Six Question About the Soul - Understanding the Eternal Fire

The following is from the Apocryphon of John:

I (John) asked the Savior, “Lord, will every soul be saved and enter the pure light?”

He replied, “You are asking an important question, one it will be impossible to answer for anyone who is not a member of the unmoved race. They are the people upon whom the Spirit of Life will descend and the power will enable them to be saved and to become perfect and worthy of greatness. They expunge evil from themselves and they will care nothing for wickedness, wanting only that which is not corrupt. They will achieve freedom from rage, envy, jealousy, desire, or craving.”

“The physical body will negatively effect them. They wear it as they look forward to the time when they will meet up with those who will remove it. Those people deserve indestructible eternal life. They endure everything, bearing up under everything that happens so that they can deserve the good and inherit life eternal.”

Then I asked him, “Lord, what about the souls who didn’t do these things even though the Spirit of Life’s power descended on them?“

He answered, “If the Spirit descends to people they will be transformed and saved. The power descends on everyone and, without it, no one can even stand up. After they are born, if the Spirit of Life increases in them, power comes to them and their souls are strengthened. Nothing then can leave them astray into wickedness. But if the artificial spirit comes into people, it leads them astray.”

Then I said, “Lord, when souls come out of the flesh where do they go?”

He replied, smiling, “If the soul is strong it has more of power than it has of the artificial spirit and so it flees from wickedness. With the assistance of the Incorruptible One that soul is saved and it attains eternal rest.”

I then asked him, “Lord, what of the souls of the people who do not know whose people they are? Where do they go?”

He responded, “In those people the artificial spirit has grown strong and they have gone astray. Their souls are burdened, drawn to wickedness, and cast into forgetfulness.”

“When they come forth from the body, such a soul is given over to the powers created by the rulers, bound in chains, and cast into prison again. Around and around it goes until it manages to become free from forgetfulness through knowledge. And so, eventually, it becomes perfect and is saved.”

Then I asked, “Lord, how does the soul shrink down so as to be able to enter its mother or a man?

He was happy that I asked this and said, “You are truly blessed because you have understood. The soul should be guided by another within whom is the Spirit of Life. It will be saved by that means and accordingly will not have to enter a body again.

And I said, “Lord, what happens to the souls of people who achieved true knowledge, but who turned away from it?”

He said to me, “Demons of poverty will take them to a place where there is no possibility of repentance. There they will stay until the time when those who blasphemed against the spirit will be tortured and subjected to punishment age-during.”

These teachings may seem contradictory to the idea of "eternal fire" described in the Orthodox gospels, but literal translations of the mentioning of "eternal fire" indicate it is actually an "age-during fire" example 1, example 2. Eternal is only literally used in the bible to describe the power and existence of God: Examples. Instead, age-during is used to describe a very long time or an aeon - the duration of purification of souls through fire. Once this process is complete, they are recycled and given another chance at life. This idea of an age-during fire is similar to the Hindu concept of Samsara, which explains a cyclical "eternal" process that recycles souls until they are, as Jesus says above, liberated:

“When they come forth from the body, such a soul is given over to the powers created by the rulers, bound in chains, and cast into prison again. Around and around it goes until it manages to become free from forgetfulness through knowledge. And so, eventually, it becomes perfect and is saved.”

Similarly, in Hindu tradition Moksha is the rising above and escape from Samsara and results in the liberation of the soul from the limitations of the material world. This Truth will set you free. Do not let such a promise of another chance render you idle, for as was said by the Essenes:

"Do not wait for death
To reveal the great mystery;
If you know not your Heavenly Father
While your feet tread the dusty soil,
There shall be naught but shadows for thee
In the life that is to come.
Here and now
Is the mystery revealed.
Here and now
Is the curtain lifted."

a reply to: cooperton

Just reading the excerpt, this text (even in translation) does not resonate with the same personality written in to the Gospel of John, the Epistles of John, or the Book of Revelation.

