Secret Socieities: The Point?

In the West, society revolves around money. We are always chasing it and rarely do anything else - even leisure time is spent in pursuits that involve it. This has a knock on effect in the way that people look at themselves and look at their surroundings. They tend to concentrate purely on the physical and neglect the spiritual. That's not a weakness in the way that you describe - just the way of life that has evolved.

Let me explain a bit by what I meant by "weak." Please, do not take it in a bad way: perhaps a euphamism that is synonymous with "weak" would have been a better choice. I feel that secret clubs, like the Masons, where you climb up a degree structure, getting awarded ribbons, medals, and such is for people who need the motivation of those elements to continue in their quest for truth (knowledge). Some of us just go to University, of course driven by, in part money, but not completely, and study by virtue of our own drive. The only reward after passing a test is maybe a beer if one can afford it. Why not just go to the library, a good one, and spend your leisure time their, filling your boots? Why do you need a club to show you knowledge? What do they have that modern society does not? I MUST admit, there is something quite excellent about a group of like-minded people discussing books and topics in an academic fashion, and if that is why you go to the club, then in part, I retract my comments. However, why not just meet in open forums and places and throw out the secrecy, the medals, the outfits, etc.? I have probably the same intellectual leveled conversations with colleagues at bars, nightclubs, and such than you guys do at your lodges and other like places. I strongly feel that a self-motivated person willing to learn needs not any secret society to obtain and contemplate the most important questions of our day. In this way, he is free from the chains of any organisation that may hinder his progress.

In terms of the "way life has evolved", I agree, and I think secret societies are there to fill a void in society, and that void is larger in NA than in Europe, and perhaps other places. The only reason I compare Europe to NA is that I have lived and worked in both places (most of the big cities in a certain part of NA). I have also lilved and worked in some of the largest centers in Europe, even the Smallest ones! and have a good stock of experience upon which to derive my conclusions.

In the East, poverty actually leads to soul searching. People don't live in a ratrace and they have more time to analyse themselves. Much of Eastern philosophy was bred from poverty. It is the misery that is a catalyst. People analyse to try to overcome that misery and this can involve the study of the spiritual.

Yup, I totally agree.

But when you compare the two societies, there isn't necessarily an overall scenario where one is stronger than the other. Although one may be weaker in the physical, the other is weaker in the spiritual and there is a lack of balance in both.

Given my experience, I don't agree with your balance statements here. I think Europeans are more "balanced" than NA's.

By the way. It should be noted that Freemasonry is a worldwide Fraternity. It exists in the East, just as it does in the West. This tends to be in the more democratic societies based on Capitalism where there needs to be a balance between physical and spiritual. I can also tell you that Freemasonry in Europe is not exclusively made up of the rich and powerful

My hypothesis does say otherwise. I guess the only way to find out is to look at the membership lists at tally up the profiles of each member in Europe and in NA. As for poverty, I totally disagree. Western and Eastern Europe are totally different. In Germany (over 400 Euro's per month) for example, Social Security if much, much higher than it is in say, Poland ($120USD per month), or the Czech Republic or the Ukraine or Russia, etc. True, life is more expensive there, but you can still by cheap food, and that is the bottomline. POVERTY: peoples teeth are rotting, they are dirty, not thinking clearly because they are hungry, and they go to the streets to sell things to survive. I am quite certain these people are not thinking about Freemasonary. The national unemployment rate is some parts of Eastern Europe is 20% or more. Some places within those countries have unemployment rates over 70%.

You say that everyone has a right to knowledge. I disagree. Everyone has a right to look for knowledge, but it should never just be handed to anyone on a plate as, in the wrong hands, it can be a recipe for disaster.

Freedom is a bitxh, but who are you or anyone else to decide if I should be given knowledge or not? What is your criteria? What makes you a person to decide that? Because you really cannot predict the future. This comes down to the overarching moral axioms a society chooses to start with. For example, one moral axiom in NA is (1) Each person is granted Freedom.... which gives them the right to pursue their goals, their dreams, to speak their mind under the umbrella of freedom of speech. What you are saying is typical of elitism and control, and I oppose it, as I am sure many others do too. If you give people in a society fundamental rights such as freedom, sometimes people do the wrong thing, even people in our precious Government. Of course, some pieces of information should, at times, be concealed form the public for the GOOD of the country (i.e. if one is at war, you don't give away your plan of attack). But knowledge?

