Is there a dumbing down of music

a reply to: supermilkman

Tunas fr continuing to respond , I have a better appreciation where you are coming from now. Thats a good thing.

You're right about hip hop and lost themes. I delve into everything, keeps me balanced...
Life out of balance...

Because you're sophisticated, enjoy 'classical' order and (of course) seen Koyannisquatsi.

Enjoy...

The short answer is yes.

Music is simply the plural of muse, that which entertains, that which gives inspiration.

Entertainment and inspiration, particularly in the mainstream, has been crippled by those who chose shock value over development of content.

Production masks the horrible lack of talent in the industry as well. It also eclipses the great talent that decries some levels of production.

But people will listen to what they want. So it's just as much the fault of the audience as it is the responsibility of the artist.

Pentatonix is an excellent example of hidden latent talent which reveals that we have the capacity to outdo ourselves still, even in the mainstream.

But this is so rare. Producers know this is rare. No one hates how bad the environment is as much as producers.

But no one can make it better like a producer can, either.

Mainstream, I mean. That which is shared. Some hide their little light and don't shine, so we do not get the full picture of our potential.

As well, an excellent songwriter could be poor and never get a radio ready recording and may never get acknowledged based upon some stipulations now put forth in the new industry.

If you don't have 10,000 Facebook followers at the very least, forget you on anything besides a gig where you end up being screwed by the promoter or venue owner - unless you rub shoulders with the right people.

If you don't have a professional EP as a demo, or if you're not an excellent producer yourself, forget trying the above.

If you don't have a smash hit on YouTube, go back to the drawing board. People don't want brilliant inspiration in music, generally. They want boobs, voice, dance, face, and body. Pick 3 of 5.

Unless you've mastered your instrument beyond what has ever been seen before - . Even then, these days that monopoly belongs to CandyRat Studios and a few others on YouTube. Good luck.

And thanks to the moving picture (or should we thank the moving picture?) Music isn't just sound. It's a multimedia event. Has been for hundreds of years.

The music we love from the past is so impactful to us because of our memory of the environment within which we heard it. Standing alone, connections as to what light the sound intends to convey would be code for those who didn't perceive in this way.

Driving with the windows down at night in the summer downtown? That's responsible for the love of so much country, rap, rock, etc.

Sitting at home near the furnace? Responsible for the love of classical radio.

Sitting in a silent packed theatre with all the glamour, perfume, light shows...

But then imagine you're in a gang on the street. The smell of gun fire, the anxiety of paranoia. Living in a #ty apartment or home, unclean, owned by scumbags and liars who manipulate you. Or maybe you just hate life. Yeah - there's a soundtrack associated with that.

Unless those in the aforementioned environment play a video game or watch movies which alter their environment, planting them firmly in fantasy land. Then the death rap and death metal tends to be something like white noise, always there, never quite pervading the security of the listener.

And the spoiled, those who know nothing of true insecurity, and their latching onto of every gimmick and pop plot. While talent therein may reside every now and then, it's the salespeople that remove some inspiration. But that happens if the producer itself does not feel 100% sold on a project as well. Or it's an amateur producer that doesn't know how to use a small chain instead of a really long convoluted one.

Yeah, inspiration, on the mainstream, is severely reduced. It's not non-existent though.

We just can't rely on the gate keepers to be our only source of inspiration, lest we learn to comprehend in the manner which they intend, thereby having our hearts turned by those who only sought fame and money above preaching their message.

a reply to: supermilkman

I find it super ironic that you mentioned one of the rare Skrillex pieces that I find musical and nice sounding. I've been djaying for 15+ years, I compose and create music and I have been playing piano ever since 7y old. I enjoy classical music greatly. Outside of my "work" I mostly listen to classical, chillstep and synthesizer music, combined with some deep vocal house and (mosty progressive) trance.

I can say with good conscience that there is still extremely well made, melodic, harmonic and clever rhytmical music in the electronic music. However your "generic" pop/dance music is super dumbed down indeed, but I cannot say with a any honestly that I would take "old school rap/rnb" musically "well made" in any sense of the word. The riffs are actually boring and repeating as hell, mostly sampled/ripped and the "rapping" is so mind-numbingly boring I cannot stand for the repeating simple "musical/vocal phrases" they use over and over again. For every possible genre there is of course an exception and good songs, but that's not relevant really.

