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Please, please...PUH-LEEZE!!!

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posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 07:59 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
But lefties, IME, have a real fondness for this idea that we ought to be able to find some solution that will work like a charm for every single person out there, all the time. They seem to forget that we're all individuals, and there will never be an answer or system that will work perfectly for everyone, but imposing the so-called perfect fit will automatically doom people because they will guarantee a lack of flexibility for people in the system to find answers on their own.

I found this to be a common theme behind many of America's ghost towns. Lefties got in charge and made rules. People who earned money packed up and left.




posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 08:03 AM
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Flyingclaydisk, I might be understanding better than you think. Let me describe what I comprehend, and you can tell me how close I am.

I do make the comment that provoking upset is part of the attraction (and make a reference to your earlier comment on why you posted this - because the upset of those who respond is so amusing).

Yet I get that this is not simply a desire to have fun at the expense of others. The way I have explained it to some of french colleagues last week at lunch was this-

The American people are, by and large, feeling they've been abused, used and lied to by the current systems. The need for change is becoming overwhelming, and yet they've been grappling with the fear of it at the same time.
When you want to jump, but your fear is holding you back, you waver and quiver on the edge for a while, until you sort of do a violent sudden throwing yourself off the edge. In a way that is perhaps more violent than necessary.

We all know that any big change means a death as well as rebirth- it means you have to destroy before you build up.
In the deepest part of our mind, birth and death, creation and destruction, are the same thing.

Trump has been elected because he's going to basically bring up chaos and burn the world (figuratively, I hope). He's going to f- it up, he's going to wreck america and walk out with his pockets full as he has a record of doing. He's the wrecking ball. It will hurt, but someone has to do it if we are going to start over. He's our suicide tool.

If he stops being a wrecking ball crashing through everything then he will not be serving his purpose, and you guys will find another.

I think for some people, Obama also signified such a wrecking ball of systems... but you guys were still too afraid. You were teetering on the edge... and now we're at the dramatic flinging over the edge instead. I do think this is a collective suicide. But in order to be reborn.


edit on 16-1-2017 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 08:07 AM
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originally posted by: AnkhMorpork
a reply to: andrewh7

But could you be persuaded with a well-informed rational argument founded in reason and logic and a love for the sake and cause of what's best and in everyone's enlightened mutual best interest?

As you've pointed out and as I also mentioned a page back, the OP is a total fail.

It's worse in a way than accomplishing nothing whatsoever except to alienate while making one's self appear to be right or even righteous to another's wrong.

There are a whole host of reasons why something leaning a little more in favor of libertarianism can best protect and preserve the space of freedom and why free market capitalism and individual self-determination is the basis by which true Liberal ideas can be expressed in society, but it has to be tolerant and inclusive, not we're right and you're all idiots.

A Liberal is really someone who cares very deeply about social inequalities and economic and social justice, and we all know that the system is just inadequate to the task and that therefore, bigger government and bureaucracy cannot be the answer.

Hillary Clinton was in many ways bat # crazy. We all know it, even those of us who once supported her. Outwardly she's one thing, inwardly, she's a terror and a tyrant.

Liberty was and is being eroded in the spheres of public opinion according to a dialectic which seeks to draw up sides as per the way the MSM has handled this, and right now, that's the fault of the left who offer nothing except anti-Trump outrage, and that's no basis for a conversation either.

Sanity must somehow be restored.

Truth and reality and authentic justice and leadership must somehow prevail.

Trump should stop grandstanding, lay off twitter and get set to work with Bannon essentially remaking government to serve a cause of Freedom imbedded in the Judeo-Christian ideal (properly understood).

Let everyone else laud the progress that's being made.

When Trump speaks it should be via well crafted and well acted (authentically) speeches, speeches that he's memorized and can deliver, so as to pack more information into what's being shared with the American people and what is being asked of them in terms of their participation and consent.

Somehow he has to win half of the other half over, at the very least, by letting them in on what he's doing by doing it right and then letting the results speak for themselves.

The media circus has to be silenced. Don't give them anything except everything that you intend to deliver.

Just get it all done, don't bother talking, and when you do, talk right and communicate straight all the right ideas and information.


