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Chemical & Mechanical Not destructive tests Dated Turin Shroud in 1st Century.

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posted on Jan, 22 2017 @ 05:55 PM
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I have done some searches and no one it seems has tried to run a DNA analysis on the fibers.

Not experienced on this so is it possible that there is no way to run it?

There are plants that are resistant to Chlorine.




edit on 22-1-2017 by Kashai because: Added content




posted on Jan, 22 2017 @ 08:01 PM
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a reply to: Phantom423

Well, I am going to try to answer your question from a scientific and philosophical point of view.

I think the destructive nature of the C14 dating was determinant to condition the location as well as the size of the sampling, going to an area of the cloth that the people involved in the selection and taken of the sample considered it was going to produce the smallest possible damage, I am sure that was in the mind of the Cardinal who had the custody of the Shroud.

Remember that the interdisciplinary examination of the shroud of 1978 by STURP concluded that there were to many features on this cloth that were suggesting really came from the first century.

There were in STURP experts in textiles, experts in botany, experts in Art, experts in Spectroscopy, they tested the Shroud with the same technology used by NASA to evaluate samples brought from the space.

To think to damage an object that if it was proven to be authentic represented possible the most valuable Archaeological finding of History ever was a so discouraging situation, a great responsibility to assume w.r.t . future generations.

Ideally it might be better that they waited for non destructive dating technology to be devised, that is what have happened since 2013 with this Italian scientific team, but in 1980s the pressure for a soon dating was huge.

We must understand that either if we like or not the person or if we are religious or not Jesus of Nazareth is the most relevant figure of the Western civilization at least of its first millennium. His legacy is not only in the Empires that were founded in his name: Spain, Portugal, England, Russia, Austria, Germany or Russia but in the outburst of technological thinking that defines and have shaped our civilization.

The preamble of the USA Constitution following the spirit of the declaration of independence is strongly based in that Judeo Christian cosmology. Neither the ancient Egyptians or even Greeks thought all men were created equal, it is enough to read Plato o Aristotle's writings to see that.

We have the attitude to trust in our faculties to know, to achieve our most dared dreams and to create great things even making nature to obey our will based in philosophical principles of the Judeo Christian mentality that reach climax in this preacher of Galilea that lived in the first century who changed the way previous civilizations conceived their connection with nature.

We have reached with instruments the cosmos or the interior of the atom because we trusted our similarity with a superior intelligence rulling the cosmos, that is what explains why it was not China, Arabia, Iraq, India, Japan or Egypt the nations that conquered the technological revolution of the XX century but the Western world.

Our civilization is not pantheist like the Indian or Japanese, we don't believe nature is a kind of God, we are also not a contemplative civilization like the Islamic one, we don't think in a Creator power that is impersonal and distant from us.

Our civilization is based in the idea that the real power behind everything is intelligence, one that boost the universe and has granted us divine gifts to achieve our own goals.

That perspective is a revolutionary idea in History that explains our attitude and our realizations as a unique civilization among the many that have existed on this planet before us.

This is what determines the origin of the Spanish Pre-Renaissance and the Italian Renaissance as well as the German Idealism, the Russian mystical conception of Mathematics and the English Industrial Revolution.

Incredibly productive scientifical minds like Galilei, Newton, Copernicus, Kepler, Descartes, Pascal, Davinci, Markov, Tchebyshev, Riemann, Dedekind, Edison, Tesla, Marconi, only could emerge from our civilization that put humanity in a fundamental intellectually so creative position and not from other.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness
edit on 1/22/2017 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2017 @ 09:10 PM
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Your non-sec arrogance amazes me. Christianity may have dominated the last two thousand years, but that's only because they murdered and oppressed millions of people. They destroyed entire civilizations.

Christianity is nothing to brag about, and as far as advancing science, you'd better go back and read some secular books on history.

You don't know your butt from a gopher hole when it comes to who did what.

For example, you would do well to research how your precious Church treated Galileo, and hundreds of other scientists. Christianity throttled true science for hundreds of years.