And it's not even a case of wether or not you are "worthy" as you state. It's wether or not you want to even look in the first place. But that is neither here nor there where Freemasonry is concerned. It does not bestow some "quick fix" of knowledge, nor is any man who expects to have it fall in front of him ever likely to receive it. Knowledge has to be earned.

Why not leave it up to people do discover it themselves? We have a school system that I feel is pretty good in terms of giving you a multi-angeled view of the world, specially at good Universitites. Those that aren't interested like some of us will just die ignorant. That is the thing: freedom, it is a bitxh.

This is not the sole preserve of a "secret society" - it is a fundamental fact of life that can be found in any group of human beings which is based on education. One may attend school or college, but if one doesn't enrol in the first place or doesn't attend the lessons there can be no repercussion for failiure except upon the individual. Religions work the same way too. One can attend church or read the Bible, but if the brain isn't actually put into gear, the whole exercise is pointless.

Sounds like you are advocating a "force-feeding" approach to awarding people with knowledge.

Sure, the individual may be able to search for answers on his own. But it's much healthier to look with others. That's not a weakeness, but a basic human trait - ever since the days of the caveman, human beings have huddled together for warmth, safety, education and the sense of wellbeing that only contact with another person can give you.

Yup, as I said, I agree with this totally. But minus the meals, the robes, and the secrecy.

Finally, I would have to utterly disagree that religion is more prevalent in European society than it is in the US. Maybe in the poorer Eastern nations of Europe, religion plays a large part, but certainly in the West it is often sidelined and church attendances are at a record low. This again would illustrate how poverty leads to a search for the spiritual and how wealth serves to fuel it's neglect.

I don't think you are correct. Go look at the stats. Morever, do Americans even know what is going on in the church?

But aside from that, secret societies: I feel are for (1) the rich and powerful to network and plot (2) the weak who have little internal motivation to pursue knowledge; for people who need external motivation like medals, costumes, rank structures and such to study; for people who need to feel like they belong to something. For me, I just go to the library, read, and then discuss with colleagues. No big secret! And we talk about everything from Botany to Aliens to Mathematics.

I'd just like to raise a couple of points regarding your last post.

I believe that you hold some misconceptions about Freemasonry. There is no reward structure in Freemasonry. I can understand that medals may be miscontrued as such, but they each have symbolic meaning and are therefore there to remind the wearer rather than to inform anyone else. There is a saying in Freemasonry - "the Office seeks the man, not the man the Office". I take this to mean that only hard work will see a man progress, but even then, there is no guarantee. The rewards of Freemasonry are an entirely personal thing and are not bestowed by the Order itself. Sure, we get "50 year service to Freemasonry" medals and we may even receive a medal for donating to certain charities, but this is outside of the context that we are discussing here. Degrees certainly aren't rewards - they are elaborations on the basis of Freemasonry - the first Three Degrees.

I agree with you that philisophical discussion can be held in a bar, a nightclub or anywhere else for that matter. But you must admit that you will be lucky to find a circle where you can discuss the subject in harmony. I am no different to you in that I often discuss philosophy and spiritulism with my friends in social conditions, but there is always someone who wants to either sidetrack the subject or force his opinions upon you. If you don't come up against a situation like this, I guess you are very lucky. To me, one of the things that Freemasonry supplies with is a means of studying without distracting interference.

