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Will the europeans ever be powerful?

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posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 08:54 PM
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Correction: *had* one. Without Japan, Europe and China the US would be bankrupt immediately. Those countries/continent ensure you are able to purchase a bread and a car and that US has such a strong military by buying US debts.



lol and you are saying Japan and Europe and China have no dependence on the US? This is a global economy. Every country/place [Japan, Europe, China, US] would be bankrupted without the other 3 not just the US.

Why does it seem people on these boards are basically hoping for the US to fall?




posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 09:00 PM
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Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Why does it seem people on these boards are basically hoping for the US to fall?


Maybe because it would be interesting to see happen... Something to do, i suppose...

All Empires have their day, so they say.

Seriously though, it may not be a hope that America "falls", per se, but rather they wish to see the balance of power actually balance a bit, rather than being weighted heavily in one sides favour.



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 09:05 PM
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Seriously though, it may not be a hope that America "falls", per se, but rather they wish to see the balance of power actually balance a bit, rather than being weighted heavily in one sides favour.


No I have basically heard how the US is going to be a third world country very soon lol. Meaning people are wishing it has no power once so ever.



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 09:06 PM
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Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor



Seriously though, it may not be a hope that America "falls", per se, but rather they wish to see the balance of power actually balance a bit, rather than being weighted heavily in one sides favour.


No I have basically heard how the US is going to be a third world country very soon lol. Meaning people are wishing it has no power once so ever.


Parts of it could be described like that now,


there is a big difference between the have's and have nots in the US. It isn't a great leap of faith to imagine a scenario where the US could go Pete Tong.



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 09:20 PM
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Parts of it could be described like that now,




Uh huh. Well now that you pointed out about the US that "parts of it could be described like that[a 3rd world country] now", it brings to mind like...I don't know...every other country.


Seriously I am not into the bashing of countries and saying how great other countries are, because every country in the world at this point has many internal problems.

I got out of the "mine is better than yours" attitude when I left pre-school.



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor

Uh huh. Well now that you pointed out about the US that "parts of it could be described like that[a 3rd world country] now", it brings to mind like...I don't know...every other country.


Seriously I am not into the bashing of countries and saying how great other countries are, because every country in the world at this point has many internal problems.

I got out of the "mine is better than yours" attitude when I left pre-school.


Indeed. I can think of more than a few places here too!



posted on Aug, 9 2006 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Correction: *had* one. Without Japan, Europe and China


That's a fact, whether you like it or not the US economy is becoming weaker and weaker.


Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
lol and you are saying Japan and Europe and China have no dependence on the US?

This is a global economy. Every country/place [Japan, Europe, China, US] would be bankrupted without the other 3 not just the US.


Am I? No. Is it the case? No. While the US is of major importance to the global economy, and to China in particular. However, the consequences of such a collapse would be worse for the US and Japan, than for Europe and China.

First of all the European Monetary unit becomes stronger, and could very likely replace the Petro Dollar is Iran succeeds to open its Oil Bourse. The ''domino effect'' would lead to an even greater demand for Euros, as countries see the Petro Dollar depreciating without being able to prevent or stop it, whereas the Euro automatically appreciates. A collapse of the US economy and Dollar would make each and every Dollar useless, while a strong Euro would greatly depreciate, but not necessarily collapse. However, ruling it out is impossible, that's why I invest my money in golden coins.

One very serious problem is the US debts, Japan and China are the number one and two of Debt buyers, as soon as the US economy collapses, their ''investments'' would vanish into thin air. The same applies for Europe, however it has a bigger economy to bear the consequences, than Japan, and it doesn´t buy as much debts as Japan and China do.

The crucial difference between the US and Europe, is that Europe would probably recover from such a catastrophe, while this would almost be impossible for the US economy, or at least it would take much more time. America would lose its position as number one importer of Chinese products and could very well be taken over by Europe and Russia in specific. China, in the long term, will take over the position as super power. Not to speak of the mess it would create in the US, ever wondered why the US government came up and currently executes the construction of many concentration camps in the US?

For Europe, the US is an important player, but not the number one. Have a look at the following graphs.



EU imports 2003, Eurostat


EU exports 2003, Eurostat




Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Why does it seem people on these boards are basically hoping for the US to fall?


Don't be ignorant. I've done my homework and am aware of the consequences such a collapse would cause for me as Euro. However, I must admit, I like to proof Americans wrong whom still think the US economy is superior and will never collapse.


Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
No I have basically heard how the US is going to be a third world country very soon lol. Meaning people are wishing it has no power once so ever.