Its a hypothetical Q&A fabricated by a mystic pretending to be John, and it is put together very poorly.

originally posted by: cooperton
Six Question About the Soul

Before asking 'about' the Soul, perhaps you'd like to know what a 'Soul' is?

We are all unique Conscious Perspectives of the One unchanging Universal Reality/God!
Not anything that the Soul perceives (and that is everything) can affect it in any way, any more than the movie can affect the screen upon which it is being played.

Every point in the Universe is a unique Soul!

The 'size' of a 'Soul' is;

"The Planck length is about 10^-20 of the diameter of a proton, and thus is an extremely small length. It is much smaller than the smallest length values ever measured or probed, which are about 10-5 of a proton diameter."
en.wikipedia.org...

1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = one thousand trillion trillionths the diameter of a proton!!

A Planck volume is a Planck length cubed. This equals to about 4 × 10 − 105 cubic meters...

Not anything of this passing make-believe can ever affect a Soul.

a reply to: cooperton

Great OP.

Thanks for reminding me that I have neglected my readings and contemplations of many of the Gnostic teachings over the past few years.

When I first read the Apocryphon of John years ago I found it interesting and enlightening but also more oblique than many other Gnostic Gospels.

All that means is that I need to read it again and hope that I have become less rigid in my thinking so that I may receive a deeper understanding. It's not the fault of the book that I found it somewhat difficult to penetrate. I think I may have been trying too hard to understand & analyze it rather than just letting it speak for itself as I was early in my gnostic studies at that time and was trying devour all I could on the subject as quickly as I could.

I also definitely need to revisit my Catholic roots as I think I "threw out" a lot of what is good about the church and it's teachings along with things that weren't when I stopped being dogmatically observant.

S & F - and thanks!

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I agree, it doesn't sound like the John from the bible or his writing style, it's most likely pseudographical as are a few books in the bible such as Revelation (which doesn't read anything like Johns gospel or epistles itself). That shouldn't detract from what it's saying though IMO, it's still got knowledge and wisdom to be found within it.

a reply to: LumenImagoDei

The Revelation shouldn't read like the Gospels or epistles. It's all prophecy, not history. Read parts of Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, among others, to find aspects which read like the Revelation.

None of the Apocrypha or Gnostic writings read anything like the books in the Bible because they're self-centered. It's very easy to see why they're not included in Canon when you read them.

That doesn't mean the writings aren't legitimate - only that they're not authored by the Holy Spirit.

Some say, "but men..."

When you watch a movie, there are producers, there are directors, there are writers, there are editors, historians, scientists, experts, etc...

The one holding the pen has a small, but necessary, job in comparison to the others when it comes to the completion of the product.

You can tell who is the author by the message, just like you can tell a J.J. Abrams film, regardless of who the writers are.

a reply to: LumenImagoDei

I would say it detracts from the message's credibility, since the writer is likely impersonating the Apostle John to thrust his/her ideas.

Its one thing to hold a belief. Its another thing to use a poorly forged document to support your belief.

It seems more likely to me that the writer was trying to smear John's reputation in the eyes of devout Christians.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: cooperton

Just reading the excerpt, this text (even in translation) does not resonate with the same personality written in to the Gospel of John, the Epistles of John, or the Book of Revelation.

The writing style is a bit unorthodox. Given the title "Secret book of John", these were surely beliefs that could not be shared openly... I would suggest all Christians delve into the gnostic texts though - what if they are the authentic words of Jesus? The Spirit of discernment will guide you.

originally posted by: Riffrafter
a reply to: cooperton

Great OP.

Thanks for reminding me that I have neglected my readings and contemplations of many of the Gnostic teachings over the past few years.

When I first read the Apocryphon of John years ago I found it interesting and enlightening but also more oblique than many other Gnostic Gospels.

