Will the europeans ever be powerful?

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter

Regarding the question of whether war in Iraq was justified or not, read these articles:
www.danielpipes.org...
www.danielpipes.org...

I'm sorry Mr Caveman, but I'll trust more a senator than Daniel Pipes...

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
Oh dear...I'll guess I'll have to shut someone up again, since you're the one starting to call ignorant other people...I'll make my duty to prove your utter ignorance, dear polish caveman...

You are not proving anything except that you are the one who is ignorant and your total lack of knowledge about warfare and WWII. All you are doing is continuing stating blatant lies despite of being disproven and insulting those who disprove you. The truth is that every time someone is disproven, this person offends the person who has proven him wrong with stupid insults like "you don't have a brain".

Incorrect, he debunked your lies about Us economy

No, he didn't. He just stated incorrect generalisms about the US economy and didn't back them up with proof. On the other hand, I have posted the detailed truth about the US economy and backed that up with links to websites that prove tham I am right. BTW, one more proof that he was wrong about inflation in the US: tinypic.com...

wonder if you have even been there...and I'll even quote him, so you'll read it SLOWLY...and by any means, you're the least credible source in this forum,

Yeah, I'm the least credible person after you.

you think Poland has the ONLY decent military(if you can call what they have decent)

Once again you have shown that you don't read my posts. How do you want to debate with me then, if you don't read my posts? I said that Poland is the only country IN CONTINENTAL EUROPE that has a decent military. That is true. Regarding inflation, just calling the Fed 'liars" without providing any evidence while I am providing proof is not proving anything. You insulting me is not proving anything, either.

Oh yes I proved, only 144 polish pilots took action in the battle for britain, far from decisive if the total was 3000

Oh yes, and you ignored the fact that I didn't say that they were the majority but that without them the battle of Britain would have been won by the Luftwaffe because pf how many planes Polish fighter pilots have shot down.

No, I’m sorry, but before saying something I actually research it, you don’t, sorry. The Americans themselves admit this

No, the Americans do not. Go to www.americanthinker.com and read the articles there.

Well, if you call useless not depending on the US nuclear umbrella, you must live pretty below the surface…

No, I said that the French nuclear weapons were useless, which is true, and is the reason for why France needed America to defend it against the USSR.

I guess your vision of free elections means your country being occupied by a foreign nation, cohersed by terrorists caused by that same invasion (Try looking for terrorists attacks in Iraq before war) and your PM appointing Americans as advisors for the oil industry…thanks but no thanks

Iraq is not being occupied, it has been liberated. But leftist ignorant liars like you will always lie. How about European elections? Like the referendums in France and the Netherlands last year, when the voters in both countries rejected the EUC, and nevertheless the EU is still demanding that all 25 EU member countries ratify it?

It was not crushed, simply the Polish territory was occupied. Polish soldiers continued to fight, and they fought the Jerries in large numbers. Poles are the ONLY Allied nation that has fought on ALL European fronts of WWII and on the North African front.

Yeah, simply you had to borrow British or American equipment, becoming an army that had to be sustained and equipped (obviously, since your victory in Poland meant loss of all your resources)by the Americans and British, had your population slaughtered, and polish jews rounded in the infamous ghettos, but no, it wasn’t crushed…

If it was crashed, it wouldn't take part in WWII anymore. Poland and the USSR have overrun Berlin, Polish soldiers took part in the fiercest fighting.

Well, you got one right, they were few, and they played a role, crucial NO, 144 pilots cannot be called crucial in no terms, anyone here with a brain can prove me otherwise please.

Again, you have shown that you don't read my posts. I said that they played a crucial role because they shot down many Luftwaffe planes. That is true. But ignorant liars like you keep lying despite of being disproven.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter]

[edit on 31-7-2006 by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter]

To those that say that the US is spending too much on defence:

You are wrong. US Government spending at all levels (local, state and federal) is about 18% of America's GDP. The US spends only 500 billion dollars (5% of its GDP) on defence.

Historically, that is a low level of defence spending, too. US defence spending was at its peak during WWII. During that one war, America has ordered 40 aircraft carriers, hundreds of other surface ships, hundreds of submarines and 72,000 aircraft. This resulted in a debt burden of 120% after the end of WWII (9/2/1945), but US President Harry Truman reduced that debt to just 1 trillion in one year.