You'll find that most Freemasons do go to libraries (some even have their own vast collection of books) but you can't always discuss a book with a friend at a library. And, even if you take your friend along, he has to have the same literary likes as you if you want to discuss a certain subject. Within Freemasonry there is a broad agreement of the subject matter. If I read a book, I can almost guarantee that there will be someone else in my Lodge who has read it and studied it.
So why not join a book club? Well, if I did that I would also have to join a lot of other clubs. To me, Freemasonry is not just about philosophy and study. I would also have to join a social club, a spiritual group, a travel group, a dining club, a drama club, a public speaking course, a philisophical society and more - in fact many different groups that Freemasonry contains under one roof. I simply wouldn't have the time to join all of the individual organisations that Freemasonry already supplies me with.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree over two of the points that you make.
I stick to my guns regarding Western European church attendance and religion in comparison to the US. It pains me to say it, but outside of my family and friends in Freemasonry, I don't know of a single person who goes to church in my surrounding area. That's not to say that people here are atheists - most seem to be looking for their answers outside of church and religion.

The other point I disagree with is the freedom of knowledge. I believe that knowledge is never free. It's very nature means that it has to be earned. What has to be earned always comes at a price.
Even in a free society there is no such thing as free knowledge. I believe that you stated that you are a teacher? I even see a comparison with what you do and how Freemasonry works, if you are a university or college teacher. It's this:

1) Not everyone can go to University. The same goes for Freemasonry. Some people only have the capability to go in certain directions.

2) Not everyone wants to go to University. The same goes for Freemasonry. People choose different directions in life.

3) Not everyone studies when they go to University. The same goes for Freemasonry. People don't always choose specific courses of travel when they have chosen a general direction.

4) Going to University is no guarantee of knowledge. The same goes for Freemasonry. People who don't do work will not normally gain reward (knowledge).

To get anywhere in University you have to work hard. This isn't having knowledge handed to you.
Think about this: As a teacher, you aren't actually in a system that works much differently to Freemasonry!!! You earned your knowledge for yourself and I'll bet it was hard work to get you to where you are now - you weren't handed it; you had to put many long hours of thought and brainpower into it, maybe even some of your character. Now you disseminate that knowledge to others, but it isn't free. They have to pay with their time and above all, with their minds, just as you did. If knowledge were free, the education system wouldn't need you. They could just throw every student a tape cassette or a book and let them get on with it. Unfortunately, a lot of people won't do that, they won't learn anything that way. Listening or reading is work. Without that work there is no knowledge.
Your job is to try to help your students earn that knowledge. You help by making the work rewarding and the digestion of knowledge more acceptable. You can't force your students to learn and you can't even guarantee that if they do study hard they will be guaranteed a diploma, but you can offer the suggestion that by earning the knowledge that you are making available to them, they may be able to benefit from it.
Freemasonry is no different in that respect.

Freemasonry is not an elitest group. It's certainly not a sinister group. If you want to join it and you have the capabilities, you can join. It's just like any other educational faculty (although it doesn't ask for academic prowess). That's not to say that Freemasonry is solely an educational society - for me personally, it is so much more. But the comparison is there.

There is no weakness in wanting to learn. To me, it wouldn't matter if we were talking about any other organisation. If a man is a member of any society and he is there because he desires knowledge, he is showing a strength. Sure, there is always the danger that he may receive fraudulent information and this could make him weak. But it is up to the individual to recognise what is Truth and what is not.
The Order of which I am a member does not force knowledge, Truth, lies or anything else upon me. It doesn't even suggest. It tells me that I am responsible for finding my own answers - therefore any mistakes that I make are my own. But the knowledge that I find isn't free. Because it isn't yet mine, I have to earn it. If I ever do find it, it will be mine alone and it will probably be useless to anyone else because it is specifically catered to me. Not only does this make an offer of free knowlege defunct, but it could also make it dangerous to make it available to everyone. One man's meat could be another man's poison. The knowledge that I find in Freemasonry is individual to me, it's not a gift to the masses but something far more personal. Can I share it? There is no rule stopping me from doing so.
But will it be understood and therefore worth sharing? That's a different story - especially when I am still studying it and can hardly claim to know the full picture for myself.