I understand that seems very unlikely to you, but I think you don’t really understand in what situation the US currently is. If an economy collapses your country literally becomes a third world country. Look at the great Soviet Union, look to their army, and look how long it takes for them to re-establish its economy.


Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor

Seriously I am not into the bashing of countries and saying how great other countries are, because every country in the world at this point has many internal problems.

I got out of the "mine is better than yours" attitude when I left pre-school.


If you experience my statements in that way, then I'd like to offer you my apologies for feeling like that, as I didn´t have the intentions to hurt you.








[edit on 9-8-2006 by Mdv2]



posted on Aug, 9 2006 @ 03:45 PM
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Mdv2 I am not being "ignorant" as you put it. I am just old enough to know, that predictions of economic doom have been predicted for decades. Everytime recessions and semi crashes happened, the US economy was going to collapse. Japan was going to overtake the US too.

As you age, and you experience things. You start to get less excited and jump when another prophecy of doom gets reported.

I also know that it isn't the US only who is in bad shape, but it is the whole world. The US is just so damn popular, so people ONLY focus on the US. Everyone has problems.

There are some who can argue with you that the US is really not in bad shape. People say the US debt is high[but debt percentage of GDP is lower than Japan and some countries in the EU, I think also the EU itself], but so is the GDP[higher than the rest of the world]. Reported unemployment is less than the EU and China.

We'll just have to wait and see



posted on Aug, 9 2006 @ 04:23 PM
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So the counties with a higher debt burden, higher unemployment and lower growth, lower productivity, lower per capita GDP, lower purchasing power and are facing a demographic death spiral (the EU) will fare better than the country with a historically low debt burden, with a SHRINKING deficit and debt burden, the world's largest GDP, the world's largest per capita GDP, the world's highest purchasing power, the world's most productive workers, robust growth and declining employment?

Yeah, that makes sense...



posted on Aug, 9 2006 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Reported unemployment is less than the EU and China.

We'll just have to wait and see



lol, it makes me laugh when people compare the EU on figures like this, why? because newer 'poorer' eastern european countrys that have just joined are war torn countrys, very nearly 3rd world.

but those countrys will get richer, but i guartee if you compare how better off an average american is compared to an average person in britain, i bet the britons will come off better all the time.

why? (i'm not going to go into it all again) but free health care/greater unemployment schemes than the US/education...overall the govenment in 'established' european countrys look after its citizens more than the US does.

in america you either make it in the land of opportunity or you don't, and if you don't you live in poverty.

for education in america (costs money) if you don't have money, only 1 option the military which one of there greatest mottos for getting people to sign up is 'education' yet for this education you can get sent to war and be killed (very old fashioned traditions), and to say its the world richest country is quite shocking.

blahhh i can't mi arsed to go into it all again


all in all, america is only the worlds only superpower because of this, if it took care of its citizens more than spends on its military then the country would only be a ^so called^ 'great power' not 'superpower'.

same for china, i watched a documentry about what they do, their government make people buy there homes, after they do this they knock them down the people are then people homeless...the house that as been demolished gets rebuilt and therefor that property isn't theirs anymore
(secret cameras caught it) and the police demanded they stopped filming, the people dare not approch the govenment about it.

+ they are workacholics (everything is made in china) - but yeah those are the reasons why there economy is booming.

me personally, i'm okay living here - we've got skytv (all channels),car,house paid for,dvd,42 inche tv, computer with broadband internet access and we are only average joes with average jobs


its also good to know if i take BAD i'll be in hospital straight away and be put right (at no cost), but remind me never to take a break in america when i'm not feeling too good or i could wake up 1 week later in hospital and some doc in will "hello steven you owe us $thousands$" i'll be like f-cough wish you left me to die lol.

[edit on 9-8-2006 by st3ve_o]



posted on Aug, 9 2006 @ 07:43 PM
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for education in america (costs money) if you don't have money, only 1 option the military which one of there greatest mottos for getting people to sign up is 'education' yet for this education you can get sent to war and be killed (very old fashioned traditions), and to say its the world richest country is quite shocking.


No there isn't only one option. I had no money when I went to college. I got scholarships and student loans, and didn't have to join the military


Nobody is debating the US doesn't take the best care of its citizens (well at least I am not). I am saying that it has less unemployment than the EU and China, which is true. You said the poorer countries in the EU will get richer. Good for them
Like I said, if you think the US is going to crash economically, it doesn't bother me. It will bother me when I see it. Just like people saying there will be nuclear war on August 22nd.



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 03:32 AM
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Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor

I am just old enough to know, that predictions of economic doom have been predicted for decades. As you age, and you experience things. You start to get less excited and jump when another prophecy of doom gets reported.


