Will the europeans ever be powerful?

HOLY CRAP! long thread here.

Its stupid to start throwing insults and stupid crap around like America vs Europe or the EU. We don't see eye to eye and probably never will but i don't think we will goto war with each other. Im living in Canada now, montreal to be exact and if their attitude is anything like Europeans, we won't get along. When they find out im American, they go out of their way to try to prop up their own country and tell me how their country is better and even had a dumb 18 year old in the Canada reserve tell me his country is better militarily than the US. I love the brits/aussies even canucks, cool guys and stick by our side most of the time.

I think the brits have the worlds second best military, equipment, etc. Its beneficial that America and the UK stay brothers in most endeavours and i don't consider the UK part of Europe.

Europe as a whole if they overcome their nationalism and differences could be very powerful as one, but i don't see it happening anytime soon its touchy for a bunch of nations to kind of give away their rights for one govt so to speak. They have NATO and i think thats enough, what more could you need? Europe isn't under threat by anyone except Iran.

The one thing i notice though is people thinking the US is done underestimating them, which is fine don't let the media fool you if the US as a whole was ever under attack we would unite in common cause just like any other nation. Im gonna have to say whoever said european armies are trained better than battle hardened American soldiers is smoking some good jamiacan weed

Poland having a strong military But EU countries thinking that they are so more advanced and better than the US is even more. I know people love to see the top dog get knocked out, its human nature. I know i hated the Dallas cowboys when they kept winning the Superbowl and im from Philly so you know the hate was real! Being the worlds only superpower means, your damned if you do and damned if you don't.

The US told the EU to handle Iran and 4 years later, we got nowhere! Eu says we are referring them to the useless corrupted UN for sanctions, you know Iran is shivering in their boots now. I want the US to step down and let the EU continue to handle this matter and if need be, follow up with military action, that would prove to me that the EU is a force to be reckoned with.

The one thing i notice though is people thinking the US is done underestimating them, which is fine don't let the media fool you if the US as a whole was ever under attack we would unite in common cause just like any other nation. Im gonna have to say whoever said european armies are trained better than battle hardened American soldiers is smoking some good jamiacan weed

Really? You must be looking at pre Iraq and pre Afghanistan deployments. Even during the Falkland Campaign [where those sneaky little Argentinians 'stole' the islands] we Brits proved our mettle.

Apart from the Argentinian conscripts, the few regular army officers and SNCOs, our lads were up against enemy SF and also half a dozen or so, ex-USMC snipers. (I'm not going to go into that. Those who knew them, now mourn 'em. After all - Mess with the Best and you'll Die like the rest!)

The Falkland Campaign proved once and for all, that the spirit of the Great
British 'Tommy' was alive and well - living in the Gurkhas, Marines and Paras and Welsh Guards. Even HRH, the Prince Andrew proved himself a man.

We Brits are the most battle hardened servicemen in the world. Apart from Kosovo, Croatia, Sierra Leone, Rawanda, where we were on peace keeping duties, I would like to remind our friends from across the pond, that we were fighting terrorism [that you Yanks supported with money and weapons] long before anybody even thought about attacking you at home or abroad.

Almost every unit served not less than 9 months in Northern Ireland and some units served anything up to 18 or 24 and in a couple of cases, 36 month tours were common.

Add to that a couple of low intensity wars, a couple of rebellions and I can say, hand on heart, that we Brits have only lost one war in the last couple of hundred years. That one, was the War of Independence.

But hey! Who the hell keeps scores?!

Sorry, but with the likes of an incomplete Disneyland Paris (or Euro Disneyland), no Universal Studios over in Germany, the stalled French nuclear initiative by stopping at the borders of France, and the still broken British Empire all pretty much means that Europe will forever remain only as a continent. It is bizzare of how it is with the cold war projects because once the Euro Fighter is done and over with the once technological stalwart will quickly be replaced by the brand new Muslim world that will be, a rapidly catching-up-India, and the already hugely relevant nation of China. To sit on what they have accomplished is simply put foolish as they need to keep the focus on efficiency all the way as opposed to celebrating every accomplishment.