If I were Bannon, I'd work up a dossier for Trump that would contain the whole message in all of it's myriad components rendered in a Trump-like manner.

This document, by reading and re-reading it over and over again until it's fully "grokked", would give Trump the needed language to describe the plan of action in such a way and manner that the American people will be able to support it and get behind it, without all this fist shaking and angst at the mere prospect of Trump's election.

What's more American?

The left aren't really following the American way right now, but they must be led with persuasive, rational arguments which appeal to our highest common denominator and shared common values and interests.

The description for what Bannon and Trump are wanting to achieve hasn't even been written yet.

That's what I'd be working on is a type of manual covering in details the 101 things the Trump administration wishes to accomplish on behalf of the American people in a spirit of Americanism before globalism with fairer trade deals and practices, etc etc.

It needs to be mind-mapped.

Hearts and minds are won with IDEAS, and it's that essential idea in all of it's myriad forms that contains imbedded within itself the power to remake the country and history according to an ideal that's in closer alignment with the spirit and intentions of the founding fathers.


Pirates be gone.


This is a super post.

However, whilst I agree with the general tenet of what you are saying, I do not think it realistic.
I would love it to be the case that a strategy of collaboration and a consistent inclusive message would work in bringing the two sides together, but I fear that time is passed.

Solution #7 from you video suggests staging a counter coup and taking back control.
I agree with that solution, and it's under way. Taking back control, however, is going to require some tougher measures beyond diplomacy or marketing.

The 'pirates' already know they are in the wrong. They already know what they do is not for the benefit of all. They are so entrenched that they would rather die than concede any ground, let alone meet half way.

I fear that the only way to take control is to engage in similar tactics that the pirates used to seize it in the first place.
This means reorganising institutions and reversing the social engineering of the past decade, cleansing schools and universities of bad actors poisoning youth, removing those in federal institutions that have become too politicised, bringing criminals to justice, ... we could go on... but it's not going to be pretty if it is going to be effective.

Half measures will result in the counter coup failing.
edit on 16/1/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 08:12 AM
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a reply to: Snarl

Interesting parallel there. I'm a big American old west ghost town hunter and historian. It's interesting to see the different, contrasting, perspectives on these towns.

To the originators, many of these towns were created simply as a matter of convenience. In many respects the early inhabitants viewed the towns as almost 'disposable'. One needs only to look at some of their locations to confirm this. Over time others came and 'dug in', they made it "home". Indeed some of these later arrivals did try to bring a more civilized lifestyle to the otherwise lawless and chaotic encampments.

Honestly, I've never really contemplated a left/right angle to these places although this may be worth some consideration now that you mention it.

Interesting thought!



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 08:13 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko


With most people on the left, they think there should be one system for everyone, but when you go around and look at places where people are left to come up with their own ways of doing things, you find all kinds of innovative and workable solutions ... things that sometimes make lefties' hair stand on end with their unorthodoxness, but they are working and quite well for that particular place.


Oh, I won't agree with that. I think a whole lot of "righties" also think they have the perfect system in mind for everyone!
How often do we see the ones that proclaim "free market capitalism is the only solution in existence that always works".

Rather than see such tendencies as being right or left, I see them as human in general. Everyone wants to separate the subject from the context - simply ignore relation altogether and focus on objects, which are inherently good or bad... because it is easy. It is easy to put everything into some black and white classification in mind, and be a sort of omnipotent judge from then on. It is very securizing.

Seeing everything as relative feels really insecure and means one would have to be super aware in every moment, engaged , in order to ascertain the relation.

ETA - also, regarding your last sentences in that quote, you know the right has exactly the same challenges!!! There are countries were things like universal medicine, gun control, paid maternity leave for fathers and mothers, etc. is being done and works for them. Yet the right goes into denial about that too.
edit on 16-1-2017 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 08:32 AM
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a reply to: Bluesma

So, I'm not sure if you're stating what I feel, or just your observations. When you say "you" I'm not sure if you're referring to me personally, or Americans in general. I will try to address both perspectives.

First, I personally don't view Obama as a wrecking ball of anything. If anything, he was probably more of a wet towel than anything else (at least in the end). I did have some hopes for him initially, certainly in the areas of racial relations, but boy was I wrong there! Doesn't matter now though.