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter aka Zibi

Poland has the ONLY decent military

Zibi, I wont discuss any economic topics with you anymore, as you are obviously too stupid to understand it. I'd advise you to educate yourself with at least the basic principles of economics.

Lets discuss the Polish army, which I hope is a bit easier for you to understand.
The mighty Polish ground forces it's mainly used MBT is the T-72, you know the former Soviet crap used by Saddam. I really wonder how well they would perform against the Germany's army Leopard 2A6 MBTs. The current Polish situation doesn’t differ from world war two, when the mighty Polish horse cavalry detachment equipped with carbines fought against German tanks, how pathetic.

To compare a few German units with Polish:

The Polish main APC unit: BMP-1, an apc vehicle that was first introduced in the 1960s Again Soviet crap, only used by poor third world countries.
Polish navy and air force: More Soviet crap dating back to the 1970s

Poland's combat capable weapons:
48 F-16s
36 Mig-29 (you know the second hands bought from Germany)
128 Leopard 2A4 (you know the second hands bought from Germany)

Germany's equipment, to call a few:
502 Leopard 2 A4
125 Leopard 2 A5
225 Leopard 2 A6
180 Euro Fighter Typhoon

I wish Poland much Godspeed defending 304,465 sq km of land with such a force. But hey, it would be able to defend itself against other poor East European countries such as Romania. I am not a German, but don’t dare to ever call the German army weak and the Polish army ‘’able to defend itself’’.






[edit on 31-7-2006 by Mdv2]

Zibi

Someone tell me who this Zibi is. It's not me.

you are obviously too stupid to understand it.

As I said, the only resort of ignorant people when they are disproved is namecalling.

The current Polish situation doesn’t differ from world war two

Poland won WWII.

To compare a few German units with Polish:

No need to do that. Just study Polish military history. Poland has fought against Germany during 8 wars (the wars of 972, 1002-1024, 1109, 1329-1331, 1409-1411, 1454-1466, 1519-1525 and WWII) and has won every one of them.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter]

Zibi, I wont discuss any economic topics with you anymore, as you are obviously too stupid to understand it. I'd advise you to educate yourself with at least the basic principles of economics.

You mean he doesn't understand economics because he isn't admitting that the US is a definite declining power and is heading for an economic doom as so many on here love writing about?

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter

Poland won WWII.

It did?
Well forgive me for ignorance but didnt it get invaded, TWICE?

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor

Zibi, I wont discuss any economic topics with you anymore, as you are obviously too stupid to understand it. I'd advise you to educate yourself with at least the basic principles of economics.

You mean he doesn't understand economics because he isn't admitting that the US is a definite declining power and is heading for an economic doom as so many on here love writing about?

No, this is what I mean:

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
Incorrect, he [Mdv2] debunked your lies about Us economy

No, he didn't. He just stated incorrect generalisms about the US economy and didn't back them up with proof. On the other hand, I have posted the detailed truth about the US economy and backed that up with links to websites that prove tham I am right. BTW, one more proof that he was wrong about inflation in the US: tinypic.com...

If you see the previous pages you see I used two sources: the Wallstreet Journal and the Cheuvreux gold report, both trustworthy sources.

But RetinoidReceptor, please tell me what I exactly ''generalize'' Why two trustworthy sources aren't defined as evidence.
In contrast to the sources I used, Zibi used exactly the source where my comment was about. Namely, the figures in his sources are firstly: from older years and secondly, from the government that deliberatly adjust the rates.

And finally, he only uses biased and unreliable sources which everyone can easily find with google. If you, or Zibi can show me some real evidence proving the US economy is strong and I am thus wrong I'd surely read it. I've enough other reports supports my statements, and which I will surely use later on.









[edit on 31-7-2006 by Mdv2]

A reminder to those posting in this thread.


The topic of this discussion is "Will the europeans ever be powerful? ".

Please keep the responses focused On-Topic.


The ongoing personal attacks, insults and name calling are a violation of the Terms and Conditions that we All agreed to upon joining this Community, and any posting of such will stop now.

Thank you.