Originally posted by risitar
Sorry, but with the likes of an incomplete Disneyland Paris (or Euro Disneyland), no Universal Studios over in Germany, the stalled French nuclear initiative by stopping at the borders of France, and the still broken British Empire all pretty much means that Europe will forever remain only as a continent. It is bizzare of how it is with the cold war projects because once the Euro Fighter is done and over with the once technological stalwart will quickly be replaced by the brand new Muslim world that will be, a rapidly catching-up-India, and the already hugely relevant nation of China. To sit on what they have accomplished is simply put foolish as they need to keep the focus on efficiency all the way as opposed to celebrating every accomplishment.

Well thats a nice opinion mate but frankly you dont need a universal studios or disney land to make yourself a military might. But heh thats just a poor brit who's country is about to be "replaced" by the "muslim" world whta do I know?

Hi There,

I can really understand the unintelligent belligerence being displayed by one or two of our friends (is that the right word?) across the pond. What they fail to appreciate is that a war with Europe would cost both continents dearly...it would be 'stone-age, here we come'.

If America and Europe went to war against each other, you can guarantee that mainland America would be hit daily. That your fleets and planes would be opposed way before reaching the European continent...for not since World War 2 has America been opposed on its way to a battlefield. Your cities would be hit, your industry and infrastructure would be hit, just as bad as America would hit Europe's. Meanwhile, all your other enemy's standing and clapping and laughing on the sidelines, will be having cups of tea waiting for the right time to move in on both continents, to enslave whatever survived of the populations, if that was their bent. All this, if the conflict remained conventional, which would be bad enough, but plausibily, it wouldn't, it would go nuclear, and both continents would be decimated.

The days of mainland America fighting 'total war' with impugnity are long gone. Taking on opponents whom are equally equipped with the weaponry and technology as your own would be the death-knell for us all. A war with Europe would also be a war with Israel, they would have to be fought against for they would support the US, and that would bring in the Arab nations against the Jews. In fact, a war with Europe would see the probable wholescale destruction of America, Europe, the ME, etc, and this is not counting the way China, and the other Asian countries will go.

What's required is a perspective of the consequence of such a conflict, something that has been amiss amongst a lot of the posts on this thread. America's military might looks good on paper, but in the end, it could not 'win' a war with Europe, any more than Europe could win against America...the use of 'nukes' would see to that.

Best wishes

Until US military forces occupy Italy, it will not be any war against USA and US will never let Italy because this country is a mega natural carrier and has too many US base over and under the surface and overall in Italy under Gran Sasso there are the most advanced laboratories in the world.

The WWII is quit ended, so Cold War. As italian I want US goes home. Unfortunately US really owns my country and does whatever they want. Lately in fact the italian government didn't oppose to the great widening of US base near Vicenza, in the north-est, and to the new naval base in Sicily. All this was doing against a waste paper of italian constitution. In deed Italy pay over 500milion € per year to mantein US bases and US lets over 70 nuke under italian military control against international not proliferation treaty.
How is it possible? In Italy who is against US is called anti american and is puted in the angle. If it was possible Italy could have been a state of US. Fortunately it isn't.

In conclusion, until US will be here in Italy, Europe will not have a own united military force. Perhaps it will be next millennium because now there are too many cultural differences and mistrust between europian states.
I hope much more in a union between mediterranean countries.

Ciao,

Andala

P.S.

Russia is the only country can send home US and united Europe and I hope so because Russia don't need what is under Gran Sasso.

the thing is the US still having cold war bases (operational) in some european countrys, thats due to these nations being 'nice' if say britain no longer wanted US bases to be on our soil they would be out like a flash.

i'm not sure how it works for italy due to the italians history in WW2, i know britain as numerous bases still in germany.

but again if a particular nation wanted overseas troops out, they would be out within hours/days especially if relations broke down between countrys.

Originally posted by benedict arnold
The french are busy eating crepes and snails. India could whip the French.