This is not a form of elitism nor is it a judgement. It is a recognition of the basic human condition. Knowledge and understanding go hand in hand. Knowledge without understanding is utterly worthless. And that understanding always comes at a price because we are human. If we could receive and digest knowledge at will with absolutely no cost to ourselves, we would be gods.

i've got a question for everyone.

now before i ask please note that i do not type in perfect english, i just type down my random thoughts.

let me start off by stating that my grandfather and my two uncles are all shriners, so yes they are masons, because in order to become a shriner you have to become a member of the masonic temple. my grandmother, my mother, and my aunt were all member of eastern star, which if i remember correctly is a kind of sisterhood to the masons.

i am not a member of the masonic temple, i have considered it many times. it is sort of a family tradition, but honestly between my medical job and my wife i haven't had much time for many other things.

anyhow enough about me.

why are people so against the masons?

what have they done, every bit of proof you have isn't very factual. its all an idea. they don't talk about it because its a secret society, you have to have been through membership to find out what its about, ok so what does it take to be a mason. hmmm well one you have to be a guy, two you have to be of christian belief *i'm pretty sure about that but i could be wrong*, three you have to apply. i know that i could go and join any time i wanted to.

this isn't much more than a group of people who have taken some vows, they live to be better people and help each other out in life. i mean look at the shriners, you do realize that they only have a huge burn hospital in st. louis, mo for children don't you? they didn't have to do that they chose to out of the goodness of their hearts.

lets just say they are up to something, and you figure out what it is. what are you going to do about it. NOTHING!!! first off it would take something short of a miracle for you expose what it is they are up to, second if you were to become a problem, you would probably be shut up very quickly.

but then again maybe i am the asshole, maybe i am the one who is wrong.

i mean please i think its great that everyone here has an open mind and is willing to think outside of the box. but try looking at it in a different perspective. and i'm not implying the masons in this perspective, i'm just talking in general.

if someone came up to you and offered you a life where you and your family never had to worry about anything cause you would have an "extended" family who would help you no matter what. why wouldn't you take it.

if its not affecting your life why does it matter what they are doing?

these are just my thoughts and thats all that is important to me

Originally posted by icp
why are people so against the masons?

I respect your opinion but would ask that you give me the opportunity to just correct a couple of things in your post.

you have to be of christian belief *i'm pretty sure about that but i could be wrong*, three you have to apply. i know that i could go and join any time i wanted to.

You don't have to be a Christian. You can be of any religion or not even follow a certain one. All Freemasonry requires is a belief in a supreme being.The only other entrance requirement is that you are of good moral character.

Lets just say they are up to something, and you figure out what it is. what are you going to do about it. NOTHING!!! first off it would take something short of a miracle for you expose what it is they are up to, second if you were to become a problem, you would probably be shut up very quickly.

I don't advocate this viewpoint. If Freemasonry were up to no good, I would be the first to call for it's end. People should not turn a blind eye to wrong doing.
But that's by the by - there has never been one single shred of evidence that Freemasonry is working against society or involved in a conspiracy.THis is a society that has existed for hundreds of years and involved tens of millions of men, yet where is there a single piece of proof that the Order has been up to no good?

if someone came up to you and offered you a life where you and your family never had to worry about anything cause you would have an "extended" family who would help you no matter what. why wouldn't you take it.

Freemasonry doesn't offer that. Freemasons worry just like anybody else!!! There is no offer of immunity from injustice and no offer to help "no matter what". All Freemasons are subject to the same laws that everyone else is.

Originally posted by freudling
My comments are focussed more so on true "Secret Socities." However, I wonder how much even a society like the Masons can give to a person. I have found that after living in Europe (Central and Eastern), the people have really banded together, creating a "big club" of like-minded people. They balk at their Governments and are far removed from Patriotism; they resembe Nationalists. Personally, from my experience in both North America and Europe, the most defining statement in terms of the differences between the two people are that Europeans are much closer to being Nationalists than North Americans are. Thus, I feel that NA's are more politically malleable, following their Government - more ignorantly - with a much higher investment in the State, and I mean $investment$ (tax)

Of course, Europeans invest in their country in other ways, but they have a fuxx you attitude to their Government since they believe absolutely nothing they say. In fact, the front cover of a popular publication out here recently ran an issue showing young xxxxx fingering their countries flag. Well, they have been around much longer than us. My point is that perhaps our Governments have got us fighting each other so much that people resort to having to join a club to associate with people that feel the same as them - a brotherhood like the Masons; societies that fill the void within our young cultures (Canada and the US) Over here, I just have to walk on the Street and everybody seems to have an interest in staying out of your business and trying to survive in a place where corruption runs perhaps deeper than NA.