Well…seems to me I’ll have yet once more to prove Europe is powerful and Poland is NOT the most “decent army” in continental Europe, here we go…

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter

You are not proving anything except that you are the one who is ignorant and your total lack of knowledge about warfare and WWII. All you are doing is continuing stating blatant lies despite of being disproven and insulting those who disprove you. The truth is that every time someone is disproven, this person offends the person who has proven him wrong with stupid insults .

Mmm…well, I’d say I’m sorry, but I’m not, all I’ve done is trash time after time your arguments about the Polish army, and European “weakness”, if reality is too much of a shock to you, it’s not my fault.
Anyway, the mere statement about the Polish Armed forces which are completely inferior to French and German armies, is nuts, Poland still uses T-72! (upgraded…big deal, Leclerc and Leopard 2 would run over them like grass)

Yet you are the one insulting foreign countries calling their arsenals “weak” when the country you dare call the “most decent army” in continental Europe, is clearly inferior to all those mentioned, not to even mention the fact, France has nukes, which Poland does not, same for Carrier and power projection capability, both of which Poland lacks.

Buying 50 F-16 and Patria AMV does not make Poland the “most decent” in continental europe army, sorry. I give you links, you give nothing. Am I making myself clear?
If you remember, you are the one that states Europe is NOT powerful, not me, so once again, I’ll have to show you why Europe is powerful (except maybe Poland)

No, he didn't. He just stated incorrect generalisms about the US economy and didn't back them up with proof. On the other hand, I have posted the detailed truth about the US economy and backed that up with links to websites that prove tham I am right.

He gave you proof, he gave you links, you gave the CIA factbook…if your knowledge of military equipment is the same than economics, well…there’s really not much to say to you

Yeah, I'm the least credible person after you.

Mmm…nah, it’s more like you have no credibility, you talk nonsense (and I’m not the ONLY one saying that) you are disproved and all you do is respond with either the CIA factbook, or insults, so sorry

Once again you have shown that you don't read my posts. How do you want to debate with me then, if you don't read my posts? I said that Poland is the only country IN CONTINENTAL EUROPE that has a decent military.

No it’s not, it uses old equipment: Proof from: Polish Land Forces Equipment
So here goes your “most decent army in continental Europe”:
Poland has:
T-72M1
PT-91 (upgraded T-72)
Leopard 2

First two options are no game against French Leclerc, more modern, and better equipped than either. Same goes for Leopard 2. Poland has not enough Leopard 2 to counter France’s 355 Leclerc, Poland only has 128 Leopard 2. The Netherlands has more, 326, and so does little Switzerland, 380 of them. Germany has…the small number of 852 of them, not to forget that Poland uses the Leopard 2A4, while Germany employs the A4, as well as the A5 and A6 versions, improved versions of an already good tank. Seems to me like they have lots more of modern tanks than the 128 Poland has…mmm, I Think Poland might not be what you want it to be. Lol, Turkey has more of them than Poland…298.

Next…Air Defense...let’s see what the most decent army in continental Europe has to offer shall we?
Man Portable SA-7 Grail
Well, unless you’re shooting a B-17, will not work against any modern aircraft whatsoever used by your fellow European neighbors, and Planeman can prove me wrong if I am.
Grom
Another very short range missile, barely 5km, again, no game against high flying targets, which nowadays are most.
S-200
Already phased out of service by the Russians, has a large minimum range, and was designed against high altitude bombers, not fighters.
SA-4 Ganef
It’s enormous range makes it dangerous; however, the missiles are quite large and unlikely to hit small, maneuverable aircraft like fighter jets unless they are caught unaware.
SA-6
Another old system, somewhat more effective than the past equipment mentioned, worked in 1973 against Israeli craft, but tactics have changed, still don’t see it as s credible threat
SA-8 Gecko
Yet another low altitude short range missile.
mmm…Air Defense doesn’t look good, huh? does it? Is that what you call Defense Capability?

Helicopters? Well Poland has 44 Mi-24 Hinds against France’s 80 Eurocopter Tiger, more modern and well equipped as well…
And Germany has 80 as well (I’m comparing dedicated attack helicopters)
So that pair of countries you deem weak, have more and better equipment than Poland
Needless to say is the technological and numerical gap between French/German, and Poland’s air forces
So the question, what in the world makes you think France and Germany are weaklings?…anything to say to that?