I probably do view Trump more as a wrecking ball, but a wrecking ball to smash establishment mentality and status quo. I certainly don't view him as "our suicide tool", but rather as a person who can break down some barriers which need to be broken down.

Again, I must restate; I did not make this thread for my own amusement (in any way shape or form). Yes, I have made some flippant and cavalier remarks, but generally these were in response to some pretty inflammatory allegations. Truth be known, these statements were really more of an illustration of the polarization of an equally obtuse and opposite posture. At the same time, despite all of the vitriol towards myself and others, it really doesn't get under my skin. Why? Because what I want to get to is the solution, or at least onto the right path. I realize there's going to be some harsh realities along this path. We should expect nothing less.

Real solutions won't come until we can get past all this, and one of the best ways to get past something is to get it all out into the open. Until it all comes out there will always be those who are harboring some axe they will wish to grind at some future point, and this is counter-productive.

If I recall correctly, you've previously said you work/worked in some area of developmental therapy (I can't recall what area) (forgive me if that is an incorrect way to refer to it). Consequently, I would posit that you would agree all these ill feelings need to get out before the real healing can begin.

This has been, and continues to be, my point.



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 08:37 AM
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a reply to: Bluesma

For my part, you will notice (or should take notice) I have not excluded the "right" from any of what I am saying.

I have tried to use stereotypes to pry some of these left/right emotions to the surface, but there are clearly challenges on both sides!



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 08:49 AM
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originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: Bluesma

So, I'm not sure if you're stating what I feel, or just your observations. When you say "you" I'm not sure if you're referring to me personally, or Americans in general. I will try to address both perspectives.


I guess there was a moment I meant you individually, in refering to the comment you wrote on why you posted this... but the rest was refering to a more general group - those who are Trump supporters. In this part of the world, nobody seems to understand what is going on and how he ended up where he is. Because they ask me a lot, I have had to work towards listening to those who in question, and try to understand them.

I know those people do not right now see Obama as someone brought in to f-up the system.
But remember, he wanted to touch the Constitution and you all panicked!

What, pray tell, would be a bigger chunk blown out of the traditional system in the US than to finally shoot a hole throw the sacred constitution???

The people who voted for him also hoped he do a bunch of radical things, that scared the b-jeezus out of half the population.

I do see that you guys think he will be a weapon you can control - he will blow up only that which you want him to blow up, and nothing else.

In my personal opinion, that is a mistake. I get the same feeling when I see beginner horseowners pick out the most troubled and dangerous horse in the pen because they are sure they will form a magical black stallion thing with it and it will remain dangerous for everyone else except them. You know that , I bet. Where you just shake your head and walk away muttering some less than flattering words...? Good luck with that. Who knows, maybe you're right. I hope so.

But he is here to break things and screw up order and systems, not create order and peace.

I used to do therapy for people with horses, but am now in importing and exporting - international trade.

Yes, I know people need to vent. I get that. I just have a tendency to get impatient with it after a while, and ready to move on past into constructive exchange. I have seen that people (and animals) can get sort of addicted to the acting out venting stage, as they taste the positive effects of it.



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 09:05 AM
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originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
Honestly, I've never really contemplated a left/right angle to these places although this may be worth some consideration now that you mention it.

I can't take credit for the idea. I took my kids with me on a trip across the US as we were on our way out to Korea on my last tour. I figured it'd be the last chance for it.

Can't remember the route we took out of Texas, but it was littered with these places 'til we hit the mountains in AZ and had to steady up on a main HWY. There was at least one local curmudgeon selling gas at strategic waypoints ... and they were all too willing to share the history they knew in civil discourse. The stories they told almost seemed like they all studied from the same book. It was almost a little eerie.

My kids showed me a movie called The Hills Have Eyes ... and we all had a good laugh at how we managed to survive that trip. Good memories though. That trip did make me change my opinion about who Wyatt Earp and his brothers were. They're made out to be heroes of the West, but one can casually overlook the way they violated everyone's 2d Amendment rights, when you're focused on them clobbering 'the bad guys'.