I'll have to agree with what you say. After all, I am just a student and haven't experienced as much as you probably do. However, this time, the situation seems to differ. Can you tell me whether people from inside the Fed also alarmed the government? As you might have seen, the Comptroller General, an ex advisor of Reagan , US Congress man Ron Paul, and others.

Besides, world's best paid financial advisor, Harry Schultz, whom also advised Ron Paul, warns for quite some time for such a collapse. Schultz is not just another advisor, he earns $3400,- a hour for its advices. Really you wouldn't earn such a salary by telling fairy tales.

Furthermore, it's quite remarkable no one seems to see the importance of this Iranian Oil Bourse, which is strange, and even stranger that Bush managed to get away switching back the Iraqi Oil Bourse from Euros to Dollars, more or less unnoticed.


Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
No there isn't only one option. I had no money when I went to college. I got scholarships and student loans, and didn't have to join the military


Have a look at this page


Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Nobody is debating the US doesn't take the best care of its citizens (well at least I am not).


That's one of the reasons Europe's Debt burden is a little more higher. We enjoy life, I don't say Americans don't, but Americans generally have to work more and social securities or healthcare are not even comparable to Europe's, which is factually superior, but also does cost us a lot of money.



Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
I am saying that it has less unemployment than the EU and China, which is true.


I don't think it's true. Many figures are deliberately adjusted in favor of the US government, with the intention to falsely reflect the ''merits'' of their policy. The nation's opinion and voice can make or break you.
I've stated one example of the US inflation a few pages back, which I've quoted hereunder again. And actually, the same applies to the US unemployment rate, which is actually twice as high. I'll post my reasons to claim this, supported by proper sources, later today.


Why the US inflation rate is actually two percent higher than the official rate




The historically low levels of real interest rates (even using the understated CPI data)
suggest a supportive outlook for gold prices. At this stage we see little likelihood of a
significant rise in real US interest rates given the precarious state of consumer
indebtedness.
Within this positive scenario for gold prices we examine the risks that the US economy
could enter a period of either rapidly rising inflation or, alternatively, move into
recession and possibly a deflationary slump, both of which would be likely to put even
more upward pressure on the gold price.


The changes in CPI methodology since the Clinton Administration are estimated by
Williams to have led to the CPI figures systematically understating the true level of US inflation by 2.7% on an ongoing basis.

Source: Cheuveux Gold Report - PDF Format






The Wall Street Journal

...

But even as the Federal Reserve raises interest rates amid a recent uptick in inflation, many critics complain the hedonic method is distorting the picture of what's going on in the economy. They say hedonics is too subjective and fear it helps keep inflation figures artificially low -- meaning the Fed may already be lagging in its inflation-fighting mission.

Full article:
Wall Street Journal: Tricks to lower the actual inflation rate


WASHINGTON - Consumer inflation slowed in June, helped by a temporary drop in energy prices. But the improvement was expected to be short-lived with a new crisis in the Middle East pushing crude oil to record highs.

The Labor Department reported that its closely watched Consumer Price Index rose by just 0.2 percent in June, the smallest increase in four months and just half of the 0.4 percent May rise.

The overall increase was in line with expectations although core inflation, which excludes energy and food, rose by 0.3 percent in June, higher than the 0.2 percent Wall Street had been expecting. That increase left core inflation rising for the past three months at an annual rate of 3.6 percent, far above the Federal Reserve comfort zone of 2 percent or less.

www.msnbc.msn.com...



Actual rate based on the Cheuvreux Gold Report: 6.3 %





[edit on 10-8-2006 by Mdv2]



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 04:31 AM
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I'm going back to post 1 on this... Will the europeans ever be powerful?

That has to be the most stupidest first post I have seen in a long time. No offence to any Americans but read your history. The europeans came to America. All your ancestors (leaving out native Americans) are from Europe/rest of the world.

Will the europeans ever be powerful? - If that means getting into Wars - then ok, America is very powerful - great at starting them but zero points for finishing them and don't give me the WWII bull#.

Reading this thread has been a struggle - The economies of Poland Germany etc - some members here are clueless when it comes to understanding Europe. For some folks here - Europe seems to be like some sort of a Disney Land.

What has Poland got to do with anything, bigger tanks, better nuclear weapons - (I'm not going to even start).

This thread is 'below grass level' and not 'Above Top Secret'.

Moderators - please shut it.... it's pathetic.



