Will the europeans ever be powerful?

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by edsinger


In the Pacific? None...zip unless you count the last three days when they grabbed some from the beaten Japanese....

So the british in asia where sitting drinking tea or whiskey right?
Also , who is a threat to you, your comment has made me wonder.....

The comment was directed at the Russians, re-read it.

I don't beleive for a second that this thread was made! Most SF units are based on SAS [British]. And what's the point in having loadz of Nukes, Britain alone could pretty much destroy the whole of the USA, but would go down with it.
All we need [UK] is enough nukes to target your major cities, your nukes [USA] will come at us, and they'll be wasted over our small country, so we'll come out on top.
Europe will play a major role in what happens in the future, as we're probally the most powerful force if combined...

Originally posted by Nexus
I don't beleive for a second that this thread was made! Most SF units are based on SAS [British]. And what's the point in having loadz of Nukes, Britain alone could pretty much destroy the whole of the USA, but would go down with it.
All we need [UK] is enough nukes to target your major cities, your nukes [USA] will come at us, and they'll be wasted over our small country, so we'll come out on top.
Europe will play a major role in what happens in the future, as we're probally the most powerful force if combined...

Come out on top ? how exactly ?

Britain would cease to exist as a country and there's a fair chance that not a single person would survive. All that would be left of the British culture would be the the expats overseas.

Originally posted by edsinger
In the European theater you are correct, in the first years with US supplied equipment, in the latter years with your own......

Yes Americans supplied aid just as they did to many other nations. But what seems to be the prevailing opinion among some is that the US supplied the USSR's entire war effort in the earlier years when that is not true, the US assistance helped greatly but wasn't a majority.

Anyways back to the bickering between Europe and America I just had to point out that America winning WWII all by itself with one hand tied behind its back and nobody did anything except for america is laughable.

thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 4-3-2005 by drfunk]

Originally posted by edsinger
You make it sound as if we do not appreciate what the UK is doing and that is so far from reality that you fail to see just how important we feel your contribution is, when I bad mouth Europe I try my damnedest to leave the UK out, but with the attitude in here by the UK members, I am beginning to wonder what will happen in the next 10-20 years.

The ones I admire most are the Aussies, in general they are more conservative about this war than the US, they see the threat with Indonesia on their doorstep. The UK's threat will be from within.

Really scary text, so rest of Europeans that didnt support war in Iraq (dont forget support in Afganistan, even today) are no good outcast? This is really black and white logic, we could go trough all the things that went before war in Iraq again and again, like no UN approval rules are made to be followed not to edit for own interests. Iraq didnt possess any threat to US and for most EU not lending its aid for US to attack defenless country is wrong? Dont forget today most invidual EU countrys pay for rebuild of Iraq and that is mostly done by US contractors, so pretty much every country capable of it pays for rebuild of Iraq and to look current situation in there its pretty imposible to think sending under UN flag troops there to secure safety cause war wasnt even justified by UN. EU's motive is build stabil continent that isnt constantly on war, for example Israel that by US interfere have kept Middle-East unstabile all this years, for EU i would see it as thorn that doesnt come off and in future perspective cause damage in eyes on other middle-east countrys and has already caused. EU will more likely need Middle-East and Africa in future interests on keeping good relations there than US that is far from bowder keg.

And if you see Australians motive as aiding ally to secure its US umbrella protection in future, then how can you Admire em? Its just for their own national interest not US, still its good to have allies and i wouldnt say Europe has abandon US as ally anyway, US just were aggressor on non-justified war and European countrys had all right to remain neutral. It wasnt for their national interests. Countrys like Poland were mostly pick in by carrot tactic, Poland received huge amount of weaponry after it joined to NATO and surely still receives same way as US arms Turkey.

In the end have to hope not many Americans go by the book on the Bush speech "your with us or against us" cause only retard can make such statement without seeing its not possible in democratic world.

Yes Americans supplied aid just as they did to many other nations. But what seems to be the prevailing opinion among some is that the US supplied the USSR's entire war effort in the earlier years when that is not true, the US assistance helped greatly but wasn't a majority.