One situation that makes me laugh now is when some American middle-aged man saw a kid budge in front of a restaraunt line we were all standing in. He confronted the kid and said to the people in the line up that he intended to write a letter to the kids Football coach, since the kid had on his Football jacket, telling of the incident. You do that out here and you will be laughed at: nobody cares.

I used to be a Patriotic and after living out here, I am no longer. I have an attitude similiar to theirs, and believe the rich just get richer, so why pay them? although I aknowledge the worth of reasonable taxes. When I told someone out here that my theory as to why people don't have as good teeth as back home is because our Government puts flouride in the water, and the Governments out here primarily don't. Then the girl looked at me and said, "How do you know it is not poisoning you?" At first I laughed, then I researched it and it turns out that flouride is a constituent of Rat Poision. Then I thought some more and said, "It is probably the fact that they are so dang poor that they have bad teeth because they can't afford the dentist, since minimum wage where I live is $200 USD per month net."

My point: perhaps the day will come when we don't need underground societies and we can just be a brotherhood within our first tier of society.

[edit on 29-1-2005 by freudling]

Its all about power.

Originally posted by GnuLoCo
Its all about power.

Please, if you would be so kind, elaborate on this priceless one-line gem of intellectualism.

What power? The societies spoken of here don't have any more power than the YMCA or your local 4-H club, as much as some folks would like to believe they do.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by icp
why are people so against the masons?

I respect your opinion but would ask that you give me the opportunity to just correct a couple of things in your post.

you have to be of christian belief *i'm pretty sure about that but i could be wrong*, three you have to apply. i know that i could go and join any time i wanted to.

You don't have to be a Christian. You can be of any religion or not even follow a certain one. All Freemasonry requires is a belief in a supreme being.The only other entrance requirement is that you are of good moral character.

Lets just say they are up to something, and you figure out what it is. what are you going to do about it. NOTHING!!! first off it would take something short of a miracle for you expose what it is they are up to, second if you were to become a problem, you would probably be shut up very quickly.

I don't advocate this viewpoint. If Freemasonry were up to no good, I would be the first to call for it's end. People should not turn a blind eye to wrong doing.
But that's by the by - there has never been one single shred of evidence that Freemasonry is working against society or involved in a conspiracy.THis is a society that has existed for hundreds of years and involved tens of millions of men, yet where is there a single piece of proof that the Order has been up to no good?

if someone came up to you and offered you a life where you and your family never had to worry about anything cause you would have an "extended" family who would help you no matter what. why wouldn't you take it.

Freemasonry doesn't offer that. Freemasons worry just like anybody else!!! There is no offer of immunity from injustice and no offer to help "no matter what". All Freemasons are subject to the same laws that everyone else is.

no not all my info is correct, this was just my perception. but still the question i ask is why do people have a problem with the mason's.

you said it yourself, where is there a single shred of evidence that they are up to no good.

oh and thanks for not ripping me a new ass. i'm not much into conspiracy's and stuff like that. i came here cause i live in denver and was reading the dia post.

to be honest with you i'm just debating for fun, as most people probably are here.

i don't really give a # one way or another. everyone has the right to be entitled to their own opinions, and if i didn't want to hear them i wouldn't have asked or came to this site.

so please i really would like to know why people have issues with the masons

Originally posted by icp
so please i really would like to know why people have issues with the masons

You and me both, buddy.

I think it boils down to the old saying, "People fear what they do not understand." If the doors are closed, the people inside must be up to no good.

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by GnuLoCo
Its all about power.

Please, if you would be so kind, elaborate on this priceless one-line gem of intellectualism.

What power? The societies spoken of here don't have any more power than the YMCA or your local 4-H club, as much as some folks would like to believe they do.

People think, for some weird reason, that just because individual masons are in positions of power, that the whole fraternity shares it. That's a bunch of crap, a man is a hunband, neighbor and employee FIRST, a mason second. And the fraternity couldn't give a crap if you are a politician or a plumber, as long as you are a good person.