From "complexity" point of things you cannot really compare any "true classical music" to modern(ish) music, but I think it's quite silly and elitistic to claim all modern/electronic music is simple, dumb or "not great".

I know plenty of progressive trance songs and similar which have very complex harmonies and they show the composers know a thing, two or plenty about music, musical theory and have "the skills"(tm).

The basics of "music making is really "simple" when you know the theory, but the trick is to find new harmonies and combinations of simple runs, arpeggios or mini-melodies to make "something new". We only have this 12 notes to work with in different octaves (in western music) yet the combinations are almost endless, as the sound(s together) will make the same note sound "different" depending of the context.

But yeah, sadly it's true that as EVERYTHING has been dumbed-down, music in general has gone the same way. Or rather "your average person" wants to be cheaply entertained with mass-produced disposable music, instead of wanting real spiritual or life altering experiences, which good music can deliver.

I can personally listen to almost anything, but I cannot stand most pretentious (in my mind) jazzy/bluesy music, hardcore metal/punk and similar. Yet I can enjoy some girlish(tm) gothic metal or other harmonic and melodic stuff.

For me, music is foremost about melodies, secondly about harmonics, thirdly about rhythms and fourthly about "the sound". Hence a killer proge/house piece with a fresh sound can give me immerse pleasure, even if it's not life altering and spiritual like Allegri's Miserere mei or something similar. But I do know tastes vary and some people prefer "rhythm over melody" or the other way around.

a reply to: PilgriMage

Right on. The melody is the muse.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: supermilkman

from your own quote

and it raises certain expectations in an audience attuned to its language.

"audience attuned to it's language" Are you trying to tell me you were born enjoying classical music. I would guess that you were indirectly listening to some pop tunes that your parents radio was playing at the time. Classical music you acquired later?

Philip Glass does classical music ..not to everyones taste. I admire him for his work

Nowextend your musical taste and listen to some fine "technically proficient" musicians
King Crimson - Red

RED is great stuff. God, I miss Wetton. Tony Levin is just weak and boring.

originally posted by: supermilkman
a reply to: Junkheap

That's not music. That's annoying.

I hope you realize I wasn't being serious, right?

Anyway, one of my favorite classical musicians was Johann Sebastian Bach.

Here's an arrangement that I did of 'Little Fugue In G Minor'. It took me about two months to do this.

I think it is forgotten by many but BAD music exists during all time eras. We only remember the good stuff. But for how much the OP is waxing poetic about classical music, there is JUST as much crap from the Baroque and Classical periods as there is today.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I think it is forgotten by many but BAD music exists during all time eras. We only remember the good stuff. But for how much the OP is waxing poetic about classical music, there is JUST as much crap from the Baroque and Classical periods as there is today.

The primary difference is that there was a time when the bad stuff wasn't praised at the shake of a booty or a fanning of gold coins or a pimped out chariot or with heads on spikes dripping with blood - all for the masses to indulge and cry, "the voice of a god!"

What is music? Music is an art form. Correct? What is the purpose of art? To elicit a response, that is the purpose, to create an emotion.

Paintings range from lifelike representations to abstract, and as far as minimalism, such as Mondrian. Is a minimalist painting from Mondrian a dumbing down of art? Or is it an actual more intelligent form of art? Artists began to realize that art really breaks down to composition, and can create a response by simple line, color, and shape. Everything else is just extra that appeals to different people in different ways.

Music is the same way. What about a capella? No musical instruments at all, but requires talent. Sure, classical music has a lot of things going on, but it doesn't elicit an emotion that agrees with everyone. Even rap music requires skills that perhaps Bach could not pull off. Is Bach a lyricist? A poet? Can he throw down some rhymes? Can a classical musician sing with the emotion of Kurt Cobain?

Honestly, classical music and most metal puts me to sleep. Yes, metal puts me to sleep. I like music where I can feel the emotions of the artist. I don't feel emotions of the musician in most classical music. It's more like, hey, look at all these complicated forms of music I can put together. Some music I like, My Morning Jacket, Jim James' voice is amazing, and the songs are beautiful, and sometimes rock. Ryan Adams, a poet, and you can feel his emotions. Believe it or not, one of the most emotional artists out there, in my opinion, is Eminem. Listen to his raps, you can feel his emotions pouring through his music. And he throws some words together that embarrass most modern rappers.