PS: France and Germany both troops deployed all over the world in peace missions
So much for lack of capability to project power (unless power projection means attacking and occupying a country, which I guess you will say)
Links to information
French Army
German Army
Polish Armed Forces

You mean he doesn't understand economics because he isn't admitting that the US is a declining power and is heading for an economic doom

As I have proven the US is not a declining power and not heading for economic doom.

If you see the previous pages you see I used two sources: the Wallstreet Journal and the Cheuvreux gold report, both trustworthy sources.

This is exactly the tactic that ignorant people use: because they are not able to admit being wrong when they are, they dismiss other people's proof and claim that only their sources of information are credible.

the figures in his sources are firstly: from older years

The figures from the CIA World Factbook are from 2005.

and secondly, from the government that deliberatly adjust the rates.

You lack any credentials, so you are not a person that could claim to know the truth better than the Fed.

And finally, he only uses biased and unreliable sources

As I said, the tactic that ignorant people use is dismissing other people's proof and claiming that only their sources of information are credible.

Regarding Poland, currently it's a strong country, but in the future it won't. Most people, including myself, are emigrating, most of them to the US. Poland is dying.

The idea that Germany is a powerful country is ridiculous. Their population is comprised mostly of old people. No nation is ever going to be a power if it is comprised of retirees.

PS: France and Germany both troops deployed all over the world in peace missions

The reason for why is that they have rented transport planes/helicopters from other countries.

Polish Armed forces which are completely inferior to French and German armies

On the contrary, it is the French and the German militaries that are inferior to the Polish armed forces. You are ignoring the fact that unlike the Polish military, the French and the German militaries are not true militaries, but just means of employing people.

you are disproved

You are the one disproved. You are the one saying rubbish. I am the one who is countering that rubbish with links to websites that prove you wrong.

and all you do is respond with either the CIA factbook,

The CIA World Factbook was not the only information source I used. But because you don't read my posts, you don't know about that.

or insults

Another blatant lie. YOU are the one who is using insults, not me. YOU are the one who called me a "caveman". YOU are the one who said that I have no brain (which is wrong).

Yet you are the one insulting foreign countries calling their arsenals “weak”

This is not insulting, this is merely pointing out the truth.

when the country you dare call the “most decent army” in continental Europe, is clearly inferior to all those mentioned

In terms of salaries for soldiers, yes. In terms of military power, no.

not to even mention the fact, France has nukes, which Poland does not, same for Carrier and power projection capability, both of which Poland lacks.

That is irrelevant, because none of that has been used in real combat. BTW, Poland has fought Germany during 8 wars and has won every one of them. If it fought Germany again, the Jerries would get mowed down like grass.

Buying 50 F-16 and Patria AMV does not make Poland the “most decent” in continental europe army, sorry.

This is true. What makes the Polish military the most decent in Continental Europe is that its soldiers are lower paid than those of any other NATO military except for Turkey. The Polish military, unlike the French and the German militaries, exists to fight, not to provide lifetime jobs for the unemployed like the French and the German militaries.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter]

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter

Regarding Poland, currently it's a strong country, but in the future it won't. Most people, including myself, are emigrating, most of them to the US. Poland is dying.

Mmm...no, it's a weak formerly communist country, with recovering economy far, far away from those economies of countries you deem "weak". Weaker military forces than France, or Germany, a lower GDP, lower literacy, all this on account to Former Cold War.

By your means of measuring power, Belarus, Ukraine, Romania and Slovakia are all powerful as well. Not so, sorry. Germany and France, as well as Spain, and Italy, have all better trained and equipped militaries. Netherlands alone has more modern MBT than Poland, as well as Switzerland.

No wonder you love the US if you're moving there, and that's ok, but you can't speak about countries militaries you don't know anything, or economics.

The idea that Germany is a powerful country is ridiculous. Their population is comprised mostly of old people. No nation is ever going to be a power if it is comprised of retirees.

Lol, you find that ridiculous? Now imagine stating Ruanda is more powerful than China? That's how nuts your statement on Polish power is, maybe you'll understand everyone's point of view now...

The reason for why is that they have rented transport planes/helicopters from other countries.