Did you know the largest Rose Bush in the world grows in Tombstone?




posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 09:12 AM
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originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk


What is wierd is that the lefties are all very successful, very wealthy professionals. They also have children who are successful, and are all hardworking. None of them left their children to be raised by the state, eating state paid meals at school, being on state medical programs....except my dad. Th one guy that was irresponsible and benefitted most from social services is the one that is against it now.

Well, not all lefties are successful. I have met many who are working class folks who kick, cry, and scream when their opinion doesn't trump that of others. I also disagree that all of their children were not raised by the state.

But, for the most part I do agree that many of leftist politicians are financially successful, went to college, and their children go to private schools, etc. It's all so hypocritical and a disgrace to the country quite frankly.

In my opinion, a lot of the leftist supporters are not that smart. This is why they can't made a deal, or support their opinion without doing unethical things, like writing executive orders, or saying that Trump should be given fake intelligence briefings.

The people who are not that smart tend to react emotionally, typically uncontrollably, to any type of criticism or challenge. They still will be successful at certain things, as the Dilbert Principle would show. But, they would never be any very successful person in the private sector because they could never deal with the brutal arguing and difficult thinking it takes. The Obama's law licenses are not even active. Go figure.



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 09:35 AM
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originally posted by: rxh0272



Were you trying to say this?? ...(you had it buried in some BB Code with errors)




What is wierd is that the lefties are all very successful, very wealthy professionals. They also have children who are successful, and are all hardworking. None of them left their children to be raised by the state, eating state paid meals at school, being on state medical programs....except my dad. Th one guy that was irresponsible and benefitted most from social services is the one that is against it now.

Well, not all lefties are successful. I have met many who are working class folks who kick, cry, and scream when their opinion doesn't trump that of others. I also disagree that all of their children were not raised by the state.

But, for the most part I do agree that many of leftist politicians are financially successful, went to college, and their children go to private schools, etc. It's all so hypocritical and a disgrace to the country quite frankly.

In my opinion, a lot of the leftist supporters are not that smart. This is why they can't made a deal, or support their opinion without doing unethical things, like writing executive orders, or saying that Trump should be given fake intelligence briefings.

The people who are not that smart tend to react emotionally, typically uncontrollably, to any type of criticism or challenge. They still will be successful at certain things, as the Dilbert Principle would show. But, they would never be any very successful person in the private sector because they could never deal with the brutal arguing and difficult thinking it takes. The Obama's law licenses are not even active. Go figure.

edit on 1/16/2017 by Flyingclaydisk because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 09:57 AM
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For the thumb sucking snowflakes...They will learn, or they will go down with the ship. I don't really care either way. I think even the lefties know what's wrong, they don't want to change it out of fear.

This is not the Democrats of JFK. These are Commiecrats. They hate the US Constitution. They call it an ancient relic that is not relevant today. The Senate Democrats of today are truly... Un-American.



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 10:09 AM
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Divisive crap like this thread (I only quickly browsed the OP), is why I spend way less time on this AMERICAN RIGHTWING website than I used.



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 10:15 AM
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originally posted by: droid56
Divisive crap like this thread (I only quickly browsed the OP), is why I spend way less time on this AMERICAN RIGHTWING website than I used.


It's the mud-pit... you can say stuff like "right wing jerk-offs" and "looney Libs" here. So, right-wing jerk-offs who tend to over generalize everything and paint the left with broad brush strokes can post all of their divisive vitriol here. Makes 'em feel like they're relevant... but we know the truth.



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 10:24 AM
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a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Logged in only to star and flag the OP.

I'm seeing this too. Some of the posts I read online seem to be written by the Mad Hatter himself. It's insane. The left has gone completely unhinged.

Now I don't agree with all of Trump's stances, and I specifically do not like his plan to replace obamacare (it should be destroyed and not replaced) but he was the best choice. He was elected for his stances on immigration and jobs. Two major issues that need to be addressed and the left simply can not address them. The issues are too controversial and the left is too PC to touch them.

But it needs to be done. We can't have millions of illegals here, an unsecured border letting more come in, and endless outsourcing of our jobs, and not have severe economic consequences. Everyone who can objectively look at our job market knows it has gotten worse every year obama has been in office.

