Obama commutes much of Chelsea Manning's sentence

You folks do know that people have been calling for the release of Chelsea Manning for at least a year? Over 100,000 people signed an online petition calling for the same and crowdfunding was underway for her legal bills. People were anticipating Obama would do this well before Assange's proposed deal so put your ulterior motive conspiracy hat back on the shelf. Sure, there may be some political motivation in the timing but it was still the humane thing to do.

Even our own blowhard pundit, Jesse Ventura called for her release in July of last year.

Jesse Ventura On Why Its Time to Free Chelsea Manning

originally posted by: Tempter
You just painted the UCMJ as biased. I really hope you have something to back that up. And we're talking about Manning's case here. Show me how he didn't receive what was due.

It is. She was confined to solitary and tortured for years (and yes, solitary is considered a form of torture) for making the government look bad. She would have been imprisoned regardless, but they took it one step further due to embarrassment.

Seven years is enough.

What was done, was the right thing. How she did it, was not. But commutation does not a pardon make. That, for me, would be a bridge too far.

originally posted by: Tempter
This is about encouraging soldiers to disobey

They should disobey when they're illegally being ordered to cover up evidence of a crime.

It's the same issue with Snowden. You cannot (legally) use the classification system as a way to hide criminal acts. When people do that, those acts should be revealed to the public.

Where Manning went too far was the diplomatic cables. Snowden in contrast never went too far, but he made himself look like a questionable source by running.

Good for that as her sentence should have been lessened. Though, I don't see a full benevolent intent here. Is something else planned for her Hill--- drone strike cough drone strike?).

originally posted by: tweetie
a reply to: Rosinitiate

I feel uneasy about this. I'm not able to trust Obama's motives. Of course it's good for Manning but...

Just a feeling.

Me too, tweetie. I wonder if this can be twisted somehow into a
precedent for anyone who "mishandles" state secrets to get
a no-jail card.
"..remind ye of anyone? Ferguson. YEah... probably her.
And we're thinking of the same violations of Title 42 too.

From my side and just off the top, it sweetly stinks bc the whatever
that did the whistleblower work also exposed a lot of covers.
Apple / orange difference... nobody in OUR intel at least, died
because of Chelsea: yet.

EDIT: And it looks like the alluded-to precedent will get Barry off
the hooks for pulling an indirect Pinochet for himself, if there ARE
indeed any crappy strings going from The Hil to the Commutator-in-Lotsa.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Tempter
This is about encouraging soldiers to disobey

They should disobey when they're illegally being ordered to cover up evidence of a crime.

It's the same issue with Snowden. You cannot (legally) use the classification system as a way to hide criminal acts. When people do that, those acts should be revealed to the public.

Where Manning went too far was the diplomatic cables. Snowden in contrast never went too far, but he made himself look like a questionable source by running.

Yes, unlawful orders should be disobeyed. But was he given an order to NOT steal the information?

a reply to: Rosinitiate>>>> I doubt Obama cares one whit about manning. But they probably want access to her and can't do what they want with her where she currently is. So get her released and go to town on her.

a reply to: Kali74

This tortured soul will likely never find peace anywhere. Manning is even confused about gender and unless he/she undergoes a complete name and identity change, will suffer for the rest of a shortened life. Statistically, these folks suicide much more often than those who live life as the gender they were born. I don't know if the suicide rate has to do with the loneliness and isolation, self loathing, second guessing an irreversible physical modification, or something else.

This is hilarious to me. People love to say how their leader Trump plays 4-dimensional grandmaster chess or whatever -- but this move by Obama was brilliant. Brilliant. Hat's off to you sir, Mr. Obama.

First of all, Obama called Assange's bluff. We'll see if he actually makes good on it. Obama isn't a fan of whistleblowers, and he's gained a lot of trust from the IC community in his 8 years behind the White House desk.

So either Assange turns himself over, or looks like an ass for not doing so. If he does turn himself in, he'll flip on the Russians in a New York minute -- I guarantee. And that, would be Trump's ... and the Kremlin's biggest nightmare.

Obama gets praise from the liberals who think it's the right thing to do, he gets nods of approval from the right-wingers who suddenly love Assange and WL for all the damage they did to Clinton...and even Libertarians have to give him some points, too.

So we have Obama and the intel community on one side, versus Trump and Putin/Kremlin on the other. Snowden isn't getting a pardon, and he isn't ever coming home. I bet Snowden isn't to happy with Wikileaks basically herding him to Russia, a place he'll never return from. It serves to make WL look even more in Russia's pocket in retrospect. Hell, Snowden is smart enough to realize WL is becoming a Russian propaganda arm -- they even had a little Twitter spat the other day back and forth.

If Assange comes to the USA, it'll fall into Trump's lap. If WL/Assange worked with Russia to get Trump elected Assange knows it, Trump knows it, Russia knows it, the CIA/FBI knows it -- and it'll be Trump's game to screw up. Whatever would happen, would be awkward as hell. And we all know how well Trump handles delicate situations...