Who knows where we'd be now, scientifically, if not for that despicable old boys club, the Church.



posted on Jan, 22 2017 @ 09:28 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light



Eastern Europe in the High Middle Ages was dominated by the rise and fall of the Mongol Empire. Led by Genghis Khan, the Mongols were a group of steppe nomads who established a decentralized empire which, at its height, extended from China in the east to the Black and Baltic seas in Europe. As Mongol power waned towards the Late Middle Ages, the Grand Duchy of Moscow rose to become the strongest of the numerous Russian principalities and republics and would grow into the Tsardom of Russia in 1547. The Late Middle Ages represented a period of upheaval in Europe. The epidemic known as the Black Death and an associated famine caused demographic catastrophe in Europe as the population plummeted. Dynastic struggles and wars of conquest kept many of the states of Europe at war for much of the period. In Scandinavia, the Kalmar Union dominated the political landscape, while England fought with Scotland in the Wars of Scottish Independence and with France in the Hundred Years' War. In Central Europe, the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth became a large territorial empire, while the Holy Roman Empire, which was an elective monarchy, came to be dominated for centuries by the House of Habsburg. Russia continued to expand southward and eastward into former Mongol lands as well. In the Balkans, the Ottoman Empire overran Byzantine lands, culminating in the Fall of Constantinople in 1453, which historians mark as the end of the Middle Ages.


en.wikipedia.org...



Remember that the interdisciplinary examination of the shroud of 1978 by STURP concluded that there were to many features on this cloth that were suggesting really came from the first century.



From what I have reviewed every one of those factors can be influenced by environmental conditions that would taint any evidence that the TS developed from the first century.



posted on Jan, 22 2017 @ 09:38 PM
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Beyond that and I elaborate....



The original Jews in Africa 2000 years ago were a Black African people as an ethnic group. (Massey: Egypt Light of the Word p.501) Many of them still are Black, in northern Africa such as the Falasha Jews of Ethiopia.

A New York Times editorial (3/2/84) described them as "a lost tribe that has kept its identity for more than 2,000 years in a remote corner of Africa." Abraham, ancestor of the Hebrews, was from Chaldea; the ancient Chaldeans were Black. In fact, Africa takes it name from Ophren, a son of Abraham by his wife, Keturah (Whiston: The Life and Works of Flavius Josephus p.50) Like Jesus, Mary and Joseph, the lineage of Ethiopian Emperor, Haile Selassie also goes back to Judah -- through Solomon/Queen of Sheba and King David.


religiouscrossroads.tribe.net...



posted on Jan, 22 2017 @ 09:49 PM
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a reply to: Kashai

Yeah. He certainly wasn't a 6+ foot white guy. More like a 5 foot brownish guy.

More along the lines of this....

SOURCE

Which, funnily enough, looks nothing like this...

edit on 2212017 by TerryDon79 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2017 @ 10:27 PM
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Nose size relates to the persons ability to take in oxygen. in colder environments oxygen is more concentrated that in warmer environments.

So people living in colder environments would not need large noses to take In as much oxygen as those who evolved in warmer environments.



posted on Jan, 22 2017 @ 11:44 PM
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originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: Phantom423





Our civilization is not pantheist like the Indian or Japanese, we don't believe nature is a kind of God, we are also not a contemplative civilization like the Islamic one, we don't think in a Creator power that is impersonal and distant from us.



So you are basically saying that because Christianity is anthropocentric (in some interpretations) is it superior to other systems of belief?




Abstract
Can religion contribute to a better, more ecologically balanced treatment of the environment? Since a seminal essay by Lynn White, this question has often been answered in the negative. There he exposed the dominant anthropocentric reading of the biblical tradition that has characterized the worldview of Western Christianity. This worldview provided the conditions for human exploitation of the environment. This paper will challenge the common anthropocentric reading of the Bible, arguing instead that the Bible is the product of a theocentric worldview. Humans may be singled out in the Bible for particular attention, but they are not separated out from the natural world in which they live. In the theocentric worldview of the Bible, humans and all other creatures are dependent upon God for creation and subsistence, and all alike are valuable to God as part of his creation. The world, inclusive of humans and animals, trees and plants, land and seas, belongs to God because it is God’s creation, and it is in relation to God that each part of creation has its value and worth. A non-anthropocentric reading of the Bible—putting humans in their place—provides an appropriate framework for valuing the natural world, not simply as resources for human use, but rather as the creation of God.



link.springer.com...


edit on 23-1-2017 by Kashai because: Content edit



posted on Jan, 23 2017 @ 10:03 AM
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a reply to: Kashai

Well, an anthropocentric religion is no doubt conditioning of the kind of thoughts that caused the surge for transformation of the natural conditions that is characteristic of industrialized societies.