AHA this made me laugh to death

First of all i don't know how many atomic bombs my beloved government has hidden in its vaults just to be sure we can be in safety for the next 50 years just in case, but that's probably a LOT.
Secondly, i'm not talkin about an Iranian nuclear bomb-like AHA this was a small glimpse of what's the real deal with a A.Bomb that's for sure

THIRD, i seen a documentary not so far ago on tv, French militaries were in excercise and everything in French Guiana (hard place for training,full of mosquitos,tarentulas,70% of humidity... the whole damn thing ) & they said:You know the US Militaries went here once,they never came back to train round here.They said it was too hard"(word for word)
LOL MUAHAAAA i guess my third part is done ,no?(got anything to say?no ok let's got ahead)

FOURTH: India? Well I've got nathen to say about India lol they're probably 1 billion or i don't know how many heads, if the the weather changes for some reason we first blast 'em with a few bombs & then we send the légions étrangères.Heard of them?i guess not which is a terribly mistake.Just to give you an overview, if you know rambo,you guessed who they are.Just a bunch of fools ex gangsters or whatever recruited to blast some arrogant US dood who crossed the line of no return.I don't even know if those dudes got a life other than the military one.They're constantly on the "ground" from what i know.

FIFTH: No amateurs allowed in the army ANYMORE.It's reserved for professionals ONLY that means they are probably LESS in terms of numbers but well decided to peel the caps to survive & keep France w/o any probs.

Understood buddy?

Now pay your war in Irak lol(how many bucks spent for that war?350 millions? more? lol ya need to work for the rest of your life to pay the debts just too bad) ,We're just eatin our crèpes over here it's all good,it's a bit sunny today,sounds good)
I must say, well like i always say actually, US is real good for entertaining people in whatever domain.
They're my dawgs only for that (Robert Rodriguez&Quentin Tarentino,they're on top a.t.m,don't you think? )

Theories...

Even if the US won against EU, what would be the next step. Occupy?

There is really no point in considering this war between the US and the EU, when there is so much war to fight before this even happens ( Middle East, China-Taiwan, North Korea, Central Africa, India-Pakistan, South American insurgents).

Seriously what are you doing creating splits in our unity. Let us be in our fortress Europe where things are nice and beautiful, while the Americans stay in their own part of the globe. As long as the wars are outside of our fortresses most of us can live happily. As long we keep the terrorists in their war torn countries we can enjoy the peace and quiet. In fact sending troops outside to draw the attention of the terrorist is a very good idea.

There won't be a war between Europe and the US, so you guys can shut it and end your macho rhetoric of stupidity.

I thought this thread was entitled 'Will the Europeans ever be powerful?

Of course several people have hijacked the thread to wage their own kind of geo-poilitical war, a kind of EU v USA nonsense.

To put a lid on the whole subject, the USA is not big enough to fight the EU or Europe. Don't forget, Russia is still a part of Europe.

The USA does not have enough quality aircraft, ships, tanks, guns and not least, men, to fight the EU or Europe.

The USA does not have sufficiently high calibre troops to occupy the EU or Europe, even if they did manage to scrape together sufficient forces to occupy, having survived the invasion the UK, France, Belguim, Germany, Iran, Turkey or Italy. (Think Iraq writ large)

EU:

Exports:
$1.33 trillion

Imports:
$1.466 trillion

Trade deficit = $136 Billion

USA:

Exports:
$1.024 trillion

Imports:
$1.869 Trillion

Trade Deficit = $845 Billion (That's VERY VERY bad)

The viewpoints of people in Europe and the viewpoints of people in America have changed immensly since the end of communism. Although the British government sends people like myself into Iraq doesn't mean I want it and the British public are also strongly against the war, there is no worse feeling than that feeling of being servants to another country. If people stateside do not know, following bush into the Iraq war cost Tony Blair any chance of ever being realected infact it is likely his party will loose the next election.

Myself and my comrades all took the same oath as we joined and that was to protect Queen and Country, i did not swear to give my life if need be for America's reliable source of oil. The price of life some of my friends have given.