I think Assange knows the show's over. He can't live in an Equadorian embassy forever. Perhaps WL was compromised and it wasn't really his idea to dump only negative Democrat documents. Maybe he just went along with it under duress? Who knows -- but I do know that Obama just threw a hot steaming pile into Trump's lap.

He erased a big stain on his administration, made a wide variety of people happy for various reasons, and really threw a freakin' curve ball at Trump/Russia to deal with.

And knowing Trump, he'll want to do something bigger...grander...he'll proabably offer Snoweden clemency or something. There's a problem with that -- technically, Snowden committed higher crimes. He pissed off the intel community far, FAR more than Manning did. Some argue Manning's treatment was an example after Snowden did what he did. That's how deep/fresh those wounds are.

Trump is already in the dump with the intelligence community -- imagine how pissed they'll be if he offers Snowden a pardon or something?

Oh man...there is no scenario in this where Obama looses. Obama wins all around, and puts Trump in an AWKWARD position, whether he's smart enough to realize it or not.

originally posted by: Kettu
This is hilarious to me. People love to say how their leader Trump plays 4-dimensional grandmaster chess or whatever -- but this move by Obama was brilliant. Brilliant. Hat's off to you sir, Mr. Obama.

First of all, Obama called Assange's bluff. We'll see if he actually makes good on it. Obama isn't a fan of whistleblowers, and he's gained a lot of trust from the IC community in his 8 years behind the White House desk.

So either Assange turns himself over, or looks like an ass for not doing so. If he does turn himself in, he'll flip on the Russians in a New York minute -- I guarantee. And that, would be Trump's ... and the Kremlin's biggest nightmare.

Obama gets praise from the liberals who think it's the right thing to do, he gets nods of approval from the right-wingers who suddenly love Assange and WL for all the damage they did to Clinton...and even Libertarians have to give him some points, too.

So we have Obama and the intel community on one side, versus Trump and Putin/Kremlin on the other. Snowden isn't getting a pardon, and he isn't ever coming home. I bet Snowden isn't to happy with Wikileaks basically herding him to Russia, a place he'll never return from. It serves to make WL look even more in Russia's pocket in retrospect. Hell, Snowden is smart enough to realize WL is becoming a Russian propaganda arm -- they even had a little Twitter spat the other day back and forth.

If Assange comes to the USA, it'll fall into Trump's lap. If WL/Assange worked with Russia to get Trump elected Assange knows it, Trump knows it, Russia knows it, the CIA/FBI knows it -- and it'll be Trump's game to screw up. Whatever would happen, would be awkward as hell. And we all know how well Trump handles delicate situations...

I think Assange knows the show's over. He can't live in an Equadorian embassy forever. Perhaps WL was compromised and it wasn't really his idea to dump only negative Democrat documents. Maybe he just went along with it under duress? Who knows -- but I do know that Obama just threw a hot steaming pile into Trump's lap.

He erased a big stain on his administration, made a wide variety of people happy for various reasons, and really threw a freakin' curve ball at Trump/Russia to deal with.

And knowing Trump, he'll want to do something bigger...grander...he'll proabably offer Snoweden clemency or something. There's a problem with that -- technically, Snowden committed higher crimes. He pissed off the intel community far, FAR more than Manning did. Some argue Manning's treatment was an example after Snowden did what he did. That's how deep/fresh those wounds are.

Trump is already in the dump with the intelligence community -- imagine how pissed they'll be if he offers Snowden a pardon or something?

Oh man...there is no scenario in this where Obama looses. Obama wins all around, and puts Trump in an AWKWARD position, whether he's smart enough to realize it or not.

wrong!

Obama loses because he's out in 48 hours! (Felt amazing to type that, btw.)

Why couldn't he pull this move earlier in the cycle?

I'll tell you why. Because this wasn't a stroke of genius and if it were due to ANY of the reasons you listed he'd have done it alsooner. No, this is about scoring points with his base. Nothing more.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

Before today I didn't know much about what Chelsea Manning did. But after listening to the CNN radio nut-jobs condemn her early release, I'm very thankful to President Obama for commuting her sentence.

originally posted by: pteridine
This tortured soul will likely never find peace anywhere. Manning is even confused about gender and unless he/she undergoes a complete name and identity change, will suffer for the rest of a shortened life. Statistically, these folks suicide much more often than those who live life as the gender they were born. I don't know if the suicide rate has to do with the loneliness and isolation, self loathing, second guessing an irreversible physical modification, or something else.

Sorry, can't let this go. Did anyone expect I would?

Chelsea Manning has been diagnosed by Army doctors as having gender dysphoria. She goes by female pronouns and has been taking female hormones so her "name and identity" have already been changed. She is transgender.