Now Christianity is not anthropocentric just only according with certain interpretations, is radically Anthropocentric by definition, it is the only religion that claim that God descend to the level of Human condition to be like us and to try to elevate us to a higher condition through a kind of redemption, the abstract idea of God became human in the person of Christ. That claim is even blasphemy seen from the perspective of other religious traditions.

Now, you can not have such a way of thinking before to have previously accepted the possibility that man has been originally created in resemblance to divinity, that is the great contribution of Jewish religion, to let us think that our mind can understand the things that were considered exclusive domain of God in other religions or cosmologies.

If you see the map of when, where and how industrialization emerged in the world it is highly correlated with Christian nations. Now, to have an industrial revolution in Britain you must necessarily have had before PreRenaissance in Spain and Renaissance in Italy.


Societies where everybody thinks that only God can rule natural forces are constrained intellectually to live of what nature provides and never try to boost that revenue searching for artificial means of production. That is what collapsed at some point the Maya Civilization, they made marvelous cities that essentially were living from recollection of what the jungle was able to provide, something perhaps work when population is not so much dense but in demographic growing exhaust completely resources.

Societies where there is the belief that our intelligence has nothing with the ordering and power that have shaped the Universe, as it is essentially the case of Islam, can achieve a lot of interesting levels of science to understand the arrangement of the nature, they can have geometry or crystals physics or medicine but rarely arrive to the idea that power can be ruled by us or we can replace natural means of life, like horses, oxen or camels , by artificial ones, like electrical engines or automobiles.

In societies where contemplation or veneration of natural forces is the essence of their cosmology you can even develop very sophisticate martial arts for war to conquer others before to conceive industrialization as a way of economic growing. Far east arrived to XX century still living in feudalism. In those societies wealth traditionally could not be created, at most could be conquered or cultivated by understanding how nature grows.

Without a figure like Joshua Bar Josef, the historic Jesus Christ, with his radical philosophy centered in the human being our civilization might never have developed the incredible technological level that reached in the last three centuries. We can't just see Christianity from the perspective of terrible errors committed by fundamentalist fanatic people that tried to give to it a completely distorted interpretation many centuries after Christ, we need to go to its roots to understand its historic importance for Humanity.

Somebody has replied that The shroud is everything about Religion, that is a very narrow minded way of to see this, it is far of that it is one important element to understand why our civilization has shaped the modern world. Of course the Shroud itself is not as important as the legacy of who supposedly is connected with, but being confirmed as authentic it becomes a tangible element of a major figure that defines why we think in the way we think.

His legacy is everywhere present around us, even if we don't want to give to him any divine role at all in our lives or depict him with the most ugly or vulgar aspect of a person of his ethnical origin, like that funny BBC documentary conducted by Manchester University Forensic experts that have devoted their lives to study criminal science to identify bandits and assassins, and that feeds the morbid ideas of extremely resented fanatic people that evidently hate him.

I have met a lot of hebrew guys in my life that are very look like as the man of the shroud, those gens actually still exist among them and they are No blue eyed but grey, green or hazel Nor blond at all, but usually have red or brown hair.



The Angel of Lightness


edit on 1/23/2017 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 23 2017 @ 11:53 AM
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a reply to: The angel of light


This is not a religious forum so no need to elaborate but in my opinion you really have no idea what you are talking about.



posted on Jan, 23 2017 @ 01:22 PM
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a reply to: Kashai

No, you are quite wrong, there is a proven connection in between prevailing mentality and Science. I know perfectly what I am talking about , after all I am a scientist, that is my profession when I am not writing these lines, and I work at Doctoral level in scientific research so I can't ignore History of Technology.

