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America: We Need To Talk

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posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 07:21 PM
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Dear America:

We need to have a talk about subjective reality vs. objective reality.

Your perception of events and how things are do not constitute the objective, outside, and wider reality at-large.

Your beliefs, feelings, opinions ect do not constitute what is "real". This isn't a dream, and you are not lucid dreaming. This is waking reality, in which an objective and larger shared reality is happening.

Water is wet. We all agree that it is. Just because some crazy person claims it burns like fire, doesn't mean it actually does.

That person likely is mentally ill. Do you wish to be mentally ill?

You are being told all of this, because it appears Americans are wholly incapable of differentiating between subjective and objective reality. The reality YOU see through your eyes is not the only valid interpretation of things. That said, It isn't more or less valid than someone else.

You can pick and choose what to accept or reject in your own personal reality. What you don't get to do is force your perception of reality onto anyone else. This is what religious cults do to people. They force their specific version of reality onto their hapless followers. Do you want to be part of a cult?

Please America, remember that what you see/hear/experience is not the only version of reality. That is YOUR version of reality. That is your "subjective reality". Your personal view of the world and reality.

Sincerely,
-Kettu



+10 more 
posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 07:25 PM
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You made a thread saying that trump wanted tanks on his parade, and then compared him to dictators that had tanks in their parades, while the reality is a big amount of democratic countries also have tanks in their parades.

Is that what you are talking about?


+17 more 
posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 07:27 PM
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a reply to: Kettu

As soon as you start to understand this yourself, I'm sure others will follow.



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 07:27 PM
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a reply to: Indigent

The "reality" is that statements by Trump himself indicated he wanted exactly what I and others said.

The "reality" is that parades done on patriotic holidays or airshows aren't the same as an inauguration.


+7 more 
posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 07:29 PM
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The irony of this thread is palatable considering who made it.



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 07:30 PM
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a reply to: Kettu

But then someone show the missiles in JFK inauguration, your reality is so subjective



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 07:32 PM
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originally posted by: TarzanBeta
a reply to: Kettu

As soon as you start to understand this yourself, I'm sure others will follow.


I'd posit that unlike many, I happen to read Brietbart and even venture into some very, very scary places that even Trump supporters aren't willing to go. I like to know and see what others are reading and hearing.

And what I find is quite appalling. I'd offer up the argument that I find myself considerably well-read.

While people were freaking out over paid-for protestors, I dug into the issue and discovered it wasn't true. Despite trying to show this, I was shouted down by hordes of people here.

In the end, those claims were indeed proven to be false, and I was correct.



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 07:33 PM
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originally posted by: Indigent
a reply to: Kettu

But then someone show the missiles in JFK inauguration, your reality is so subjective


I must have gone to bed by the time that was brought up in the discussion; as I never said nor indicated anything about missiles in conjunction with JFK.

I am not responsible for the comments of others.



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 07:37 PM
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a reply to: Kettu

I don't know why you think going to Breitbart means anything. I don't even go there.

I just think for myself without bias, regardless of where I end up.

Seeing that Trump is President instead of Cruz or Clinton, it appears that many others do the same.



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 07:43 PM
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Is it really fair to suggest Americans suffer from a skewed perception of reality, but you don't offer what the real reality is? I am interested in hearing how my own perception is subjective, and I am assuming that you must be far superior intellectually, or you would never make such a suggestion. I'm all ears (eyes)



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 07:43 PM
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a reply to: Kettu

maybe the reality you see and experience isn't the only reality but it's the only reality YOU live, if you spend your time focusing on other people's lives you won't have time for yourself, your family or your friends.

live for your reality because doing otherwise is just idealistic delusional arrogance, you can't know the reality of everyone, you aren't a saint or a god.



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 07:48 PM
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originally posted by: Kettu
a reply to: Indigent


The "reality" is that statements by Trump himself indicated he wanted exactly what I and others said.


No. The reality is that the OP of that thread wanted it to be his/her personal reality, yet failed to provide a single quote or link in the OP attributing such a statement directly to Trump. Thus, the "statements by Trump" is unproven, and the premise fails.



That person likely is mentally ill. Do you wish to be mentally ill?