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 05:44 AM
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Originally posted by aob982

Reading this thread has been a struggle - The economies of Poland Germany etc - some members here are clueless when it comes to understanding Europe. For some folks here - Europe seems to be like some sort of a Disney Land.
Oh, I'm sure all people here are very ashamed to hear it was a "struggle" for you t to read it (maybe not used to read a lot), Maybe you'd like to debate who you think are clueless, and who, in your almighty wisdom are right




What has Poland got to do with anything, bigger tanks, better nuclear weapons - (I'm not going to even start).

Poland has nothing to do with anything, and that's why, if you read the posts, which I'm sure you did, we shut up the member who stated such nonsense.




This thread is 'below grass level' and not 'Above Top Secret'.

Moderators - please shut it.... it's pathetic.
Well, if you really think all information here and ongoing debate is "below grass level", and you have nothing to add or say to it, perhaps you should just move along...I hear BTS is very fun to post...as you might know.



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 06:44 AM
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Isoeb - I did read the posts and I also read the one from the moderator telling the ATS members to say on track. ref posted on 30-7-2006 at 23:13 (post id: 2381436).

So that's were the struggle was. 36 pages of off-topic posts, name calling, slandering and some information about Poland and Germanys economies... it got boring.

'This thread is 'below grass level' and not 'Above Top Secret'. - because the thread went off topic and many of the attitudes and comments were childish!.

'Oh, I'm sure all people here are very ashamed to hear it was a "struggle" for you t to read it (maybe not used to read a lot), Maybe you'd like to debate who you think are clueless, and who, in your almighty wisdom are right'

Tell you what mate - you're another clown who thinks they can drum up a few smart comments and FAIL miserably to stir up an issue. You should also know that you're insults have no effect.

End of post.



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by aob982
Tell you what mate - you're another clown who thinks they can drum up a few smart comments and FAIL miserably to stir up an issue. You should also know that you're insults have no effect.
Oh, so name calling is childish...yet I'm a clown...riiiiight.
Well I guess I did fail since you didn't got to debate my smart comments,
how am I going to get some sleep?? My "insults"? No effect?
Now you're really making me cry!

I guess I'll keep on listening to people who have criteria, and miss your great input in the issue...

BTW, do you have only 63 ATS points? Is that correct? Yet you critize people who are way above your "rank", but not only critize but call the thread, "below grass level"?


Unless you have intelligent to say other than that...move along

End of post.



posted on Aug, 11 2006 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by Mdv2
he earns $3400,- a hour


Who cares?

Agriculture and manufacture>Finance and banks



posted on Aug, 13 2006 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by aob982

Will the europeans ever be powerful? - If that means getting into Wars - then ok, America is very powerful - great at starting them but zero points for finishing them and don't give me the WWII bull#.


Um... what wars have we started and not finished?

Revolution we started and Britain was unable to finish (we didn't really win, they just didn't want to fight any more).

Spanish American war we thought they started it and we definately finished it.

WWI, the Europeans started it and we finished it.

Same for WWII. (For both of these we really tried to stay out).

Korea we are still in, so I guess we haven't finished that (although S Korea is doing really well under our protection).

Vietnam was started by the French, not the Americans.

Everything else we have finished it pretty well.



posted on Aug, 14 2006 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by PBscientist
Um... what wars have we started and not finished?


um..every war you've been in,

as a nation america have never won a war by ITSELF!


Originally posted by PBscientist
Revolution we started and Britain was unable to finish (we didn't really win, they just didn't want to fight any more).


yeah but we are talking about 'europeans' during the revolutionary war america had help from many european countrys fighting the british, i don't know what american history teaches about the revolutionary war but britain was at war with france/spain/holland and america during the revolutionary war period.


Originally posted by PBscientist
WWI, the Europeans started it and we finished it.


wrong, the britain and its empire was the main infulence in WW1, america during the turn of the 20th century never really had a substantional military!!

americas infulence in WW1 was providing large amounts of troops to the war, but the americans primarily used british and french artillery/aircraft and tanks.


Originally posted by PBscientist
Same for WWII. (For both of these we really tried to stay out).


WW2 was clash of the titans really, after WW1 many nations built up there militarys incase the same happened again!!

Britain and its empire
Russia
Japan
France
United States
Nazi Germany

all these countrys were fighting each other 3 years until america joined it, its like an heavy weight boxing match!!

lewis vs tyson (at their peak), if both was fighting each other and it went into round10, tyson says "i quit" and muhammad ali says "okay i'll take over" (fresh as a daisy) fighting a tired lewis, who would win?

thats WW2 was, i not denying the fact that if it wasn't for americas infulence the allies would have lost, but its a well known fact the (big3) russia, britain, US without any of those victory could never have been accoplished.

if you mean to say you 'finished it' by dropping the atom, well that was a british invention, mostly british scientists worked on the manhattan project, the atomic bomb was something britain had been working since the early 1900's,

britain thought if we mastered the atom and dropped it on germany the war would be won, britain then finally mastered the atom and news was passed around the world that britain finally had the knowledge to build an 'atomic bomb',

but fighting in both wars from beginning to end crippled britain (financially) so we gave details of the atomic bomb to the united states who assembled it and dropped it onto japan (which forced the japanese to surrender).