In Germany I have made friends with the locals and the anti-american (Government) feeling is even more evident. Germany has seen two world wars and was "officially" occupied by foreign forces untill 1995. (We are only there now under agreement) The German people have the view that war should only happen if 100% neccessary.

I also envisage a time when the EU has relations with the USA that are similar to USA's realations to Russia and China. I think this because the EU is peeling further away from the USA and it is current American doctrine of "Your with us or your against us" that shows the USA's stance on foreign country's that don't comply.

It could all be quite grey for the USA in the not so different future, but maybe isolating herself from the rest of the world might be a blessing in disguise as it will give her time to reflect and re-establish a constructive postion as a world super power.

But the question of whether or not the EU will ever be powerful? well yes!

The EU if it were to unite in the sense that the states of America united then the EU would be the most powerful military, diplomaticaly and financial force the world has EVER seen it would dwarf todays USA, China and Russian federation.

People from the US tend to see miltary technology as a means of power but in Europe we have all witnessed what war can do so we tend to do things diplomatically and in that sense the EU is unmatched, it's through strong diplomatic relations that a country really shows it's standing in the world.

Be safe

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
People from the US tend to see miltary technology as a means of power but in Europe we have all witnessed what war can do so we tend to do things diplomatically and in that sense the EU is unmatched, it's through strong diplomatic relations that a country really shows it's standing in the world.

That's very true

As long as the US of A has got a "super ego", it's all good for us.
So keep going this way

I would feel much more incensed by several of the opinion-posts here, had their authors not fed them to me with such spelling as 'LOL' and without any form of grammar.

I would advise we drop this topic, as it has run its course of intelligible debate, as has been made clearly evident by those few who have responded, after resurrecting the venerable old thing.

-

Yea iblis. Lets bring a little more sane approach to the debate.

Jimmy...

There was a report filed not to long ago by the CIA back in 05-06 which forecasts how the world will look in 2020. It stated that the EU will collapse in 15 years. It also predicts the end of Nato and post-1945 military alliances.

So jimmy, the US is the one moving away from the EU, Its like the younger, stronger pup leaving his older wounded dieing brother behind because his wounded bother has nothing left to offer him. The EU's inability to adapt to globalization is one reason why the EU is slipping. And as far as military forces go, we americans are proud of our military. Its there to protect one of the things we value, yet take forgranted most, our freedoms. By the way, US military spending is supposed to be at 1 trillion USD by 2010. (just to spread a little light on what the EU would have to 'compete' with for years to come.)

And I dont see how the EU 'could' make a military force that is comparable or better then Americas given the EUs inability to agree with one another on things. And the funds, while they might be their, the will most certainly isnt.

I would also like to point out that the US creates more jobs in 1 month then Germany or France create in ONE ENTIRE YEAR!

If Germany, France and Italy were american states, they would be among the poorest in the Union. The French economy would lead only Arkansas, Montana, West Virginia and Mississippi in per capita GDP. Germany would trail all 50 states. The EUs economy is rather stagnate as well. (unlike Americas) Thus painting a grim outlook for the EU.

but dont take my word for it... just read the below excerpt.. The EU is starting to fall behind the rest of the world...

news.scotsman.com...

THE CIA has predicted that the European Union will break-up within 15 years unless it radically reforms its ailing welfare systems.

The report by the intelligence agency, which forecasts how the world will look in 2020, warns that Europe could be dragged into economic decline by its ageing population. It also predicts the end of Nato and post-1945 military alliances.

In a devastating indictment of EU economic prospects, the report warns: "The current EU welfare state is unsustainable and the lack of any economic revitalisation could lead to the splintering or, at worst, disintegration of the EU, undermining its ambitions to play a heavyweight international role."

It adds that the EU’s economic growth rate is dragged down by Germany and its restrictive labour laws. Reforms there - and in France and Italy to lesser extents - remain key to whether the EU as a whole can break out of its "slow-growth pattern".

Reflecting growing fears in the US that the pain of any proper reform would be too much to bear, the report adds that the experts it consulted "are dubious that the present political leadership is prepared to make even this partial break, believing a looming budgetary crisis in the next five years would be the more likely trigger for reform".