Cosmology determines a lot the way science unfolds in a specific place and time because people think in the way they see the universe, they can't conceive ideas that violate or defy their paradigm of reality.

This is major topic in History of science and Technology, it is vital to understand why there are moments and places in which suddenly there are technological revolutions that transform everything that have not occurred for centuries in other areas.

As a matter of fact it has been already studied and exhaustively elaborated in famous essays by scientists that became interested in History of Civilization.

I suggest you to check this famous essay The Music of Spheres , part of the Ascent of Man book, written by a Mathematician, expert in Operations Research, an authority in Human evolution Jacob Bronowski, who was not a Christian at all but a Jewish, just to see how relevant it is:

books.google.com...

books.google.com...

The author received a Ph.D. in mathematics in 1935, from Cambridge University, writing a dissertation in algebraic geometry. He was lecturer here in America for Yale University and worked in research for the Salt Institute of Biological Sciences in Sn Diego, California.

Jacob Bronowski- History and Philosophy of Science

The Angel of Lightness
edit on 1/23/2017 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 23 2017 @ 04:33 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light

"Cosmology determines a lot the way science unfolds in a specific place and time because people think in the way they see the universe, they can't conceive ideas that violate or defy their paradigm of reality."

Sounds a lot like synchronicity to me.

Whats your take on the notion of predestination versus freewill? Considering ones not exactly synonymous with the other.

Fact is reality may not be as real as we seem to think.



posted on Jan, 23 2017 @ 09:14 PM
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Nature presents as probabilities and that in and of itself offers a schematic.

Perhaps Chaos theory presents as more than an artifact inherent to current observation where in case there could be a "means to an end".



edit on 23-1-2017 by Kashai because: Added content



posted on Jan, 23 2017 @ 10:00 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light


If your actually a Scientist then consider the potential of how the wave state of matter applies or otherwise translates the laws of physics.


edit on 23-1-2017 by Kashai because: Added content



posted on Jan, 23 2017 @ 11:03 PM
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a reply to: The angel of light




His legacy is not only in the Empires that were founded in his name: Spain, Portugal, England, Russia, Austria, Germany or Russia but in the outburst of technological thinking that defines and have shaped our civilization. The preamble of the USA Constitution following the spirit of the declaration of independence is strongly based in that Judeo Christian cosmology. Neither the ancient Egyptians or even Greeks thought all men were created equal, it is enough to read Plato o Aristotle's writings to see that.


Well with that convoluted thinking you would also have to excuse the Inquisition where torture was used to intimidate and even more recently the Invasion of the Middle East where Bush claimed the Military machine was doing the Judeo Christian gods work.

You can't have it both ways saying a historical Jesus was the indirect cause of these "mighty Empires" to be founded in his name without stopping and thinking about the untold human misery that it left in its wake.

Slavery condoned;
en.wikipedia.org...
edit on 23-1-2017 by TheConstruKctionofLight because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 23 2017 @ 11:10 PM
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a reply to: TerryDon79

Very good point. Its funny how the statues in Cathedrals look more along the likes of Roman Ceasars minus short hair. The glaring inconsistency is the "blue eyes" Nordic look. What better way to fool the masses and appeal to the Gentile and the world beyond Palestine than to scrub the Semitic look of their Messiah; even though its clearly stated in the old Testament that he is a descendant of David.



posted on Jan, 23 2017 @ 11:17 PM
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I found the doco that I alluded to on page 1 of this thread. The actual part regarding the patched sample starts at approx 17:00. It's very compelling evidence that the date that was given by the carbon date test is incorrect.




posted on Jan, 23 2017 @ 11:39 PM
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a reply to: TerryDon79

From the article you provided


There is the additional problem of having neither a skeleton nor other bodily remains to probe for DNA. In the absence of evidence, our images of Jesus have been left to the imagination of artists.


The picture they claim to be accurate is nothing more than a best guess, based on what other people looked like at the time. The hair and beard are open to speculation as well, take a look around you today and count how many hair styles people of the same race have.....

As for the other visible facial features in the shroud..... the cheekbones and the brow look similar enough to me. Remember, body weight affects the face. The shroud's face looks fairly thin, like a man who was pretty lean whereas the other one shows someone who is of average weight.