Yes, statistically 40/41% of transgender people will attempt suicide sometime in their life. Chelsea has already tried twice for which she was punished with solitary confinement. Generally, it is lack of access to treatment, family and societal pressures and attitudes are what drive trans people to suicide plus being trans and going through the process of transition is no bed of roses. Comorbid conditions such as anxiety and depression are also usually associated with having gender dysphoria and in fact, the level of one's distress is considered a measure of the condition.

The standard protocols for the successful treatment of gender dysphoria are recognized by all major medical organizations throughout the world backed by decades and decades of scientific research and study. Transitioning saves lives, period. The vast majority of people that do transition to the opposite gender do not undergo the so called "sex change" operation. For those that do, rates of dissatisfaction and/or regret are 1% to 4% with many current studies reporting 0% cases of regret or unhappiness in their post-operative patients.

Transgender people can live healthy, fulfilling and productive lives after transition. Getting there is the hard part and I worry that the ordeal that Manning has been through and the public scrutiny and attention she will now be subject to once thrust into the limelight as a trans activist has or will be damaging and very difficult. Let's hope she receives the therapy and counseling she needs to be able to move on with her life.

a reply to: pteridine

Been thinking about this off and on for a few hours, and she'll be fine, if people will leave her alone to get on with her life. Perusing some of the opinions posted on line, not just here, but elsewhere as well, that seems unlikely, for the nonce, to happen.

Which is a shame. She's served her time. If people have a problem with Obama granting clemency, or shortening the sentence, or even pardoning, take it up with him. What is Manning supposed to do, say no? I sure as Hell wouldn't. In the grand scheme of things, as this is totally legal, don't we have other things to worry about? I certainly do.

Why release her? She's no longer safe now? Who knows...

I she winds up dead somewhere, you know why she was released early. lol...

a reply to: Tempter

You wouldn't be very good at chess, would you?

He timed this masterfully.

In order to dump an uncomfortable mess on your successor, you have to do it with little to no time for the successor to prepare.

Trump is going to have this dumped onto his lap at the midnight hour, right as he takes the office.

Trump isn't even playing checkers...whilst Obama leaves office, a grand-master of multi-dimensional strategic chess.

Now I know why Obama's releasing this person. She's a tranny. I was confused. I thought their was 2 different people being held or something?

But the Navy guy who took a few submarine pictures is still in jail? Not hard to figure this one out. typical bizarre Obama moves.

2 more days. Hopefully I will be holding the Bible at the Inauguration.

I've skimmed back through this thread and admit I've heard some interesting theories about the timing of all this and involvement with Assange, Snowden et. al. and have made the observation that there are multiple perspectives on the same story.

Some are about political wrangling and intricately contrived strategies for public opinion. Some people think she's been through enough, served longer than most for the same crime and for what we know, going through the process of gender transition. Some think she should rot for 35 years. There are many interesting views but I'd like to add yet another just for the sake of intelligent conversation and because some of you may not be exposed to these perspectives?

With matters of crimes aside, whether she's a traitor or brave whistleblower and disregarding political chess maneuvering over the whole thing, what I and many others connect to in this story is the part about Bradley becoming Chelsea. For those going through this process and for those that have, the pain of having to be in a men's prison and having inadequate treatment and access to appropriate resources is something akin to a horror story or worst nightmare for trans people.

The LGB and T communities are holding her up as an icon or trans hero and this bothers me. Sure, it's easy to empathize with her struggles, especially if you've been there but the truth is, we really don't know that much about Chelsea. Trans people are said to be resilient but with the ordeal she has been through, I can't imagine she is not in somewhat of a fragile state and I think some are expecting her to become a trans representative/spokesperson the second she walks out of prison? I hope she doesn't become a martyr.


No. Just no.

Heck, there's only been a drawing and one sketchy photograph of her circulating for the last six years and without having any real life experience of being able to live in the world as a girl, I'm just a bit worried that she will be hounded by the media and thrust into the spotlight and onto a pedestal by the trans and LGB communities. Maybe she's ready for this and the public support will help her through or it all could be too much? PTSD anyone?

I've read several things today that have said the time between when a prisoner has their sentence commuted and the time they are actually released is the most dangerous. I can see how this would be true for many reasons but this poor kid has a lot of extra to deal with when coming to terms with life on the outside.

So yeah, I've thought about the Manning saga on a more personal level and it's hard for me to not feel empathy with her situation and to have an interest to see how that side of the story works out. Parts of it hit pretty close to a home I visited once.

originally posted by: Doctor Smith
She's a tranny. I was confused.

Maybe you're also confused that the majority of transgender people also consider "tranny" a slur? If you are clear on that, then you're just a jerk.

Assange did say he would turn himself over to the US if Manning was released. I wonder how he is feeling now?
If he does turn himself over, a lot of new information might be forthcoming on the so called Russian hacks...

a reply to: Freija

"Tranny" is a slur?
I would have thought a word is only a slur if it is intended as such.