No. Do you?



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 07:51 PM
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I'm thinking that people taking this political stuff personally are living in a state of delusion. It's just politics, we get to choose between two decievers that are not really chosen by the people.

As an example, Obama takes the credit for creating a lot of jobs.

Who created more jobs in the last eight years, Obama or mother nature. If it wouldn't have been for all the forest fires and floods and wild weather, our Economy would have busted. Lets thank Mother Nature for Job creation.



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 08:03 PM
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I prefer Solipsism. It helps me sleep at night.

Wiki




Solipsism (Listeni/ˈsɒlᵻpsɪzəm/; from Latin solus, meaning "alone", and ipse, meaning "self")[1] is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist. As an epistemological position, solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure; the external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist outside of the mind. As a metaphysical position, solipsism goes further to the conclusion that the world and other minds do not exist.


So in essence, I can't be sure your mind, or reality for that matter, are real. So technically Trump, and all the problems in the world, are my fault. I dream them up because I can only be sure I'm the one that is real.

If you claim to be real as well, then I will blame you for everything so I'm off the hook. Do you want to be real?



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 08:37 PM
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a reply to: Kettu

If I'm so stupid why are you being so intentionally vague?



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 10:05 PM
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a reply to: Kettu

So?

I go to places like BuzzFeed, Politico, and HuffPo. The commentary there is every bit as scary as anything I've seen at Breitbart.

And don't even get me started on sites like Daily Kos or Daily Beast.

I also like to see how the "other side" thinks and they are scary when they get together and think they are among friends.



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 10:26 PM
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a reply to: TarzanBeta

Sadly, that is not an option here. The entire premise of this thread is an attempt at subjectively forcing the idea of objectivity down the throats of an entire country. Apparently, according to op, I must be doing that as frequently as the ridiculously loudmouthed posters on either side of the two party divide. Not because I'm actually doing that but because of my nationality. I think that about summarizes the ignorance at play here.

Also, I only chose to respond to your particular comment to say hey, neighbor. Glenville here. How's that chemical release thing going? Hope you're not one of the people affected.



posted on Jan, 21 2017 @ 10:37 PM
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a reply to: Magnivea

Actually, I think the OP is trying to label opinion with objective which is foolish.

Only facts can be truly objective although it used to be universally held that some moral truths were objective as well.

Unfortunately, the push toward moral relativism has obliterated the idea that there can actually be objective truths in society and most people are taught that reality and truth are subjective to the individual. The left used to use this as the hinge on their most cherished arguments ... Everyone should recognize "Who are you to judge?" which was the common refrain to one of the subjective or moral relativistic thoughts thrown out to justify whatever new transgression the left felt it needed to defend.

Now that moral relativism and subjective truth are permeating society all over and there are very few true walls to push against, the left is lamenting that it's own arguments no longer work because ... "Who are you to judge?"

And when you have destroyed the notion of objective truths and reality, then you have to lie in the bed you created.

Basically, all that means I'm a purple unicorn ... and you're not.



posted on Jan, 22 2017 @ 01:58 AM
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I have no problem with moral relativity, and am not at convinced that any of us can percieve objective reality exactly as it is.

However, that doesn't mean, to me, that we shouldn't judge then!

I don't even get how one leads to the other thought - what is the chain of logic? "My perception and judgement is not that of God, so it is to be rejected as useless? I'm either omniscient or nothing?

We have the ability to create meaning.... that is extraordinary, it is what makes us different from animals....why, oh why, would we not use it????

Especially since it is the meaning we create which births events, technology, systems, societies....what happens is dependant upon what type of meanings we create...and what ones we focus on collectively.

To me it is normal that humans debate, and place our different perception against each other. These are the arenas in which meanings grow, develop, and gain strength. It is normal that humans try to convince other humans to embrace theirs.

I don't think any of them are "objective", but that doesn't matter. What matters to me in such contests is asking myself - what will believing this create? What effect will it have upon my reactions to the world, upon my environment, and upon my society (if I choose to further it)?

I listen to the perceptions of others, and I examine their track records - what kind of behaviors do they have? Do I want to act like that?
How do they treat others, how do they live their life, have they been able to be constructive in their community?