Originally posted by freudling
MY OPINION: Secret societies are for the weak. What has to be secret or private about knowledge, if in fact that is the aim of the socieities.

This is not, in fact, the aim of ALL secret societies.

I wonder what the motivation is for people who feel compelled to join an organization that is "secret"; thus, they really don't know that much about it before they join. Obviously, one reason that almost deductively derives from the latter is that they are curious, so they join. But is that it?

Some secret societies are actually secret. No one seeks them out because no one knows they exist. Instead candidates are thoroughly checked out by the organization and invited in only after the organization is sure that the candidate would join and would fit in very well. Some organizations are not intended to help members find enlightenment, but are dedicated to acheiving an agenda. Weak people are never considered for the job for obvious reasons.

Just my opinion, trying to broaden the scope a little.



[edit on 2/4/05 by wellwhatnow]

This is not, in fact, the aim of ALL secret societies.

So, what are some other aims of secret societies, besides the rich plotting and networking?

Some secret societies are actually secret. No one seeks them out because no one knows they exist. Instead candidates are thoroughly checked out by the organization and invited in only after the organization is sure that the candidate would join and would fit in very well. Some organizations are not intended to help members find enlightenment, but are dedicated to acheiving an agenda. Weak people are never considered for the job for obvious reasons.

Well, if they are so secret that nobody knows about them, how do you know about "some" of these secret societies?

Originally posted by freudling
Well, if they are so secret that nobody knows about them, how do you know about "some" of these secret societies?

I was speaking of organizations that were at one time genuinely secretive but have at some point become known. If these types of organizations existed before, it is possible that more of them exist now.

Originally posted by freudling
So, what are some other aims of secret societies, besides the rich plotting and networking?

That would depend on the organization, wouldn't it?

One such organization was devoted to releasing laboratory test animals. They broke into labs and released and/or euthanized all the animals they found. If they had been fully public and recruited members openly, they would have been arrested. The group's silence was eventually broken by one of their own members who believed that fighting the system through public awareness campaigns would be more effective than direct strikes against testing labs. Once the group became public it joined with the ALF, Animal Liberation Front.

There once was a group that was a spin off of the Weathermen. These folks devoted their lives to living "under the radar" and overthrowing the US government. They lived completely outside of the system. Their main intent was to disappear and help others to do the same so that they could then fight the US government more effectively. In the early eighties the group divided - some went to prison, some went to join the Patriots, most were absorbed by the Rainbow Family of Living Light.

There have been other groups through out the world that have become public after years, sometimes decades of silence and secrecy. If I can think of these two right off the top of my head, I think it is safe to assume that somewhere there are probably others that are still in operation.
It's a great big world out there.

Edit: to add - I just don't get why all the focus seems to be on the Masons. There are hundreds of other groups.

[edit on 2/5/05 by wellwhatnow]

Probably originally they were created to pass on needed knowledge,

that would have been not 'preloaded' into our brains so to speak, because of problems to do with large scale disasters, memory loss, devastation and so forth.

More like if you had a nursey of plants and kept them all under the right exact conditions, that's what secret societies are meant to be for. The secret part was only because it messes things up if you do stuff in the wrong order (not Order) - for example, say in equivalent terms if you were to grow a branch off a trunk part that didn't even exist yet, because that trunk part hadn't grown in, then obviously that would cause a lot of distortions and problems and mutations at the very least, all not to do with how you ought to grow. Also because it is a bit like making a silicon wafer circuit - if you are not sheilded in some way then you cannot function in a reality like this one. It would be like expecting an unetched Si wafer to somehow behave like a circuit.
So sometimes secrecy was because it was the only way for the members to not know their own futures, and therefore mess their heads up or worse.

