

Even if EVERY Muslim (man woman AND child) rose up tommorrow, they would be outnumbered 37-1...

Oh no.... Run for the Hills!!!!

Muslims? Useless bunch of bugger's. Would find it hard to blow up a bomb in a bomb making factory....

Originally posted by semperfoo
Well I was being sarcastic. The whole "the most annoying ppl on the face of the earth comment"...and.. Well I guess it wasnt that funny..

Ahh, the American sense of humour....... hehe

Only jesting fella....

You are joking, aren't you Stu?

Having been accused in print of being somebody else, to my detriment I might add, I bashed off a very scarcastic yet humouress little U2U to Semperfoo and to date, I have not had a reasonable excuse as to why he, she or it slandered me.

I even said that I would locate the rock he, she or it lives under and would squash said person with my size 10 Large BCH but WOW!

Said person threw a Mini Wobbly, thought I was being serious.

Still no apaology and no retraction. I think that's one for the Mods.

But wait! He's a Yank and the Mods don't like us ganging up on the Yanks!

Ah! Poor babies!

Originally posted by fritz
You are joking, aren't you Stu?

Having been accused in print of being somebody else, to my detriment I might add, I bashed off a very scarcastic yet humouress little U2U to Semperfoo and to date, I have not had a reasonable excuse as to why he, she or it slandered me.

I even said that I would locate the rock he, she or it lives under and would squash said person with my size 10 Large BCH but WOW!

Said person threw a Mini Wobbly, thought I was being serious.

Still no apaology and no retraction. I think that's one for the Mods.

But wait! He's a Yank and the Mods don't like us ganging up on the Yanks!

Ah! Poor babies!

Now this part got me laughing. Babies? Talk about a contradictory statement. Whos the one going to old threads and using rather weak smack (if you wish to call it that) about something that I thought was done and over with? You and stevo sounded similiar in your views. Stevo accused me of being someone else (ape). It was all in fun and not aimed at you individually. As I said in our little U2U, I thought anyone with common sense would know my whole comment was in just while poking some fun at stevo. Thats if you bothered to read the whole comment.

Just so ppl know what we are talking about this is what you said to me if you were to get banned by going to a mod to "tell on me".

However, if I were to run to a moderator - who I might add, I detest with a passion, I would be banned for wasting their precious and valuable time.

No mate. I would simply track you down to whatever rock you live under, whipp off said rock and squash you with size 10 Large Army boots, providing I can scrape up the dish for a passport and plane ticket.

Your so called "humorous" comment about your size 10 boot yada yada yada, was countered by my "humorous" size 16 comment. Something that evidently flew squarely over your head for the second time in a row. You accuse me of misinterpreting your u2u to me but you contradict yourself by misinterpreting my comment about stevo and you being one in the same. You bull#ted a bull#ter and you got # on your shoes. what more did you expect? My advice to you would be not to dish out what you cant take. It will only make you look like the stupid ass that you have portrayed yourself as thus far.

Cant take it. Go tell mommy and daddy (mods) like a good boy/girl.. Theres always that option. Stop threatening, and making excuses that, that is what you are going to do and just #ing do it already! (you could if you wanted to.) Or you can choose to simply ignore me. The owners of this site were gracious enough to give the ppl like you with your inferiority problems the ability to ignore those they cant argue with. This website is not my life as it is to some ppl here. So I could give a flying # less about what a bunch of ppl who I will never meet think about me and or say about me. I dont take you seriously and never have. So dont flatter yourself.



[edit on 033131p://3203pm by semperfoo]

OKay Semperfoo.

I begrugingly admit you do have a point but, I got what I wanted, thank you very much. Aimed at you specifically old chum? Well not really.

It was aimed at all those rather absurd little babies who think you Yanks are the real deal, you know, the all singing, all dancing, 'We're the best in the World' sort of people. I used to think that, but like the Israelis, you've fallen from grace.

Anyway, what sort of person keeps old U2Us for Gods sake? What a sad little world we all live in! (I delete mine after 3 days)

Never knew that they could come in handy like that Semperfoo. Good point, well scored!

Originally posted by fritz
OKay Semperfoo.

I begrugingly admit you do have a point but, I got what I wanted, thank you very much. Aimed at you specifically old chum? Well not really.

what the hell are you on? did your last post not have my #ing name in it?
I think if anything there are "babies" on BOTH sides here.