They had 8 years to change things, and the only change was to make things even worse than they were before. Their time is up. Hand the reigns over and don't let the door hit your butts on the way out.

I think deep down, they know all this. They can't bring themselves to admit their left wing ideology doesn't work in reality, and they know that obama is leaving the country worse off than when he took office, and they are absolutely terrified that when Trump leaves office, he will leave the country much better off. This will drive another nail into the coffin of their ideology, revealing the failure of socialism and entitlements to yet another generation of Americans.

Of course they will indoctrinate our children and try again in 15 to 20 years anyway, because "If we try socialism just a little bit different next time..."



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 10:44 AM
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a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Here-here.



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 11:24 AM
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a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

The left is absolutely TERRIFIED their entire way of life, their gravy train, will vanish before their eyes, and Gawd forbid they might have to actually work in a competitive work environment where work is evaluated on actual merit and performance. They absolutely LOATHE the notion that the color of one's skin, or one's gender, or one's ethnic background will no longer serve as an excuse (for everything). (GULP!) They may even have to actually provide for themselves (PERISH the thought!!!).

Wow you are truly a disgusting person. I can see the racist overtones on your writing. Really sad to see a white 54 year old male complaint about the LEFT and talk about merit and performance. I am pretty sure your white ass made itself in to something all by yourself, no help from anyone. LOL so typical. Im glad that at 54 you have decided to do something with your life and come and rant at ATS. Have another Drink, and be easy on them pills. Big Pharma loves you.



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 11:39 AM
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originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
originally posted by: rxh0272


Well, not all lefties are successful. I have met many who are working class folks who kick, cry, and scream when their opinion doesn't trump that of others. I also disagree that all of their children were not raised by the state.

But, for the most part I do agree that many of leftist politicians are financially successful, went to college, and their children go to private schools, etc. It's all so hypocritical and a disgrace to the country quite frankly.



I guess I didn't word myself well, I spoke of my family in particular -not yours, not anyone elses, and certainly NOT ALL left winged people!!! I just mentioned that being exposed to that particular case makes me want to reject the idea that all left wingers are people using their race or gender as an excuse to not work and live off the state!

I even said some probably do, but it cannot make a reliable generalization, much less an explanation for the motives of the left. Fear of having their benefits (gravy train) taken away doesn't explain the ones who know that the things they want would cause them to pay MORE taxes.

But I'll agree with you on one thing - hypocrisy abounds wherever you go. That as kind of my point about my dad, who is sort of attacking everything he once did and was, through others now. It's like Ayn Rand living off state aid healthcare .Or people fighting for social justice through hostile attacks on other people. Some sort of bias blinker comes in and you get hypocrisy and self contradiction on any side.



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 11:58 AM
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a reply to: Bluesma

The difference between the idea of free market being the best way and the left's way being the best way. Is that the left's way is this is the only way as opposed the right's way which is make up your own way. That is what "free" means.

If you are a lefty, then you live your life and it works for you and things are great, and you say, "Wow! This is a great way to live life. It works well for me. I've turned out great. Now if only everyone else lived this way, ate this way, thought this way ... the world would be great and no one would have any problems."

So the lefty sets out to try to force everyone else to be exactly like he is. He sets up grandiose schemes that attempt to force others to live like him, eat like him, think and believe like him, and he gets confused and upset and angry when it doesn't work well and others resist. Sometimes, he even gets murderous (like we see in Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao if the lefty has great enough power).

The thing he forgets is that everyone is different, and individual, and that lifestyle, diet, and system of thought and belief that works so well for the lefty personally doesn't work for so many others. And their lifestyles aren't going to work for the lefty either.

That's why the right likes freedom and choice. You get to decide what your system is and if you want to let others tell you how to think and eat and believe, then have at, but no one gets to force you to be what you aren't or do what doesn't work for you like so many lefty systems are going to.

And if a system doesn't have that freedom for me to opt out of it, then it isn't the right system for me.



posted on Jan, 16 2017 @ 12:05 PM
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a reply to: Bluesma

That wasn't actually my post. I just fixed the BBCODE so it would show up. There was a problem with it and I wasn't sure if he/she knew how to fix it.




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