AID??????? we had to pay for each and every bullet, bomb and tank we got from them via gold tranfers, lend lease, bases etc. In fact we are still paying for it. It wasn't aid it ws business. They wern't getting their factories bombed on a regular basis so were able to supply our required demand. It wasnt some benign gift from an overley generous US.

edited to correct my lousy spelling
[edit on 4-3-2005 by paperplane_uk]

[edit on 4-3-2005 by paperplane_uk]

calm down paperplane_uk i didn't say the UK did I??

and if you want to talk about aid what about the few US pilots who fought along with the RAF during the battle of britain? I must say that was pretty good of them.

thanks,
drfunk

Originally posted by drfunk
calm down paperplane_uk i didn't say the UK did I??

and if you want to talk about aid what about the few US pilots who fought along with the RAF during the battle of britain? I must say that was pretty good of them.

thanks,
drfunk

They all volenteered, along with pilots from many other countries in the Empire and across europe, particulary French and Polish. As it happened It was a major break for the US as they were your only pilots with actual combat experience in 1941 when you entered the war. They were able to pass on the skills they had learnt to the rest of the army air corps

Originally posted by paperplane_uk

Yes Americans supplied aid just as they did to many other nations. But what seems to be the prevailing opinion among some is that the US supplied the USSR's entire war effort in the earlier years when that is not true, the US assistance helped greatly but wasn't a majority.

AID??????? we had to pay for each and every bullet, bomb and tank we got from them via gold tranfers, lend lease, bases etc. In fact we are still paying for it. It wasn't aid it ws business. They wern't getting their factories bombed on a regular basis so were able to supply our required demand. It wasnt some benign gift from an overley generous US.

edited to correct my lousy spelling
[edit on 4-3-2005 by paperplane_uk]

[edit on 4-3-2005 by paperplane_uk]

Yeah, the U.S. did make the British pay for a good deal of that aid, but that was because the U.S. itself would've had trouble paying for it. We were in one of the greatest economic depressions in history, so the U.S. needed the $$$. I do believe the U.S. provided naval security to British ships up to Greenland though, then the British would take it from there.

Yeah, the U.S. did make the British pay for a good deal of that aid, but that was because the U.S. itself would've had trouble paying for it. We were in one of the greatest economic depressions in history, so the U.S. needed the $$$. I do believe the U.S. provided naval security to British ships up to Greenland though, then the British would take it from there.

your right but we would have paid for them even if you hadn't been in a depression. the Uk is not the sort of country to look for handouts even at its most difficult times. As far as i know it was just in US teritorial water that naval security was available, for all countries involved, while you were still neutral

Paperplane you have to understand that as far as some on the US 'right' are concerned Europeans (including the UK) didn't pay, at the time, top dollar for any of the 'aid' we recieved.

Neither did 'we' receive loans which our governments will be repaying for many decades yet.

Nor did the US acquire huge tracts of enormously valuable strategic land (what a bonus Guam has been for them, huh?)

......and to top it all decades of full and free US access to European markets post-WW2 is of no consequence whatsoever.

It was all a one-way street of US compassionate bounty coming 'our' way.

Ain't we lucky?



(sadly some of these guys really do see these things so laughably)

If the truth is spoken about upon this forum, the fragile existance of the whole universe is at sake! America did everything and Europe nothing!

Stop with your lies!

STOP I SAY!

Well then lets just say the UK could have defeated the 35-40% of the German forces that were deployed on the Western Front, The US did nothing but give them old broken down ships and planes, gave them loans at outstnading interest rates and the poor UK is still paying payments and will until 2075..........

What #E!

You Brits need to calm down, no one is putting the UK in a bad light or at least I am not, I do put the 'other' Europeans in that light though...the NATO countries in General and the 'French' along with them.

It is not that we did it all, it is that we are sick of being told we did nothing and it all being the damn Americans fault for everything.

Originally posted by edsinger
Well then lets just say the UK could have defeated the 35-40% of the German forces that were deployed on the Western Front, The US did nothing but give them old broken down ships and planes, gave them loans at outstnading interest rates and the poor UK is still paying payments and will until 2075..........

No cause that would be untrue.
We want atleast to have our efforts shown instead of swept under the carpet, as usual.

You Brits need to calm down, no one is putting the UK in a bad light or at least I am not, I do put the 'other' Europeans in that light though...the NATO countries in General and the 'French' along with them.

You attack a european country you attack us, they are our direct blood relitives.
[qutoe]
It is not that we did it all, it is that we are sick of being told we did nothing and it all being the damn Americans fault for everything.

You guys started it, I cant be bothered finding the quote....
2 am what am I doing here???

Actually, I'm born in England but I have more Russian and America blood in me then 'direct European' Countries. If someone attack 'France' or 'Spain', that's who they've attacked - simple as.

Originally posted by edsinger
You Brits need to calm down, no one is putting the UK in a bad light or at least I am not, I do put the 'other' Europeans in that light though...the NATO countries in General and the 'French' along with them.

