There's no mental illness

originally posted by: Redback
SO all these year's that i have been battling depression, PTSD and suicidal thought's is just in my head (pun intended).

It is sad when people who do not suffer depression or mental illeness believe that "we depressed people" are full of s###.

I would love to be "normal" and love life, yes i did love life at one time but that love was ripped out of my hand's and i now struggle.

Have you ever woke up in the morning and literally felt your life crumple around your ankles and then spend the next few hours contemplating suicide?!?!?!? Believe me, it is not fun and i sooooo wish i never had them thoughts because it is soooo bloody scary but i do and i have to live with that.

Yes anti-deprssants cause suicidal thoughts and that is unacceptable but without anti-depressants there would be a lot more dead people, trust me..!

Supermilkman, if you walked a week in my life i can assure you, you would be looking at this thread very differently.

"Psychology is pseudoscience", i hope them words never come back to bite you

To live is to suffer.

originally posted by: tikbalang
a reply to: supermilkman

We are pack animals, im trying to be very tolerant cause you are from the American culture.

I agree. Trust nobody, love few, paddle your own canoe.

Wow, ok, where to start here..

I kind of get where you're coming from and i think you're partly accurate in some of what you're saying, but for the wrong reasons.

Firstly, i would be wary of basing your conclusions on the DSM and a single book by a former psychiatrist with an axe to grind. Psychology and psychiatry are incredibly complicated subjects that take people a lifetime to learn about and understand and even then they are barely scratching the surface of what there is to know so, my advice to you would be; maybe withhold judgement at this stage, if you're really serious about learning about it and discussing it.

Now, a bit of personal background:

I have worked in and studied mental health for around 15 years now. I am qualified in counselling, social care, mental health and have been providing mental health rehabilitation for around 13 years. I have worked in the community, i have worked in an acute inpatient setting, i have worked with clients who run the entire spectrum; fom forensic (criminal) patients through to those you describe as having 'petty issues' (believe me when i say, those suffering with these issues do not experience them as petty issues at all). I don't pretend to know even half of everything there is to know on the subjects of psychology, psychiatry and mental illness, but i feel i have at least earned the right to speak on the subject.

Ok, so you start off by saying there is no such thing as mental illness, and then go on to say that it's basically been invented by psychiatry, big pharma etc and by society and that everyone would be a-ok if all of the above would just mind their own business.

Now, i have seen and witnessed the true horror and suffering of hundreds of mentally ill people over the years and i can tell you categorically that mental illness is a VERY real problem indeed. Psychology and psychiatry were both a reaction TO mental illness; it already existed and it was only when people really started to care about those individual's, their experiences and their suffering, that some people started to try and understand it. Psychiatry and psychology were born from a desire to understand the mind (both the functioning and malfunctioning) and a desire to help. For better or worse, that has led to the current state of affairs.

Despite how it may appear at face value, society has actually taken (and continues to take) a stance on mental health that marginalises and trivialises the experiences of those with mental health problems, a stance which has compounded the suffering of those with mental health problems and continues to make it very difficult for people to access the help that they need.
The argument that you're positing here is simply the age old "it's all in your head and if you could only pull yourself together you'd be fine". This is part of the same attitude that has led to chronic underfunding of mental health services here in the UK, woefully under trained and under staffed services and a constant battle for patients to be taken seriously and listened to.

If you want to know whether mental illness is real or not, go and seek out the people SUFFERING the problems and ask them about their experiences.
How many people have sat down and actually ASKED even one person with mental health problems what their experiences are? How about two people? Ten people? A hundred? A sufficient number to have a reasonable sample size if one wished to study such a phenomenon? How many of you stopped to talk to the weird looking guy muttering under his breath or shouting at the sky and how many of you crossed the road and looked the other way, or worse, had a little laugh at his expense with your mates? Yet some feel they're qualified to make pronouncements such as "mental illness does not exist!"

Seriously, please think about that for a moment.

I would advise that you don't just read a book written by a guy who has many years of mental health experience, has perhaps become disillusioned by a very complex and political system and, in some ways, is really arguing semantics. The reason i include the 'years of experience' comment (which on the surface seems like a good thing right?) Is because his critique is based on the nuances and subtleties of a subject that he has studied for a very long time, it is the end result of many years of learning about, experiencing and thinking about a subject. This means that you cannot simply come in as a complete beginner and hope to comprehend what is being said and argued because you lack context, the context that 15 or 20 or 30 years of experience would provide, and that is ABSOLUTELY VITAL to fully understand the arguments being put forward. Otherwise, it is simply like trying to build a house with no foundation; the end result will be very unsound at best and a total disaster at worst.

That being said; i think that individual perception is absolutely key to recovery and effective treatment of mental health issues. I fully intend to write a thread on perception and wellbeing (not just in relation to mental illness but wellbeing in general) in the near future and i would love for you to jump into that thread and get involved.