why all the struggle with who is better than who,who holds the most knowledge..
no matter what society your in,or where you are in the business or spiritual world,or religious belief/culture,philosophy dogma.......
no matter what,the secret..wooohooo..its all the same for all...everyone just looks at it from another angle..if it workd for you,the group then it works for you...no one better than the other..each at our own level on the spiral..
and as for is anyone good or bad....as we all know the whole is not,thou there are allways rotten apples in the barrel...
those who are aloof or have bad intentions etc.or black magic and those who extend themselfs etc.are of white magic
cant live with out it,thats the way it is..posotive/negative.night.day.yada yada.
as for secrets there are none,stop limiting your beliefs
ps.i see all the talk of enlightenment....do you all think being enlightened is a place of power....
do you really know what it is like to be enlightened..and i am not talking about having lots of money etc...
i question this deeply..
i dont see many around me that are...
everyone is trying to control..
it is not about control
how can you let go,should be the ultimate question...
figure that out the path lays out before you,care to tread
be here now and now and now and now and now.....................

another addition of greenman ramble
i seen a line where it mentioned knowledge of a different kind,could be dangerous in the hands of the masses,yes it can!!!!!!!!!!!1
once upon a time,i asked a man who did not seem no where near enlightend(thou i know today he truly was),,what can you tell me of this form,this time and space question i seek an answer to..my intentions were good..he spoke to me in a ridule and concluded,how do you know you will not do harm to yourself or others if you do understand...you say your intentions are good,the mind is fragile,when the time is ready if ever,you will then understand,what it is that you knew all along..
i personelly allways felt the same way in a way..why societies why a religion..etc..i allways felt that they were for the weak,those that needed something to cling too..not necessarily a bad thing,not necessarily a weakness..and i felt all this is a way to divert us away from what really is,
..someone needs to be king of the hill..because ...just because..i said to much i feel
just a bunch of sloppy ass writting..
that is sending a minisule wave out there
stalk your dreams
1010 1 2 3 6 7 9 13 23 33 ........................................................
peace with in

Originally posted by freudling
MY OPINION: Secret societies are for the weak.

Well that might be true anyone who stands alone is weak. For instance one buzzard by himself can do little but twenty buzzards can take a carcass from two adult cheetas. One solo man can do little on any level. Nothing of great importance will be achieved without a team effort. One person can park a small vessel where as it takes probably twenty are more to park a large one.

He's probably right about how they are today,

they are not good today, they haven't been since they became anything other than what they started out as being for.

I'd go as far as to state that most if not all such socities today are not even allowing in the people that created them or were part of them in previous lives and incarnations - ie, those who actually had to do with them while they were still working properly, are not recognised at all today, or - if they are, it is only by those that worked towards steering the societies away from their true purposes.

I'm not condeming them all, but it is kinda obvious that if they hadn't been mostly infiltrated by evil then the world would be quite different to what it currently is, insofar as the human world and it's interactions goes.

One person can easily make a difference - a real 'secret society' would make sure that you knew that! You have to be able to work as a team, but the most successful teams are made up of persons who on their own can do what they need to. Must be individually able to exist right without the team, otherwise you will not even be able to make decisions on your own - you would need to be told what to do and when.

The best ones are like the internet or a hologram, even if you killed everyone in it except one, that one would have as much as all the others had. And that is what a real sec.soc. would 'train' you to remember about yourself.

I am only one
i feel as if i am an island
thou i know i am not.
as one ,by self,i brought about a great thing before a whole town..
in all the towns history 200 yrs. the entire town pulled together..
thou as a whole,the greatness faded and it became evil..
left alone i felt strong with in the group,weak.

alone i do great things for the public around me,for anyone that wants to see.i have transformed,inspired enlightened so many..with no help from a group..with out teachings..
just being an example...
the power of one,the power of silence,
to stand alone is far from being weak...very far indeed.
it has taken me great strength to feel that i am an island and to exist amonst the storms.
strength does not come from muscle or knowledge it come from the will.

I agree. Look at Hitler. It is the people who join that crap that are the foot soldiers for "the man's" agenda. Same stuff: you are their to pay their expenses and be their foot soldiers.

I will say this again: somebody like me goes to the library to find answers to my questions without having some guy looking at me with a belt and metals. I think the trick is to actively ask the questions to begin with.

Really, I want the secrets without the oaths, thank you very much.

And anything new isn't new at all.

So how could Freemasonry be the only source of anything? I can do without a Worshipful Grand Master, thank you very much.