It is not that we did it all, it is that we are sick of being told we did nothing and it all being the damn Americans fault for everything.

Theres huge difference saying US did nothing and that US wasnt only one that contributed a lot of efforts on war, US stayed neutral for long time when war waged in Europe, joined after it saw interest in it and its totally logical thinking on national level, not to forget there were a lot of volunteers that came from US to fight in Europe before US officially joined it. So where you see between this lines no apprecitiation?

NATO is build generally for cold war and second Europe defence, in past NATO members have joined in many conflicts side by side with US, how can one disloyal decicion be so hard to bare when you see the facts war wasnt justified! You should look big picture and see this has been only small fracture of whole alliance and also country politics change all the time.
Try see for example the side of French that you hate so much interest in war on Iraq and what negative effects it would have on em and public opinion among em.

Well for one you feel the war was unjustified, I do not.


As for the Europe NATO being with the US, for the most part I would agree as their security depended on it for 50 years, once the threat was gone now it is time to stick it to the Americans when they can...imho


The US population was not ready for a war in Europe again, it is a bit different here when you consider that we had many in the population that were for both sides, it really wasn't our war until we realized what Hitler was up to, the Japanese were forced to attack us and that gave ol FDR what he had been wanting, the public DEMAND for war...

OK, I know you yanks are a bunch of freedom loving, liberty-huggers, but please, re-read my old post...

I WAS TRYING TO GET A MESSAGE INTO YOUR THICK SKULLS

OK, LISTEN UP!

This thread is obviously just a topic for racist idiots who like to argue to vent some steam!

The one thing I'd like to say, I doubt anyone has said this before, everyone just seems to be yappin' about "What if the US invaded Europe....", yeah, WAKE UP MC FLY, not anytime soon! The thing you Americans have to realise, (Not trying to be racist here!) is we Europeans are not like YOU! We don't go around the world, bragging about how powerful our armies, and how we are a superpower and can change the world and all this sort of crap! One thing you have to realise is, contrary to what you believe, we're not a bunch of war-loving nuts who challenge other 3rd World nations, in a effort to supposedly "democratize" them, which is by far stupid! We respect other nations and cultures, we like our peace, and we DON'T spend BILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year thinking up ingenious ways on how to kill people!!!

Get it in your head, war is NOT cool! Even as we speak, U.S. forces are in another country, trying to get rid of "weapons of mass destruction" that pose a very REAL threat and must be taken care of! Yeah right, the Iraqi War of 2003 has to be one of the most uncalled for, unjustfied war in years!!! And the war on terror, another excellent way to waste money, and gain other countrie's land and resources, let's see, what progress have the great American's made, NONE!

Let's examine the situation here:

-Have you guys caught the supposed "king of terror" Osama Bin Laden=NO!

-Have come close to stopping Al-Qaeda and closing down their terrorist cells=NO

-Have you stabilised the very hostile situation in Iraq=NO

-Have you managed to install a successful interim government in Afghanistan that the country's citizens have ACTUALLY APPROVED OF=NO

-Have contributed positively at ALL, in past 5 years to the world in way=NO

Why do Americans feel like your the World Police? Why is it you feel you must democratize every single nation on the EARTH before your satisfied that there is no evil government in any nation in the world? Why do you keep trying to disarm other countries of the world, when your defence spending yearly is a world record, and you possess the world's largest nuclear, 2nd largest chemical and biological stockpile of weapons in the world? Why must you get involved in other countrie's business, and then completely cripple them when you decide to take action and invade them? Why are you targeting all these 3rd World, Middle-Eastern nations, as the "homeland of terror", if anything America's Military is one of the most terrifying in the world, and if you think your country doesn't have problems, TAKE A DAMN LOOK:

-Highest rate of death by firearms every year=America

-Highest Defence budget spending in the world=America

-Only country to be involved in all the major conflicts of the past 20 years apart from Britain, UN, and NATO=America

-The leader of the war on terror, that has made no progress in stopping terrorism at all, seems more like to turned into a crusade against foreign nations=America

-Largest Nuclear weapons stockpile of around 10,000=America

-One of the world's most unapproved presidents in modern history, that has been elected for a 2nd term, and has an average approval rating of 38% in opinion polls by its OWN people=America

-Is America the land of the free, when powerful corporations can silence dissidents like Michael Moore, a citizen=No

-Is America the land of plenty, when one household in thirteen lives in a trailer=NO

-Does the US have the best way of life, when in a BBC poll, 96 per cent of foreginers interviewed in Germany, England, Australia and from Russia out of almost 10,000 say that they wouldn't want to live in America=NO (In the same poll, 1 Australian in 100 says she wouldn't prefer to live in America.)