The EU is also set for a looming demographic crisis because of a drop in birth rates and increased longevity, with devastating economic consequences.

The report says: "Either European countries adapt their workforces, reform their social welfare, education and tax systems, and accommodate growing immigrant populations [chiefly from Muslim countries] or they face a period of protracted economic stasis."

As a result of the increased immigration needed, the report predicts that Europe’s Muslim population is set to increase from around 13% today to between 22% and 37% of the population by 2025, potentially triggering tensions.

The report predicts that America’s relationships with Europe will be "dramatically altered" over the next 15 years, in a move away from post-Second World War institutions. Nato could disappear and be replaced by increased EU action.

"The EU, rather than Nato, will increasingly become the primary institution for Europe, and the role Europeans shape for themselves on the world stage is most likely to be projected through it," the report adds. "Whether the EU will develop an army is an open question."

Defence spending by individual European countries, including the UK, France, and Germany, is likely to fall further behind China and other countries over the next 15 years. Collectively these countries will outspend all others except the US and possibly China.

The expected next technological revolution will involve the convergence of nano, bio, information and materials technology and will further bolster China and India’s prospects, the study predicts. Both countries are investing in basic research in these fields and are well placed to be leaders. But whereas the US will retain its overall lead, the report warns "Europe risks slipping behind Asia in some of these technologies".

For Europe, an increasing preference for natural gas may reinforce regional relationships, such as those with Russia or North Africa, given the inter-dependence of pipeline delivery, the report argues. But this means the EU will have to deal with Russia, which the report also warns "faces a severe demographic crisis resulting from low birth rates, poor medical care and a potentially explosive Aids situation".

Russia also borders an "unstable region" in the Caucasus and Central Asia, "the effects of which - Muslim extremism, terrorism and endemic conflict - are likely to continue spilling over into Russia".

The report also largely en dorses forecasts that by 2020 China’s gross domestic product will exceed that of individual western economic powers except for the US. India’s GDP will have overtaken or be overtaking European economies.

Because of the sheer size of China’s and India’s populations their standard of living need not approach European and western levels to become important economic powers.

The economies of other developing countries, such as Brazil, could surpass all but the largest European countries by 2020.

It doesnt look good for you Euros...


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[edit on 112828p://1702pm by semperfoo]

Only a guy named benedict arnold would be worried about weither or not the Europeans will ever be powerful again.

Originally posted by semperfooThere was a report filed not to long ago by the CIA back in 05-06 which forecasts how the world will look in 2020. It stated that the EU will collapse in 15 years. It also predicts the end of Nato and post-1945 military alliances.

Allright if the CIA wrote it, that might be the truthful truth.
I don't say it's easy to build EU but....c'mon
End of Nato,...pfff(am i awake?) if it end it will be for a new thing more powerful otherwise it will not end, this is pure fantasy right here.

I would also like to point out that the US creates more jobs in 1 month then Germany or France create in ONE ENTIRE YEAR!

Yeeeah when you let the dirty work,not well paid, for the hispanic community,the black community etc..I guess it's easy to create jobs.Remember the riots from the hispanic community recently?
Two different views of things: sharing money(us)/not sharing money(you)
Even the British who claim they've got lot of jobs creations,they have little tricks to raise the numbers down.They claim 3% of unemployment but when you look deeper you can easily find the triple.
May i remind you that after the two world wars(yeah,TWO) we had a lot to rebuild all accross europe? from the single tiny church destroyed to the
hotels to the roads...EVERYTHING.That's why we've adopted this system (here in france) and there is no discussion possible on this suject, that was the right thing to do.
The only thing is that in the early 80's my government like the others(but Germany at that time wasn't reunified still) should have taken new directives regarding economy.My guess is, if they've not, there were good reasons.
So long story short: we now have some delay regarding a few things but the amerikkka is not far ahead from us if you ask me.Look at the poors in your country,look at your outdated buses, look at your railroads coming from another era & the list goes on & on.

If Germany, France and Italy were american states, they would be among the poorest in the Union.