I'm glad it sparked your interest. Although I know what you're talking about, some of the parts of the apocryphon of John are flat-out indecipherable. Yet some of the verses are simple yet thought-provoking; such as Satan's purpose for compelling Adam and Eve into childbirth so he could rule over the population (i.e. prince of this world). Many other verses could warrant a thread of their own

a reply to: cooperton

If the gnostic books were authentic biblical books, they would be metered in heptameter. I would have to see the original text of the book in question to know for sure, but I'm willing to bet there is no heptameter present, just by looking at the lack rhetorical repetion in the translation.

If anyone cares to go back to the two trees... there is a tree of knowledge and a tree of life. Both are infinite knowledge can go on and on and on as entropy... a rectangular piece of cloth can be oh so many things but is still just a rectangular piece of cloth. Knowledge is not the label but how it is put to use that in turn becomes the many labels ideas and concepts off into infinity... but that is the infinity of matter or form.

The tree of life? That which animates matter energy itself... it also is infinite and yet no knowledge decribes is pure essence of being, it just is. No tongue can speak it, no eye can behold it, no tape can measure it... as it is infinite the same as knowledge.

What occurs is our limited understanding of knowledge or matter is also applied to the unlimited energy or spirit.

Why? Because both being bound together are those chains... the self grasping at knowledge is led into infinite bondage of matter; the self not grasping at matter is said to grow in spirit.

Of course not being biased in matter or the energy, sees that matter and energy are in union at all times... the form may change but the energy is always flowing through and surrounding it. When matter supports matter it gains weight or gravity, one speck of dust nothing countless? a planet innumerable the universe... when energy supports energy it gains in force, a shock on a friends ear a loved ones lip, or a bolt of lightning.

How does matter combine? Through energy, how does energy combine? Through the combination or matter both matter and energy grow and flow like a living organism and well what happens when like a living organism is a living organism?

Life is said to be a river, but it can also become firm like the rock, unmovible eventually liquifies from weight heat and pressure into a flowing river of rock or iron and the force or energy driving against it generates the force to turn it and then the energy and rock transforms into polarities magnatism... weak forces strong forces etc.

Before I drift out into that endless sea of entropic infinity... I must take pause and stop, as it can keep going on and on and on and it will, whether I remain cause for it too or not. Cause depending on atachment? My bladder being attached and urine trying to detach? Other things to be off and onto, than chewing the fat.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: cooperton

If the gnostic books were authentic biblical books, they would be metered in heptameter. I would have to see the original text of the book in question to know for sure, but I'm willing to bet there is no heptameter present, just by looking at the lack rhetorical repetion in the translation.

You are disregarding writings that potentially contain the authentic words of Jesus without even checking the content first?

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness

What occurs is our limited understanding of knowledge or matter is also applied to the unlimited energy or spirit.

Why? Because both being bound together are those chains... the self grasping at knowledge is led into infinite bondage of matter; the self not grasping at matter is said to grow in spirit.

If you have the patience to read Pistis Sophia (which means Faithful Knowledge) I think you would benefit greatly. Jesus talks about exactly what you are describing, how the soul [unlimited] engulfed itself in the darkness of the material [limited] world... and how a complete faith in the Light is a means of escaping our self-manifested labyrinth. In these writings, the adversary is simply referred to as "self-willed".

a reply to: cooperton

I've checked the content. I have a large hardcopy collection of translated apocryphal scrolls. They are gnostic propaganda littered with Biblical buzz words.

If you can provide a link to the Greek text of the manuscript in question, I can check it for a heptameter. That is my key litmus test. Until then, I have no reason to believe that these are the words of Jesus or John....just a poorly written forgery.

a reply to: cooperton

What good is faith when knowing such a thing? Christ etc. wanted equals not followers; they gained them though because they pointed, grabbed a hand took them to the river and said I can point at it show it to you until my finger falls off but until you see the moon reflecting in it? Equal we cannot be... walking it? or riding the one pointing like an ass while being an ass when all they ask for is equals... that's all anyone truely wants, unless stagnant then they can appreciate constructive criticism... when the criticism is nothing but ad hominem? You are doing something right; but it is a projection of their own weakness on you; so then it's ok fine ride me like an ass until it becomes clear out of empathy... knowing it isn't easy, they will soon find out if they take up the path instead of the banner? That pointing isn't either because you get to be the ass while they are the burden, but when they set the burden down as you have? Is when they realize they were the ass the entire time, when mirror turns into clear seeing: a window to reality inside and out... not one reflecting outside as inside, or inside as outside. It is as it appears; beyond such deciet.