-Is America the safest country in the world when it has some of the world's most ridiculous gun laws resulting in the death of almost 12,000 citizens every year, just because it's part of a constitution written back when America had no defence force=NO

-Is America truly the beacon of justice, when it tortures prisoners of war in Iraq and Guantanamo Bay=NO

-Is America truly the cradle of democracy, when its president is elected by a minority=NO

-Is America one of the world's least polluting and fossil emission producing nations=NO

-Is America one of the smartest nations in the world, when the general populous have an average IQ of 82=NO

-Is America a clean, crime-free, peaceful nation, when Drug-Trafficking into the United States is making a profit of around $120 billion dollars, and when overall Drug Use in America is estimated to be around 29%, and when violent crimes in the U.S. like murder, attempted murder, grevious bodily harm and man slaughter are second only to some nations in South America and Africa=AND NOPE

A RESOUNDING NO AND AMERICA! The signs of a sick, sad nation.

Behind it all, you can find a powerful blend of ignorance, hypocrisy, and obedience. It’s a kind of disease, something I call the ‘IHO Syndrome’: I for ignorance, H for hypocrisy, O for Obedience. Under its influence, lies become truth, wrong becomes right. Peace becomes war, justice becomes torture.

I'm not saying every American is bad, but your country is FAR from perfect!

So please, before you go around saying U-S-A! U-S-A! and blabbing on about how powerful you are, take a good long look at your own nation and what it's doing to the world and itself! Face it, America is slipping, other nations are going to become more powerful than, nobody lasts, so don't be so thick-headed and deny that America isn't a Superpower, sure it maybe NOW, but resentment towards the US is growing, I'd would be VERY careful if I were George Bush, but of course I'm not. Americans are jealous because they won't be able to control the world and influence it like they always have, because other nations are becoming more powerful!

Please realise, it is not about who's got this and whose got that, and which country has a got a bigger army and blah blah blah blah.... you Americans are forcing all of these bad things on yourselves, that why your society is SO corrupt, it's CORRUPTED FROM WITHIN! Your lifestyle is practically controlled by the government and other power corporations and people without you knowing it!

I will leave it at that as I could go on forever: On a final note here's a famous blog called "I don't want to be an American":

I'm 28 years old. I don't want to go through the next 50 years of my life living in an international air of worry and uncertainty. I don't want to live in a permanent state of fear, generated by a megalomaniacal American government taking advantage of the majority low IQ populous' capacity for being brainwashed.

I don't want to live like Israel, fighting militant Muslims round every corner. The problem of Muslim extremists exists and needs to be dealt with, not encouraged by invading innocent countries and waging war on people who have done nothing to deserve it. I want my children to grow up in a world free from military oppression and I want a government that understands that the wars of the future are guerrilla ones which can never be won, even if they are waged for noble purposes (which theirs never are)....
Read the rest of the article here

P.S. Oops, I left out some more stuff, those incidents regarding America exporting children to various parts of the world for the global sex trade, or all those charges of childen abduction that go in the United States, and how 58,000 children were abducted in 1999, and all those paedophilia and child pornography charges made about High Ranking US officials, politicians, police and the list goes on and on... There sooo many problems with the U.S. right now you couldn't fit into a 1000 pages. But I'm sure we can sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened right? Just like you guys do with most of your problems...

So please, before you go yelling about how Europe is a craphole, and we have sooo many economic, humanitarian and political problems and such, which I ADMIT, Europe does have problems but so does some of your supposed research and facts, TAKE A GOD DAMN LOOK AT YOUR OWN COUNTRY'S PROBLEMS AND SHUT YA MOUTH! BECAUSE YOU CAN'T TALK! THANKYA MA'AM, AND LIKE TO GO TO LIKE YOU KNOW, HELL!

*Trimmed copy-paste*

[edit on 7-3-2005 by dbates]

NO!

As individual countries, NO!

Why?

Because we'll be too busy in Brussels or wherever, argueing about some Resolution or other and we'd be squabbling over 'who does what and when'.

There are too many hidden agendas in the EU and until they are sorted out and the corruption done away with, nothing will ever be squared away.

And who would lead us?

The French - don't make me laugh! They'd run away as soon as they could.

The Germans - they'd love to. Finish off what they started in 1937.

The Italians - only if they could drive all the fast cars.

That leaves us. No way!

Would you want to be lead by the nose by a guy who you wouldn't buy a second hand car from?

Oh crap! I just realised................................ we are!