I think the way in which an individual views and relates to their mental illness is VITAL to the final outcome, as it relates to their functioning. However, this is not the same thing as saying mental illness does not exist.

As a final note, please do not read any of what i have written as a dismissal of your point of view, nor assume that any of what i have said is a personal attack on your knowledge, experience or understanding. I have not meant to be condescending, dismissive, take a position of superiority or belittle you in any way. I commend you for taking the time to look into and to try to begin to understand the subject of mental illness. I WISH more people would, as more widespread understanding can only be beneficial to those who suffer with mental illness.

There is nowhere near enough words in one post to do this subject justice. We haven't touched on the difference between mental illnesses with an organic cause and those without, the role of trauma in, in particular (though not exclusively) schizophrenia, the ways in which different factors (genetics, culture, social norms and values, life experience, life chances etc.) interact and the difficulty in diagnosing and treating various mental illnesses as a result, the huge differences between individuals in the way they experience the world, the way they experience their illnesses, altered/alternate states of consciousness, the level of functioning and/or debilitation caused by the illness, which in turn blurs the line between illness and wellness... The list goes on and on.

I will however say that, what you go on to argue in later posts in this thread is more to do with the CAUSE of mental illness and not to do with whether it exists or not in the first place.

Anyway, I could write all day about this and i suspect I've already written so much that nobody will bother to read it all, so I'll leave it there.

I feel like I've barely said a thing at this point as well so, if there's something you'd like me to expand on then let me know.

Otherwise, keep an eye out for that thread on wellbeing and perception. It might be a while yet but it'll get here eventually and hopefully it might be of interest to you

I'm not entirely sure that there is no such thing as mental illness.

But I do agree that the systems in place and the knowledge are crippled and wrong.

The worst I've ever felt and the worst mistakes I've ever made were because I was put on medication that should never have been in me. I was bad before, but oh my was I actually crazy after.

My wife just last night said, "I found what's wrong with you! You have Low Latent Inhibition!"

Of course, before that it was bipolar. The medication for that and anxiety caused me to be mentally taking Polaroid pictures while my body somehow continues to live life and make horrible mistakes.

I somehow was able to acknowledge how gone I was. I threw away all medication and stopped going to see anyone. It took a FULL 6 months for me to remember an entire stretch of day, what I had for breakfast the previous day.

I've never imagined such a hell.

Now I'm able to manage my problems much more easily, because that plane of hell is nothing compared to what the medication put me through.

But do you know how scary it is for your wife to keep looking for why you're so different? So she tells me to look into Low Latent Inhibition.

But why do people need to label me, man? I'm just Tarzan. I know what you're thinking before you do. I'm impatient having to slow anything down for anyone. I just have healthy common sense and no submission stare. I'm right and you are probably wrong, regardless of your level of authority - and it's almost always proven to be the case. To me, it seems like you are constantly guessing, failing to realize someone is seeing directly into you.

That's how I'm perceived socially, anyway. Living around people who miraculously survive, though they are intelligent to others, while always having the wrong idea about what thinking actually is - it's angering. But I love people, too, and can never resist helping.

I'm thought of as crazy... I tend to think others are crazy. And I've been right when the whole village was wrong before.

But this is a mental condition, no matter how you slice it, to these people.

Could it be that a world of narcissists drive people who constantly care, think, act, and see injustice everywhere to absolute madness?

Give? Im guessing you are fairly young, if you take away the simple things you take granted if life, computer, games, porn, food, well i could the list very long, what would you do? All the stimuli you been provided, just gone. Does it make your life not worth living?

All of these things are already provided. What else do you want? We live better than wealthy people of the 15th centuries.

You want someone to give you a stimuli package? So you dont kill your neighbor? Nothing wrong with the picture?
You want someone to give you a career?

Moral compass is essential to prevent crime. I wasn't talking about a stimuli package or anything, just that the system needs workers. Everyone has a role. When people are off working they want to relax and enjoy recreation.

Do you think anyone could work at NASA? Better city planning? You mean build ghost cities like in China?

You have to have advanced mathematics degrees and/or worked for the government to have a chance at working with NASA. NASA requires high precision engineers and security clearances.

And of course you need good city planning. Bad city planning can make the entire place congested. Look at all of the countries that have over-crowding issues. Over-crowding stems from high birth rates and bad city planning.

China has a lot of vacant areas because they're working all the time. They're mostly producers at this point, not so much consumers. Maybe when there's a new global currency and a system that allows universal basic income more of their people can actually vacate the city?

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Not sure what to say but that we don't live in villages anymore. We turned the trees into machines. It's time to adapt with the modern era and for the world of tomorrow.

originally posted by: supermilkman
a reply to: TarzanBeta

Not sure what to say but that we don't live in villages anymore. We turned the trees into machines. It's time to adapt with the modern era and for the world of tomorrow.