Given that Jesus roamed around a lot, mostly walking from place to place and seemed to rely on the hospitality of others, it is more than likely he was quite thin.



posted on Jan, 24 2017 @ 04:34 AM
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Im a scientist too, it is my profession at the Doctorate level, in fundamental physics and I cant ignore the fact that Christian thinking doesn't believe all people are born equal.
Under Judo christian thinking;
1) Women do not have inheritance rights,
2) Because of 1 women didn't have inheritance rights in most christian counties until probably the 30s or 40s (compared to Islam which gave women that right... sure at 50% of a man but 50% is better than 0%)
3) Savery is a natural state, so yeah all people are not born equal apparently
4) Control and fear being the major aspects of the religion social structure

Should point out that I went to a Catholic school also, so learnt quite a lot about said religion and can say without doubt that being a Christian gives you absolutely no advantage in science... and while the Judo Christian regions where in the dark ages, the mentality that your brain is a gift from god and inventing things is the same as worship was being practiced in the Islamic regions.

Sure you might argue that has looped around and gone in reverse, but, this is history.
As for this thread, firstly you have accused others of going off topic, and then performed massive off topic rambles yourself... you are talking about the validity of the shroud and just did a "God is great and we are superior" type speech... which is very off topic, and also very incorrect.

As for the Shroud, it almost doesn't matter what it is, the church cannot prove definitively that it is the burial cloth of Jesus, without basically admitting that either what is written in the Bible is incorrect (already pointed out) or that the translation is bad, and opening a big can of fish. Nor can they provide any evidence other than hey look its old and there is an impression of a person in it.

Radio-dating of objects is dependant on the type of object and its exposure to air. C14 forms at a roughly constant rate and so it is a fair assumption that the activity of a sample is based on secular equilibrium, it means you need carbon rich samples that are not very porous for it to be perfect. In reality though there is systematics due to environmental conditions. C14 halflife is 5700 years, so it hangs around for a good while, but the older the sample the larger the sample required to do a good job. There are also other known corrections that need to be made such as the changing CO2 atmospheric ratio, along with other things like nuclear tests which kind of make material being laid down today probably difficult to carbon date years from now...

People have attempted to basically say that C14 is unreliable but not really explained why, except to just throw it out like C14 dating is not a valid test of anything at all. XRF and IR spectroscopy are good, but once again, most people understand even less about that than C14 dating, and yet because it appears to prove what you want it to prove suddenly it is gospel (pun intended) I can, by thought experiment tell you that an object can be artificially aged rapidly due to environment, and the kinds of things looked at in XRF are not immune to that. It isn't to say the shroud underwent that knowingly... if it is fake... but it is there, hence the nearly 1000 year error bar on those measurements.

Either way, it matters little if it is fake because people see it as a holy relic.

Oh yes and the manufacture of holic relics was common, i saw you dismissed that without looking at facts. The number of churches around the world that claim to have body parts of the disciples is rather high, you'd of expected that people put them in grinders when they died. Truth is more likely that they are not real, but used as curiosities to attract people to the church. The same way that in Europe, the Christian festivals where basically moved to match local festivals to easily assimilate people into the church. Evidence of this practice is ancient, with pre-christian temples often performing magic tricks as a means to awe people and instil a fear of god.

anyway... long post... shroud... probably a fake but it doesn't matter in all



posted on Jan, 24 2017 @ 05:21 AM
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This thread would read a lot smoother without the hypocrisy and double standards presented throughout.

There is some science, some fact, but mostly religious and moral superiority being touted as the final decider as to who is right. For a thread that claims to focus on the science, there sure is a lot of religious dogma being referenced.

For what it's worth, I think all the scientific evidence in the world disproving the existence of 'holy relics' would still not be enough to alter the opinion of a believer, or humble a fanatic. When something is considered evidence that your belief system is true and real, it becomes hard to have an unbiased understanding. This thread is the perfect example of that.

Regardless, it was interesting reading the provided sources and I personally believe, as I did prior to this thread, that it's simply a manufactured relic (and the science and info provided seems to back that up).



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