Well, I'm afraid you've offered no proof of that, and there's no trace of it in the internet, maybe is another "ghost" historic claim, such as that german "offensive" I debunked?

Originally posted by NoobCommando
I wonder what will happen to individual countries armed forces within Europe if the EU do go ahead and build their own armed forces? I'm glad Britain is not fully apart of the EU yet, because I really don't want to lose my countries history to some beauracrats (is that right?).

Lol..nope, England is one of the founding members of the European carbon and steel free market, the predecessor of the EEC, BTW, France was not! Uk is now a full member of the EU...You Had the rotating presidency 1 year ago!

The only "Continental thing" UK didn´t followed ...yet... is the Euro € but sooner or latter you´ll have to Adopt the Currency...

fred

with recovering economy far, far away from those economies of countries you deem "weak".

Incorrect. The fact that Poland's GDP is still lower than that of France or Germany doesn't mean its economy is weaker than the French and the German economy.

Poland's economic growth rate is higher than that of both France and Germany, and Poland has a lower budget deficit and a lower debt burden. By any measure of economic power (hours worked, budget deficit, debt burden, economic growth rate) Poland is outperforming France and Germany. Links:
www.cia.gov...
www.cia.gov...
www.cia.gov...

Lol, you find that ridiculous?

Retirees don't work, but require pensions. What workers are going to work for these pensions?

[edit on 31-7-2006 by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter]

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter

This is exactly the tactic that ignorant people use: because they are not able to admit being wrong when they are, they dismiss other people's proof and claim that only their sources of information are credible.

I assume you talk about yourself right? Seems all links EVERYBODY else uses are worthless, except yours of course...

The figures from the CIA World Factbook are from 2005.

I'd guess the CIA World Factbook would be in trouble if they spoke badly about their OWN country, wouldn't they? That's called Bias...just so you know

You lack any credentials, so you are not a person that could claim to know the truth better than the Fed.

He might not have credentials, but the link he provided, DO have credentials, is that so hard to grasp? That's why links are given...

As I said, the tactic that ignorant people use is dismissing other people's proof and claiming that only their sources of information are credible.

As you do, every single time your proven wrong, which is well...all the time

The reason for why is that they have rented transport planes/helicopters from other countries.

No proof of that…makes one wonder…

On the contrary, it is the French and the German militaries that are inferior to the Polish armed forces. You are ignoring the fact that unlike the Polish military, the French and the German militaries are not true militaries, but just means of employing people.

Quite not, you were given proof Germany and France use better and more equipment, yet somehow Poland remains tops? Sometimes you have to accept the truth, no matter how awful it is...

You are the one disproved. You are the one saying rubbish. I am the one who is countering that rubbish with links to websites that prove you wrong.

No see, I discualify your posts by giving proof, you've given me NO LINK whatsoever to prove me wrong...sorry if I'm going to hard on you

The CIA World Factbook was not the only information source I used. But because you don't read my posts, you don't know about that.

No, I assume you use others, but the other big source you use besides the CIA World Factbook is your imagination...it's nice to dream, isn't it?

Another blatant lie. YOU are the one who is using insults, not me. YOU are the one who called me a "caveman". YOU are the one who said that I have no brain (which is wrong).

Oh, I'm sorry If I hurt your feelings, no more Caveman then...and well, if you considered you have a brain, you wouldn't take that as an insult. Fine, that was wrong, You do have a brain, and it has to be HUGE to house that imagination of yours, satisfied?

This is not insulting, this is merely pointing out the truth.

Fine, if France and Germany are weak, Poland is non-existent. Let’s all point out the truth your way, it’s not insulting, at all

In terms of salaries for soldiers, yes. In terms of military power, no.

In terms of salaries, training and equipment yes, in any other sense…no
Old Russian equipment equals no power, sorry

That is irrelevant, because none of that has been used in real combat. BTW, Poland has fought Germany during 8 wars and has won every one of them. If it fought Germany again, the Jerries would get mowed down like grass.

Ooh, so now power projection is irrelevant? Seems a bit contradictory…
Oh sure, they could have fought 20 wars, but that is irrelevant, what is important, is that the last major modern conflict (WWII, so you don’t get lost) was lost by Poland.

Soviets and Americans, as well as British and other allies, who actually had equipment, and were not supplied by other countries, won that war.