I live in a legal village... I'm using the term properly.

Oh you've probably gone far in life. Jk.

originally posted by: supermilkman
a reply to: tikbalang

Dopamine malfunction?

Have you ever thought that it was drugs/medicine that is giving them this dopamine malfunction?

Doesn't diet, balanced nutrition, and exercise regulate your chemicals to healthy levels?

we have already discussed this before and many members have brought it up time and again....

Explain the symptoms when theres been no previous medications??

You are continually provided with proof hard proof contrary to your views on this thread, and indeed your other thread.....

You come back, spam post your own thread, and post again and get into the same circular debates that you had earlier in the thread, just repeating yourself over and over, refusing to acknowledge Truth...

And then you further bait trying to use Religion, and political Ideology to inflame.....

You sir are Trolling the boards

a reply to: Indrasweb

The mental health system covers a variety of mental health issues but there is still no mental illness.

I understand that psych wards are used as a step down from jails and state hospitals for those that are a threat to themselves and others. Your criminal patients would fit the gamut.

However not all of your patients are criminals. Many are normal and may have had a few incidents that led them into a psych unit.

Some are serious cases, some are petty cases. However I know for a fact that not all of the patients are "evil' criminals. Some are but mind you there are good and bad apples everywhere you go, even people outside of psych units.

Nonetheless there is no mental illness so the less harmful patients shouldn't be seen as bad or needing medicine. Some that are put into psych units are victims of trauma or in crisis (homeless, live in broken homes, drug overdose.) Then upon admission they are later diagnosed and given a debilitating condition.

The medicine actually disables people. It doesn't cure their "illness."

You can't work for a living if given medications. The medicine interferes with driving as well as operating equipment and machinery. How is one expected to live a practical life when they're given a cocktail of meds?

Eitherway, you and I can both admit that not all mental health patients are bad. Many are victims of circumstance.

a reply to: supermilkman

I repeat, not sure there is no mental illness. But everything else you said seems quite accurate to me.

That's why my star for you.

a reply to: Indrasweb

Absolutely spot on!

I'd like to add my take, from a little experience living with someone with certain "conditions."

Mental illness is certainly just as real as mental wellness. In fact it's also very contagious to those who happen to be in close relations with effected people.

The human mind although complex and capable of extremely complicated and detailed interactions, it's also incapable of processing the complicatedness of so many choices and relations that we go through in our lives in today's world. There are clearly defined limits to short term memory and our ability to comprehend and react to everything in our lives. As we go through life trying to organise these choices and relations into something simple and comprehensible, we have to discard most of what we have to choose from. In short, our world is too complicated for our simple minds. We're still wired for living in direct contact with our environment, focusing on food and shelter etc..

The complicated array of paths, choices and so on puts us in a position as a group where a very high percentage of our community is lost to confusion. Each one of us individually has to deal with the mess.. those who choose to simplify their lives and deal with the not so "right" choices and move on with them are more likely to safe guard themselves from becoming mentally ill.. But we've all experienced some form of it, it's in all of us.

The real issue here is that we tend to treat illness in most of its forms by dealing directly with the symptoms. Most cases of mental illness can only truly be remedied by behaviour management and changes in our perception of our environment.

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask

originally posted by: supermilkman
a reply to: tikbalang

Dopamine malfunction?

Have you ever thought that it was drugs/medicine that is giving them this dopamine malfunction?

Doesn't diet, balanced nutrition, and exercise regulate your chemicals to healthy levels?

we have already discussed this before and many members have brought it up time and again....

Explain the symptoms when theres been no previous medications??

You are continually provided with proof hard proof contrary to your views on this thread, and indeed your other thread.....

You come back, spam post your own thread, and post again and get into the same circular debates that you had earlier in the thread, just repeating yourself over and over, refusing to acknowledge Truth...

And then you further bait trying to use Religion, and political Ideology to inflame.....

You sir are Trolling the boards

If you repeat a lie you can get anyone to believe it. - The Big Lie

On that note I'd say that the DSM is a byproduct of The Big Lie.

I have also posted about other mental conditions such as drapetomania (mental illness for escaping slavery?), homosexuality previously being a mental illness, former psychiatrist journal from Thomas Szasz, doctor who invented ADHD that stated it was a fictitious disease.

Seriously alot of this just takes common sense to understand there isn't any mental illness. It's kind of insulting to be honest.

a reply to: Terry123

CIA will be indicted.

originally posted by: supermilkman
a reply to: cavtrooper7

Well those psychiatrists are making people worse with their medicine. There is NO benefit from psychiatric medicine.

You repeatedly surprise me with your ignorance...

ANYONE reading this thread who has had even the slightest insight into mental health, is just shaking their head at you....