It was aimed at all those rather absurd little babies who think you Yanks are the real deal, you know, the all singing, all dancing, 'We're the best in the World' sort of people. I used to think that, but like the Israelis, you've fallen from grace.

the real deal? By that do you mean the richest most powerful nation on the face of the earth?! And "fallen from grace" by that you mean public opinion about the US is at an all time low? Delve into that a bit more if you would like.. I dont claim that america is great. We have our own problems just as any other nation does. We arnt perfect by any means. The only difference between the US and any other nation is that we cant take so much as a # without the rest of the world complaining about the smell. Maybe you hate that america always gets the publicity? We're that rich preppy no good POS jock that is constantly getting laid, while your the kid who sits in the library reading his books staring at the wall... Anyways.. life goes on.

Anyway, what sort of person keeps old U2Us for Gods sake? What a sad little world we all live in! (I delete mine after 3 days)

Certainly not you...What am I supposed to be, impressed? Hey thats your life, if your happy with it good for you. I have more important # to do with mine besides planning my days around scheduled events such as "when will be the next time I decide to delete my old u2us?". See how NOT cool that sounds?

Unlike you I dont take this site seriously. what did I say before? This site is not my life. so I dont make it as such. I couldnt care any more or less.









[edit on 073131p://3103pm by semperfoo]

I think we've probably gone off on a tangent here a bit....

Perhaps to steer this back on topic, maybe Semperfoo you could respond to my last post addressing your points you raised?

Might help avoid the bikering that has re-emerged here.

stu theres not much to argue about. You brought up some good points.
I honestly hope the CIA is wrong. But I do see the EU and US slowly turning away from one another. I dont think the CIA is far off in their assessment in regards to that.

Semperfoo, may I ask you a serious question?

After the WMD fiasco and I hope you'll agree with me that it was a fiasco, why do you Americans take such stock in what the CIA says?

As a Brit, I view all intelligence about WMD coming from MI5/6 or whoever with a great big pinch of salt.

I believe that the intelligence agencies have their own agendas and axes to grind and simply put, just who DO you believe?

Originally posted by fritz
Semperfoo, may I ask you a serious question?

After the WMD fiasco and I hope you'll agree with me that it was a fiasco, why do you Americans take such stock in what the CIA says?

As a Brit, I view all intelligence about WMD coming from MI5/6 or whoever with a great big pinch of salt.

I believe that the intelligence agencies have their own agendas and axes to grind and simply put, just who DO you believe?

Sure it was a fiasco. BUt that doesnt change the fact that ntelligence agency's all around the world were saying the same thing which was that saddam had WMD's. Saddam never helped his case either by restricting UN inspections to only a certain few known facilitys. Was war needed? To be honest, it never should have came to this in the first place. Saddam should have been taken out in Gulf war 1. That job wasnt complete the first time around. Shame on us...

And no I dont take everything that the CIA says as "the word". I think your right to a degree that they have their own agendas. But I dont think theyre entirely wrong in their assessment of Europe. They do give Europe a fighting chance as long as proper reform is followed. The problem with the EU is they cant decide with one another on anything.

Yup Semperfoo, you're right, of course.

In the good but bad old days of the Warsaw Pact where commonality was the order of the day, we in the West had NATO or OTAN (as the French called it)

NATO much like the EU now, could never agree on anything and commonality was the Holy Grail which, in my opinion, would and could never be realised, as long as each country acted as individuals.

If only they had fully grasped with open hands, Spock's Vulcan philosophy that the 'needs of the many outweighed the needs of the one', then we could have stood a chance and would probably be stronger today.

But as it was, the Iron Lady together with Mr Raegan bankrupted Russia and the Warsaw Pact with apparently, Star Wars and associated research.

Yet, even though the Cold War is long gone, we still have not acheived the common goal for the common good.

Commonality!

Yes we have the Common Market or EU, but we are all small fish in a very big pond, each swimming his or her own way.

Things will not change for the better. There is a Constitutional crisis brewing. France and Germany are determined to get the Constitution back on the agenda in spite of, or because of, it's rejection by other member states.

Germany in my opinion, is determined to gain the major power base in Europe through the back door after her two failled attempts to do so using her military.

France will go along because that is what she does best - collaborating with whoever is the strongest and besides, by doing so, she protects her take from the Common Agricultural Policy.

I think that in the end, we Brits should go it alone.

My reason for saying this? Well at present, only the UK is undertaking combat operations in Afghanistan or Iraq. The UK for whatever reason, bears the brunt of military spending and maintaining forces in NATO for the common good, but for so little return.

I think it's time to cut our losses and look after ourselves.

Ben, Us Europeans are powerful, power is not alone judged by military prowess. The EU will continue to grow and will become far greater once the UK severs its ties with the US which I would personally like to see.