OK a non sense statement for the simple fact that, IF we were gentle enough to join up into your fantastic amerikkka, the laws would be the same for your state & ours(i presume), so how could we possibly not be the richest?We know many languages (unlike you)Our educational system is harder than yours (a 16 in france is most definitely a 14 in the US)
We could get the best jobs,well paid EASILY.

Now give me a break

[edit on 19-2-2007 by themaster1]

Originally posted by themaster1
Allright if the CIA wrote it, that might be the truthful truth.
I don't say it's easy to build EU but....c'mon
End of Nato,...pfff(am i awake?) if it end it will be for a new thing more powerful otherwise it will not end, this is pure fantasy right here.

Hey I'm just the messenger here. I didnt write it...Thats what the CIA is 'predicting'..

Yeeeah when you let the dirty work,not well paid, for the hispanic community,the black community etc.

They dont make up all of america my friend. So I wouldnt generalize if I were you

I guess it's easy to create jobs.Remember the riots from the hispanic community recently?

They were protest, and they were for illegal alien amnesty. Oh by the way remember the riots in Paris? Yea those are "riots".

May i remind you that after the two world wars(yeah,TWO) we had a lot to rebuild all accross europe? from the single tiny church destroyed to the
hotels to the roads...EVERYTHING.That's why we've adopted this system (here in france) and there is no discussion possible on this suject, that was the right thing to do.

As if I have forgotten? Yes, I am well aware that europe had to rebuild after two (yes TWO) world wars. Whats your point? How does this have anything to do with the subject matter? Maybe your proving my point in Europe cannot adapt to the changing world today?

we now have some delay regarding a few things but the amerikkka is not far ahead from us if you ask me.Look at the poors in your country,

Yes yes, The thing to keep in mind is your worthless, unprofessional, baised opinion... there are poor ppl in every country... Remember that.

look at your outdated buses, look at your railroads coming from another era & the list goes on & on.

Now your reaching.

Need I remind you which country is constantly on the forefront of inventing the latest technology in the world? Heres a hint. Its the country that roughly accounts for 40% of the worlds spending on global research and development (R&D). What next cupcake?

OK a non sense statement for the simple fact that, IF we were gentle enough to join up into your fantastic amerikkka, the laws would be the same for your state & ours(i presume),

The point being that your france is a pipsqueak when compared to my America. As is Germany.

so how could we possibly not be the richest?

UHHH....because America is... *shrugs shoulders*

We know many languages (unlike you)

But how many nations in the EU share the same language? Look at the close proximity's between the countrys of the EU who speak different languages to get just what it is im saying. Alot of it has to do with the surroundings. You have to know 'many' different languages because you have to deal with a population that doesnt have one definitive language at which it speaks, unlike America which is mainly english. Also keep in mind americas landmass. To the north we have the canucks which is a primarily English speaking nation, and just to the south you have the Latinos who are a Spanish speaking nation. Let me point out to you that america is the second largest spanish speaking nation on the planet behind only mexico. So we speak the language that best suits our needs, much like you euros do.

Our educational system is harder than yours (a 16 in france is most definitely a 14 in the US)

HMMM...lets see here....mind telling me which country has 17 of the top 20 university's in the world? Perhaps another reason why America is more successful then your france and Europe altogether?
ed.sjtu.edu.cn...

We could get the best jobs,well paid EASILY.

Then why dont you if its so "easy"?. What was the reason then for all those riots in france a few months back?
Perhaps a pipe dream on your part?.

Now give me a break

I didnt know I had put you on the clock..



[edit on 032828p://5502am by semperfoo]

Originally posted by themaster1

FOURTH: India? Well I've got nathen to say about India lol they're probably 1 billion or i don't know how many heads, if the the weather changes for some reason we first blast 'em with a few bombs & then we send the légions étrangères.Heard of them?

And how would you do that?
I don't mean to intervene in this ridiculous slugfest but France does not have the reach to sustain a bombing campaign over India right from the French mainland.

Anyways this is all ridiculous and I don't know where India came into all of this. India has no quarrel with the French and has a good military relationship with them.

Nous sommes amies..