Many point; what they point to? Well, easy to see where their mind goes when following that finger having walked the path already. No mystery left then, no question arises, no doubts... in such a state what good is belief and faith? There only exists truth then... but it is a truth beyond relative: The absolute itself... but if they don't know what it looks like?

Then faith and belief can be the ass until they decide to stop being one... and become equal in the so called eyes of god... they already are; but when they make others or all life not them unequal in bias or judgement? What can one do? Grow in patience and empathy of course like a parent watching over a child, not trying to force the child to be them or them be the child... just endure as one already has WITH them, because task is already done... sherpa has climbed the hills way more than sherpa would ever need too, but sherpa wouldn't exist without wanting to help those persisting to make it over terrain that the sherpa is not different than... so sherpa becomes the spirit of the mountain trying to make itself easier on those trying to cross it. How many stop and say I will let the sherpa rest the day I see it?

Thats why I don't dogma people; it draws a line to those fond of them... of course not fond of conflict that line draws? (sings)I-I-I-Iro-o-o-ny then fight due to the line made, not taking responsibility for being one that drew it! Yarr! Yes it is funny and comical to a degree... but countless lives have been and will be lost over and over and over until ding ding! lines are forgotten and everyone just eats.

*** DELETED BY AUTHOR ***

a reply to: yosako

That reminds me; dishes won't wash themselves...

Happy Tuesday ATS

a reply to: cooperton

And I said, “Lord, what happens to the souls of people who achieved true knowledge, but who turned away from it?” He said to me, “Demons of poverty will take them to a place where there is no possibility of repentance. There they will stay until the time when those who blasphemed against the spirit will be tortured and subjected to punishment age-during.”

Using fear to manipulate the masses should be seen as a red flag. In similar vein, both Jesus and Paul/Saul stated the end times would occur their lifetimes, again to manipulate the masses. If they were wrong about the end times, will their other truths be any truer? Is the abrahamic heaven just another world of sophia that doesn't end in everlasting joy? People should meditate/pray to their own soul and ask for guidance because the answers isn't in books.

Matthew 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: cooperton
“Lord, what happens to the souls of people who achieved true knowledge, but who turned away from it?” He said to me, “Demons of poverty will take them to a place where there is no possibility of repentance. There they will stay until the time when those who blasphemed against the spirit will be tortured and subjected to punishment age-during.”

Using fear to manipulate the masses should be seen as a red flag.

People who have come to know the full truth and walk away... from my own experience there is torment that accompanies anyone who tries to walk away from the greater Truth they have discovered. Your conscience disallows you to live the old naive life you lived, and you suffer until you fully acclimate to the greater reality. Growing pains

In similar vein, both Jesus and Paul/Saul stated the end times would occur their lifetimes, again to manipulate the masses. If they were wrong about the end times, will their other truths be any truer?

Jesus had no motive to manipulate the masses.

Jesus said the Son of Man would come upon anyone who acclimated to the Word of God (Matthew 10:23). The time is coming (for those who are searching) and has already come (for those who have found) for the Kingdom to be revealed(Thomas 113, Thomas 18,John 5:25, John 4:23). Don't let time fool you, we are the temples - we are the places where time is kept.

a reply to: cooperton

Not like he wasn't tempted to do so or anything else at every turn like anyone else on the rugged road... especially if you take the battle of money changers as a metaphor for that internal struggle. Other people making tons of money off of it; profiting in some way off of that following... the excuse is why not people sell everything else and I "want" and thats where one falls it isn't a need. Even if it is a need; it's always likely others have less somewhere so being grateful with what one has twists the knot... and says hang me if you must but truth is truth and without it no one is set free... so where does the noose actually get placed?