I bet Poland would “mow” down those “Jerries” with those Mig-29 that were sold to Poland for 1 euro each (symbolical, Poland didn’t have the bucks for them), which of course are much more modern and better equipped than EF-2000

Then, Poland would absolutely run over the modern MBT Leopard 2A6, which outranges, outguns, and is better equipped that those great T-72 (great buy, ask Saddam how do they work, they almost hit an Abrams once I think)

And would protect it’s land against bombing with those very, very powerful SA-7 manpads…(as in Man Portable) which have no hope of shooting down…well I’m guessing Luftwaffe won’t be using Stukas anymore…

Fact is, if Poland fought Germany again, Germany’s border would know be with Ukraine, and Poland would be turned into German provinces.

You’re fun to talk to, I didn’t know so much imagination could fit in such a HUGE BRAIN, (not small by any means, just to clarify)

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
I assume you talk about yourself right? Seems all links EVERYONE else uses are worthless, except yours of course...

No, because I'm the only participant of this debate who uses links.

I'd guess the CIA World Factbook would be in trouble if they spoke badly about their OWN country, wouldn't they? That's called Bias...just so you know

As I said, the only resort of ignorant people when they are disproved is to dismiss the proof the people that have disproven them are using. In this case, you are calling the CIAWF biased.

He might not have credentials, but the links he provided, ARE credible, is that so hard to grasp? That's why links are given...

Ah, another tactic of the ignorant people: claim that your links are the only credible ones, and claim that any links to American websites are not credible.

As you do, every single time your proven wrong, which is well...all the time

No, it's you who's doing that. You are the one who said that the CIA World Factbook is not credible.

No proof of that…makes one wonder…

By "projecting power" I mean "projecting power independently". The US has the ability to do so, France and Germany do not. What if their allies refused to help them?

Quite not, you were given proof Germany and France use better and more equipment, yet somehow Poland remains tops?

Numbers don't matter, and regarding the quality of their military equipment, they are using inferior equipment that isn't combat-proven. The only exception to this rule is the French Mirage fighter, which has proven itself in real combat to be inferior to the F-16 (the fighter that Poland is using).

No, I assume you use others

I used two other information sources: the Fed (I said that they are credible, which they are) and a website other than the CIA World Factbook.

Poland is using Russian military equipment

Poland is now also using F-16s and German tanks.

Ooh, so now power projection is irrelevant?

Yes, because Germany and Poland are neighbouring countries.

the last major modern conflict (WWII, so you don’t get lost) was lost by Poland.

Another blatant lie. Poland didn't lose WWII. Poland has won WWII. Polish and Soviet soldiers overrun Berlin, and Polish flags were flying over the Reichstag, the Brandenburg Gate and the Siegessaeule.

Soviets and Americans, as well as British and other allies, who actually had equipment, and were not supplied by other countries, won that war.

What is relevant is who fights and wins the battles.

I bet Poland would “mow” down those “Jerries” with those Mig-29 that were sold to Poland for 1 euro each (symbolical, Poland didn’t have the bucks for them), which of course are much more modern and better equipped than EF-2000

No, Poland would just fly its F-16s, shoot down the entire Luftwaffe and destroy Germany.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter]

[edit on 31-7-2006 by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter]

Originally posted by benedict arnold
i dont think they ever will. THeir days are over. The british ditched india 60 years ago. The french are busy eating crepes and snails and the germans cant get over sauerkraut. Ok seriously they just cant get project any power nowadays. India could whip the French.

But do you think the europeans wil ever have an important part to play in world affairs in the next 100 years. I got nothing to do so please respond.

Bare in mind that all world banking is run out of Europe, the Euro is destined to be the new world orders Global currency, the test is just in Europe for now.
Europoean foreign policy is probably the worst there is but it is not highlited enough in the Press.

Trust me...Europe many many more strings than everyone thinks

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter

Poland is using Russian military equipment

Poland is now also using F-16s and German tanks.

The Polish army is only good for one thing, running from the enemy. 95% of the entire army exists of former Soviet crap. Not even from the 80s, most from the 60s and 70s. The remaining 5% exists of hand-me-downs from other countries, such as the Leopard 2A4, which powerful armies such as the German army don't use anymore (for many years). But hey, if Poland is happy with them, what does it matter?