Our own movement towards greater EU integration would accelerate other countries wishing to join, which in the long run will mean a more stable and formidable market place, plus the overall military strenght will be much improved.

The EU has no need for the US military on its soil and never has, the cold was a US/Russia thing and not European one.

The question you may want to ask yourself is why does the US want to join with Canada and Mexico, the US Goverment know this is the only way the US will be able to survive in the future.

Facing the EU and the Russia/China world markets is something it cannot do on its own.

I hear ya fritz.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
The EU has no need for the US military on its soil and never has, the cold was a US/Russia thing and not European one.

I actually agree with the troop part. Its time to bring our boys home.. However it was very much a "european problem" Perhaps if it wasnt for the US military umbrella over much of europe, you would be speaking russian by now?

The question you may want to ask yourself is why does the US want to join with Canada and Mexico, the US Goverment know this is the only way the US will be able to survive in the future.

There is nothing that supports a North American Union coming to pass. I havent seen any substantial evidence of such a monstrosity forming in north america. Just paranoid here say on this conspiracy site..

Facing the EU and the Russia/China world markets is something it cannot do on its own.

To take a page out of your own book. The EU was formed to be more competitive with the US (its failing as they do not have the unity that the US has) So It was the EU which was formed in order to "survive" in a future dominated by the US.

Also I should mention that the EU economy has a rather STAGNANT growth rate when compared to Americas economic growth rate which is about 3.5% a year, which is tops among other "developed nations". Which is no easy feat. The US economy is strong and will only get stronger once we switch to the fairtax. Chinas economy will fizzle out by 2015 if they dont become a democracy. They will either become a democracy by then or they will experience an economic growth rate not much faster then that of the US. (china will be where america was in 1960 in the year 2010) China is just competition, which we are currently blowing away.

And what do you have to say about the European study that has estimated that the EU economy is only as developed as the US economy was 22 years ago? Note that this does not even include the newest, poorer members of the EU like Romania and Bulgaria, which would drag down the EU stats even further. Furthermore, (like I have already touched up on) the EU has a growth rate slower than that of the US, guaranteeing that the gap will continue to widen.

Study: EU Economy 22 Years Behind U.S.
www.businessweek.com...

and before you spout your rhetorical rhetoric about it being american propaganda, this was done by a European study group.


[edit on 093131p://5403pm by semperfoo]

I think in a military sense it doesn´t really matter. If there was a mega war between and big nuke owning blocks, then the world would be a wasteland anyway. NO ONE WINS!!

How about you guys reminded yourselves that the EU is not a unified state and will never be?

If we are talking about INDIVIDUAL European states, then the answer is: conditionally.

That means that European states will be powerful if they strengthen their militaries*. That could be done easily, because the money is available - it just needs to be donated to the European militaries instead of being wasted on bureaucrats, social benefits, clownish universities etc.

So yes, the armed forces of European states can be strengthened - IT JUST NEEDS TO BE DONE. However, few European politicians are willing to do so.

*This is important because whether a state is powerful or not depends solely on its military. That is because the strongest one always wins.

[edit on 10-4-2007 by INeedHelp]

INeedHelp, you are correct in what you are saying.

However, you forget that we have [at least in name] the European Economic Community or EEC.

The be-all and end-all of the EEC, is a unified Europe. Politically, Militarily and Economically, all governed by an American style president, from that most beurocratic of countries, Belgium.

The Treaty of Marstricht has yet to be ratified by many of the member countries. This shows that whilst the politicos are ready for a unified Europe, we the people, are far from happy with the way this thing is being thrust down our throats.

I for one, do not want to subsidize French or German farmers with the Common Agricultural Policy.

I don't want our servicemen and women to be at the beck and call of countries who do not have the balls to send their own forces into harms way.

I think I am personally, at the tip of a very big iceberg. Millions of people across Europe think like me.

And therein INeedHelp, lies the problem.

We keep getting told it's in our best interests for Europe to get together while in reality, it will only help the rich to get richer whilst the poorer in our society, is forgotten and thrown on the dung heap.

Fritz: we can (and should) withdraw from the EU.

Regarding European militaries once again, it is neccessary that those which now consist of conscripts are professionalised. You can't win wars if your military isn't professional because what are your soldiers going to do? Fire their rifles which they have previously fired only once? Drive tanks which they have never driven before? Unless the required service time is extended by 10 years, those soldiers may as well already dig their graves.

[edit on 22-4-2007 by INeedHelp]