Those give me indications on whether or not I would like to adopt their views and attitudes or not.

And when I see my views and meanings are causing unexpected behaviors or attitudes on my part that I did not intend, I change them. I make it known around me that I am in the market for a new outlook, and I listen to the many who propose theirs, I watch them battle with each other, I study them.

I do not at all see why things like moral relativism necessitate passivity. You make your judgements based on what you got, and you carry out your decisions.... no need for total and absolute objectivity to be an active and creative human! On the contrary, I find it indicates a daunting responsibility to each other.



posted on Jan, 22 2017 @ 04:04 AM
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Well, this turned from a discussion about objective/subjective reality into basically a:

"I dunno what that all means, but I don't agree with other stuff you post so you're wrong, I'm right and you're a hypocrite because I don't like your other views".

Okay.

I guess I should have simplified things further. I should have included definitions and examples of objective vs. subjective, as it seems those two terms aren't well understood. Perhaps they are, and people just don't care.

Look, I get it. Something that forces one to examine and possibly raise questions about their behavior is uncomfortable -- it causes defensive reactions.

So, I found a nice little video that has some wicked cool, and horribly bad (at the same time) retro 80's graphics and horrible music that "kinda sort" (you'll get it later) explains the difference.



The temperature at which Fahrenheit and Celsius meet is -32. That's an objective fact. We can take thermometers and measure that in both C and F over and over again and get the same results.

The same with the recent hoax about paid protesters. It never actually occurred. That is an objective fact. It was a fact that it never happened, it was a fact that a person invented it. It didn't seem to matter though.

The same with many of the photos about bikers for Trump. They weren't photos of bikers rallying for Trump -- some were old and from other countries. Those were misleading photos that did not truthfully represent the claims being made. That is an objective fact -- as we can all search and find the original photos and clearly see that someone intentionally used photos of other people, at other times, and even in other countries to misrepresent something. That is an objective fact.

Spicer can't say Trump's inaugration had the "most people in attendance" one minute, right after claiming no one had numbers. The two statements contradict one another, and render both statements useless. That isn't an opinion, or based on "feelings".

It's also an example of doublespeak. If I'm not mistaken I've seen a few people rightfully make comparisons to Orwell around here lately.

Now, I'm not going to fool myself. I realize many (most) won't watch a video -- even if it's hilariously bad. So, let's dive into what "objective" and "subjective" mean? I think there's a lot of confusion around here. I'll give you guys the benefit of the doubt on this.

According to the American Heritage Dictionary objective means:

-Having actual existence or reality.

-Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic.


In contast, let's look at subjective:

-Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision.

-Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience.


Now, we're certainly all entitled to our subjective thoughts and experiences. Those make us who we are, they give us all a unique perspective on the world.

We should all be eager to learn from one another, as we don't have the ability to switch our subjective viewpoint like we're surfing cable TV. We should be so lucky to have the opportunity to interact with others who see things differently.

But, sadly, it doesn't seem to work out that way. We seem to be confusing our subjective realities and experiences with objective ones -- we can't wrap our brains around the fact that our way of seeing things isn't the only way to see things.

I've heard it from liberals and conservatives. We've all heard this, "HOW can they BELIEVE that?! I just can't wrap my mind around it!"

That in and of itself isn't a big deal -- but when you make a crusade out of belittling, bullying, trolling, and behaving badly against others who have different views...you are imposing your subjective reality onto them, irrespective of whether or not your views are valid and based on hard, cold, objective truths.

In my post about the tanks and missiles on parade, I found out (on my own mind you) that DC isn't really built on a swap. What did I do? I corrected myself and tried to educate the rest of the people in the thread. I didn't want people to think I clung to some false belief simply because it helped further my own beliefs. Doing so would have been me letting my subjective feelings and reality cloud my rational thought processes.

And what's frightening and sad is that in 2017 I feel compelled that there's an actual need to have this explained to grown up American people. How incredible is that? What has happened to us as a nation and people?

In any case, can you believe that video? Damn, I knew the 80's were coming back hard but...

edit on 22-1-2017 by Kettu because: (no reason given)



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