Oh and Germany really should fear the Polish history, uhm airforce:








[edit on 31-7-2006 by Mdv2]

The Polish army is only good for one thing, running from the enemy.

If it was, it wouldn't win 8 wars against the Germans.

95% of the entire army exists of former Soviet crap.

Wrong. Poland has ordered 48 F-16s. The F-16, unlike the EF-2000, is a combat-proven fighter that has shot down 70 fighters and has never been shot down.

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter
No, only yours are worthless, because you and I are the only participants of this debate that use links.

Oh I see, nah…Mdv2 shut you up about the inflation issue, which you still won’t accept, even though he proved the US gvt systematically decreased the actual numbers…but whatever

As I said, the only resort of ignorant people when they are disproved is to dismiss the proof the people that have disproven them are using. In this case, you are calling the CIAWF biased.

Nono, it must not be biased, I mean, after it was only made by the same country they look at with an “objective” eye…yeah right

Ah, another tactic of the ignorant people: claim that your links are the only credible ones, and claim that any links to American websites are not credible.

By no means, you dismissed MY american links, so I’m entitled to do so as well. It’s not any american website I dismiss, it’s the CIA’s, sorry if nobody trusts them, must be for something…

No, it's you who's doing that. You are the one who said that the CIA World Factbook is not credible.

So you’re telling me that if I go to the official polish intelligence service link, they are going to tell me the truth about the polish crappy equipment?
No? thought so…

By "projecting power" I mean "projecting power independently". The US has the ability to do so, France and Germany do not. What if their allies refused to help them?

Yeah, the carrier France made must be made of rubber! That’s it! Oh my god, ever wondered if your genious? The french ask for permission to the US to move their carrier and amphibious vessels…wow, now THAT I didn’t know

Numbers don't matter, and regarding the quality of their military equipment, they are using inferior equipment that isn't combat-proven. The only exception to this rule is the French Mirage fighter, which has proven itself in real combat to be inferior to the F-16 (the fighter that Poland is using).

Well numbers do matter if those numbers are of SUPERIOR equipment. Yes, you’re right, Poland uses the very combat proven T-72, and it worked great, didn’t it? Oh, and that improved T-72 that is NOT combat proven either, maybe it will blow up louder than normal T-72 when hit by Leopard 2.

Oh, and about Mirage…yeah well, F-16 would never get to see them, because EF-2000 is way superior to them, as well as better equipped, remember, your just buying old F-16, and you’re facing them against impossibly outnumbered EF-2000, as well as capable ground air defense, not crappy SA-7. like Poland has.

Poland is now also using F-16s and German tanks.

You mean those 48 F-16 and 128 Leopard 2 tanks? Those, winning against 180 EF-2000 , and the tanks…well, Air Superiority does matter, ask Saddam, or the arabs that fought Israel…and those 128 tanks are impossibly outnumbered…

Yes, because Germany and Poland are neighboring countries.

Poland has NO power projection into Germany, they stand no chance of penetrating German territory, not for more than 10 seconds that is, before being blown to pieces.
Power projection is not alone being able to deploy in far countries, but to deploy in neighbors as well, Poland does not have EITHER.

Another blatant lie. Poland didn't lose WWII. Poland has won WWII. Polish and Soviet soldiers overrun Berlin, and Polish flags were flying over the Reichstag, the Brandenburg Gate and the Siegessaeule.

Yeah, Poland didn’t need the allies, the Allies needed Poland! Poland was crucial in ALL battlefields, without Poland, we’d be all speaking german…what people don’t know is that Poland was very smart. They let their cities and territory to be occupied, then their population abused and killed because that was their strategy!
They used other countries equipment because that was the original plan all along…OMG

What is relevant is who fights and wins the battles

Yep, the allies did, not Poland, they just were there for the ride, waiting someone to come liberate the country the let fall…oops
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No, Poland would just fly its F-16s, shoot down the entire Luftwaffe and destroy Germany.

Yeah, sure those rusty F-16 would shoot down 180 superior 5th generation fighters…riiight, oh, and Germany has more than Manpads for Air Defense, don’t forget that, I wouldn’t count on those F-16’s going too far…