This thread... it is so sad that:

-there is so much of this "If-we-didnt-you-couldnt-etc" attitude in here.

- Americans in here still equal power with military power. As if there had not been any civilian development since the big wars.

-Brits are trying to prove their worth by forcing others to cheer their oh so quality military, their involvement in various some-just-some-not conflicts where they did the US´s dirty work

-right-wingers seem to see what they call so deliberately "liberalism" as being the evil of the world and nothing else(I am no particular leftie)

-People in general refer to europe as a whole and then several countries in particual just as it fits the needs of their argumentation. Ok I dont claim to understand the subtle details of USA state system either but the view many Americans in here seem to have on europe and particularly the EU, what they think it works like and what it should do and not do shows a decent lack of knowledge of what is going on here.

-There still is this utterly ridiculous bashing on France based on propaganda and the need of people to create a "bad side" so they can be on the "good side" (I am not french and I have no other ties to her). What did they do, perform bad in ONE war? You call them cowards because it makes you feel good and you completely disregard that France has a history of having great international influence, military successes and has fought very many of its own battles without seeking for allies like other countries do.

Maybe thats it, my guess is the angloamerican world cant stand that France didnt show the longlasting and expected thankfulness for being helped. Was it that they left the NATO, so US could not have a direct influence over it anymore? Let me remind you its a sovereign country. And as a sovereign country its decisions are free and NOT mainly to piss off US and their allies but rather to keep national interests and stability upright. Enough said.

+++++

The question is not "will europeans ever be powerful" but rather "WHY or WHEN". It is very simple, the world is in an ongoing change and despite having a somewhat slow speed europe is the worlds part with the most innovative and adorable changes in politics and society.

Yes, Brussels does not seem to act like it should. Yes, many european projects fail. Yes, there are things where we ran in the wrong direction. But let me do a simple analogy: how long did it take for mankind to fly? When one advances to "boldly go where noone has gone before" that will always lead to failures (poor Otto Lilienthal died, too) but in the long run we will succeed and everyday EU and europe becomes a more interesting place.

WHY should it be powerful? Because the time has come to leave the constraints of the cold war. NATO has lost its meaning, because we do not need nuclear protection anymore. Yes that is what NATO was, a huge mousetrap that russia knew would strike when they ever unleashed force on europe. NOONE can say what the outcome of a conventional war would have been, but it was in the US best interest to keep europe from a nuclear attack.

For 50 years we did what americans told us and gladly did so. But times have changed. What we have now is one continent that seems to have realized this whole military-power-at-all-costs does not work anymore, that tries to remain on the civilian path unless other means are necessary, and another continent actually thinking about employing nukes to get rid of unwanted opposition.

US blames several countries of abandoning them when they need allies, but the point you miss is that we do not want to take the aggressor role more than it is needed. You WILL have to realize in the future that this military based agenda is not the way to handle the world. More power lies in being able to convince others of your views than forcing them on others.

+++++

And that leads me to WHEN europe will be powerful: we are! Europe is the basis, and EU is the crown. We managed to unite 25 countries to submit to each other, to look at each other on the same level, to drop centuries-old resentments and fears, to distribute roles to fit the needs. We managed to put up the Euro, imagine abandoning your own currency (that always is part of the culture) and maybe you see how much effort it takes to go our way. In a few years the Euro will be the dominating currency in the world. We are many and one at the same time.

I think it is safe to say 95 % of the world admires our accomplishments, EU and most of its single countries are well liked all over the world. Peoples (yes peoples) listen to what we have to say because they know they dont have to fear us when they watch certain rules. We do not deliberately point our finger at someone and cry "there is the bad guy" but we try to find the COMPROMISE that suits the situation best.

You will say now that this dedication is weak and going nowhere, but let me ask where your politics has lead us to? Iran could be a completely peaceful country if it has not been for your influence in the schahs regime. South and middle america has had a lot to suffer not only because of US influence, but you did a hell of a job messing things up there. And there are numerous other examples.

You are following a misguided ideology, and that some dare to ask "will europeans ever be powerful" shows you have not learnt from the past. Sooner or later the bubble of your agenda will blow up and you will be left with nothing. That is why your governments try to heat up the fear of threats that are minor or non-existent, to use shock-and-awe tactics on the whole world (anyone can show me WMDs? Havent seen some southeast of us lately...). The time will come when people are fed up with the shock, to fear things that are not more dangerous than they were before russia declined. Noone will listen to the US then when there really is a need.

You really should experience life in a civilian environment like that we have in europe. You would love it just like I do.