Originally posted by PBscientist
Vietnam was started by the French, not the Americans.


still a lost war though, despite americans saying 'politics' was the result in defeat in vietnam you still dropped more bombs than what was used throughout the whole of WW2, so thats just bull and an excuse.

low morale/underestimation of the enemy/drugs/high desertion rates/unable to control the movenment of the vietnamise/unprepared for a jungle warfare/unprepared guerrilla war tactics was the result in the United States defeat against a 3rd world country.

it goes to show regardless of how much advanced you are 'technogical' wise over your enemy, if you have a nation (everyone involved) fighting for a course they truelly believe in, you can accomplish anything.

you don't lose 60,000 lifes to 'politics'


Originally posted by PBscientist
Everything else we have finished it pretty well.


iraq, afghanistan
- if those are finished then why are US troops (and other countrys) still losing servicemen?














[edit on 14-8-2006 by st3ve_o]



posted on Aug, 15 2006 @ 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by st3ve_o

um..every war you've been in,

as a nation america have never won a war by ITSELF!


...That is a pretty weird way to work it, but I think we won the Spanish American War by ourselves...


yeah but we are talking about 'europeans' during the revolutionary war america had help from many european countrys fighting the british, i don't know what american history teaches about the revolutionary war but britain was at war with france/spain/holland and america during the revolutionary war period.


Exactly, which I why I said Britain just didn't want to continue fighting. It was basically their Vietnam.



wrong, the britain and its empire was the main infulence in WW1, america during the turn of the 20th century never really had a substantional military!!

americas infulence in WW1 was providing large amounts of troops to the war, but the americans primarily used british and french artillery/aircraft and tanks.


And the british use a lot of American/German/Foreign equipment now. Does that make them any less respectable?



WW2 was clash of the titans really, after WW1 many nations built up there militarys incase the same happened again!!

Britain and its empire
Russia
Japan
France
United States
Nazi Germany

all these countrys were fighting each other 3 years until america joined it, its like an heavy weight boxing match!!

lewis vs tyson (at their peak), if both was fighting each other and it went into round10, tyson says "i quit" and muhammad ali says "okay i'll take over" (fresh as a daisy) fighting a tired lewis, who would win?

thats WW2 was, i not denying the fact that if it wasn't for americas infulence the allies would have lost, but its a well known fact the (big3) russia, britain, US without any of those victory could never have been accoplished.

if you mean to say you 'finished it' by dropping the atom, well that was a british invention, mostly british scientists worked on the manhattan project, the atomic bomb was something britain had been working since the early 1900's,

britain thought if we mastered the atom and dropped it on germany the war would be won, britain then finally mastered the atom and news was passed around the world that britain finally had the knowledge to build an 'atomic bomb',

but fighting in both wars from beginning to end crippled britain (financially) so we gave details of the atomic bomb to the united states who assembled it and dropped it onto japan (which forced the japanese to surrender).


Who worked on nuclear weapons in the UK? The first work on it I found by Britain was in 1940 by 2 German immigrants. Also, I never said that the US did all of the work in WWII, just that it helped finish it.




still a lost war though, despite americans saying 'politics' was the result in defeat in vietnam you still dropped more bombs than what was used throughout the whole of WW2, so thats just bull and an excuse.

low morale/underestimation of the enemy/drugs/high desertion rates/unable to control the movenment of the vietnamise/unprepared for a jungle warfare/unprepared guerrilla war tactics was the result in the United States defeat against a 3rd world country.

it goes to show regardless of how much advanced you are 'technogical' wise over your enemy, if you have a nation (everyone involved) fighting for a course they truelly believe in, you can accomplish anything.

you don't lose 60,000 lifes to 'politics'


I know. Vietnam is our one huge cock-up.



iraq, afghanistan
- if those are finished then why are US troops (and other countrys) still losing servicemen?


And WWII wasn't finished in 1941. *OH NOES, BRITAIN NEVER FINISHES ANYTHING!!!1!!11!!)

I am not arguing that America is perfect, just that some people are really unfair to it.














[edit on 14-8-2006 by st3ve_o]




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