I think you should chill out on the old internet research and go and get some life experience.

originally posted by: Quauhtli
a reply to: Indrasweb

Absolutely spot on!

I'd like to add my take, from a little experience living with someone with certain "conditions."

Mental illness is certainly just as real as mental wellness. In fact it's also very contagious to those who happen to be in close relations with effected people.

The human mind although complex and capable of extremely complicated and detailed interactions, it's also incapable of processing the complicatedness of so many choices and relations that we go through in our lives in today's world. There are clearly defined limits to short term memory and our ability to comprehend and react to everything in our lives. As we go through life trying to organise these choices and relations into something simple and comprehensible, we have to discard most of what we have to choose from. In short, our world is too complicated for our simple minds. We're still wired for living in direct contact with our environment, focusing on food and shelter etc..

The complicated array of paths, choices and so on puts us in a position as a group where a very high percentage of our community is lost to confusion. Each one of us individually has to deal with the mess.. those who choose to simplify their lives and deal with the not so "right" choices and move on with them are more likely to safe guard themselves from becoming mentally ill.. But we've all experienced some form of it, it's in all of us.

The real issue here is that we tend to treat illness in most of its forms by dealing directly with the symptoms. Most cases of mental illness can only truly be remedied by behaviour management and changes in our perception of our environment.

Mental illness diagnosing is also used for people that are maladaptive.

a reply to: Quauhtli

Your post touches on latent inhibition, which I only discovered last night because of my wife. She and I were both surprised she found something I didn't know! It was because she was watching Prison Break I think it's called?

Anyway, having Low Latent Inhibition combined with a high I.Q. apparently creates an individual who is seeing the forest and the trees, so to speak.

When I look at a chess board in any position, I watch a virtual video before my eyes play out all of the possibilities. Even if I know the line, I don't take the line for granted. I know the best move in memory, but I can't believe it without calculating again... I know that something hasn't been discovered yet.

If you have cut your nose hairs, I'll immediately deduce what time you cut them based upon what time it is now, where you last were, what you're wearing, how fresh you are, and even based on your attitude. Yet it's automatic, and also I think meaningless!

Yes indeed. But do I -really- have Low Latent Inhibition, or is this yet another Myers-Briggs type mumbo jumbo kind of thing?

Yeah, I is what I is.

a reply to: supermilkman

I had schizophrenia for 7 years and put on 3 different antipsychotics and antidepressants which somewhat helped mild down my symptoms of my illness but never healed me. They masked the symptoms is a better way to put it. It is certainly a real illness and only those suffering from it can truly understand it i think.

Every time i reduced my meds my schizophrenia would get worse. After 7 years i got sick of being doped up and drowsy all my life on the meds so after doing a lot of research on my Internet about weight training and diet in the gym i just threw all my meds in the bin and started the gym.

I lived with my best friend from childhood and that poor bloke went though hell to help me get well but i respect him for it with my life. I weight trained in the gym 3 days a week and did cardio for 2 days while resting every weekend. I beefed up my protein intake with my meals and supplemented protein shakes, ZMA and ate plenty of fruit/veg and stuck to wholegrain bread/rice etc

To start with my schizophrenia got worse for 2 weeks but i now attribute that to coming off the meds and my hormones rebalancing after years of staying in and being a couch potato veged out all the time. When i was manic i trained my ass off, and when i felt suicidal i trained even harder to punish myself.

Every time i spoke to someone or something that wasn't their my best pal was right their beside me to tell me i was hearing things so i told myself that it wasn't real what i was hearing so i would ignore it (and believe thats very hard to start with). But gradually after 4 months of this i started feeling great, the voices died down to when i was on the meds level and i got BIG and ripped fast! Lol not only did i feel great but i looked it too!

After around 8 months of doing this i felt almost normal and medication free that whole time. It had taken over a year to get fully better though my depression has never really left me.

So OP i can agree somewhat agree that mental illnesses are behavioural, as i retrained my brain that the voices wasn't real and thank the gods i had my best friend to help me know the difference. But it isn't entirely behavioural because it was an illness affecting my consciousness and even subconscious too and believe me schizophrenia is NO walk in the park.

Oh and the reason i took up training and binned the meds in the first place is because 7 years is taking the piss being left to be a veg the rest of my life. I had read also in my research into training that a healthy body can lead to healthy mind, i can say atleast in my case its true, but i cant say its true for evwryone, as each person has their own special requirements to get better, though id highly recommend training as it most certainly helps restore the bodies hormones and brain chemistry better than any medication ever can.

Ahhh, the troll thread is still running, is it?

As amusing as I'm sure you find it, please remember that there will be real people with real problems who might be reading this.

If this thread does anything, anything at all, to convince a single one of them not to seek help when they need it or to stop help they are already receiving, then I hope karma comes back to bite you on the arse