But anyway, sit up there on your high horse, and pretend that everyone else listens to dumb music. As you see, going through this thread, everyone reacts differently to music. Keep your pretentious classical music.

a reply to: whatmakesyouright

Not all ways in which emotions are generated should be considered art.

As well, the purpose of art is actually to build. Music does not inspire by creating emotions - emotions exist without music. Music inspires by recalling emotions.

Some inspiration is evil. Some inspiration is good.

Music, as an art form, and just like any other art, science, or skill, can be performed for the wrong reasons and can inspire negative thoughts and behaviors.

One is fine to call that art, but it is indeed the dumbing down of the art. It takes much more talent to convert negative energy into relational energy and positive energy than it does to simply capitalize on the negative itself.

Thinking individuals, wise, enjoy the revelations in the progression of a piece. "I wanna kill my momma and my girlfriend" doesn't leave much room for consideration or revelation. It's inspiring, but not the way one should be inspired.

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I think it is forgotten by many but BAD music exists during all time eras. We only remember the good stuff. But for how much the OP is waxing poetic about classical music, there is JUST as much crap from the Baroque and Classical periods as there is today.

The primary difference is that there was a time when the bad stuff wasn't praised at the shake of a booty or a fanning of gold coins or a pimped out chariot or with heads on spikes dripping with blood - all for the masses to indulge and cry, "the voice of a god!"

So? How is that relevant? The simple matter is that bad music has always existed. It has always outnumbered the good stuff. The good stuff ends up getting remembered fondly. This distorts people's biases of the past when they compare it to the flavor of the month pop song. So they say that there is only bad stuff out there these days. That is bull#. There is plenty of good stuff out there. Heck there is even good stuff on the radio still.

I also find it narrow minded to proclaim that ONLY classical style music can be complex or intricate. Jam and improv music has gotten extremely complex as I showed with the Umphrey's McGee song on the previous page.

On top of all of this, complexity and depth doesn't even MAKE good music. Some of the best songs in the world are surprisingly simple and shallow. That is because music isn't a game of bests. It's just what is pleasant and entertaining to your ears.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Nothing that you said was a rebuttal to anything that I said at all, besides, "So?". And to that I say, "therein lies the dumbing down of music".

Everything else you said was not a response to me at all, so not sure why you quoted me.

I agree that good music doesn't have to be complicated and even further that it probably shouldn't be, lest it's uninspiring because of its lack of accessibility to the listener.

Were you responding to someone else?

a reply to: TarzanBeta
I'm just kind of talking out loud there. Sorry didn't mean to target you like that.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: TarzanBeta
I'm just kind of talking out loud there. Sorry didn't mean to target you like that.

It's all good. I do that, too.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Yeah I'm a big fan of music and its arguments like the OPs that really grind my gears. It doesn't really reflect honest evidence analysis of the music industry. In FACT, in my opinion we are currently in the glory years of music. With the internet having shook the corporate control over music dissemination to the core, there is more access to music of all genres and skill gaps than ever before. On top of that, live music has made a return in a BIG way with the dawn of the summer music festival scene and scores of new live music venues opening up around the country. If you know what you are doing you can listen to years of music without ever having to relisten to a song. I cannot overstate how awesome it is to be a music lover these days.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Indeed. It is a music lover's paradise right now.

It is a music artist's hades, however. And to crawl out of hades requires the helping hands of those in paradise.

It did indeed used to be the other way around.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Yes, getting recognition is much harder, but I think that is also changing. I think more and more artists will lock into certain genres and become well known among that genre's fan base instead of just dominating across all the air waves. Musical genres are just getting too diverse to keep appealing to the entire country's musical tastes.

For instance, most people will not have heard of The String Cheese Incident outside of the Jam Band/Bluegrass scene, but WITHIN the scene that name is almost as ubiquitous as the grandfathers of that genre, the Grateful Dead or Phish.

But this also plays into my point about the resurgence of live music. Now more than ever, to get your name out, a band has to pay their dues in the clubs. There are a lot of good acts coming out of Colorado because that state has a STRONG live music scene right now. And frankly I'm ok with this, live music is just straight up MAGIC to experience. Everyone should attend a professional concert of their favorite band at least once in their life to experience how magical these things are. The interaction between the crowd's energy and the band playing enhances the experience to a great degree.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yes.

The primary issue is that most demographics require cover songs to itch their ears and tug their nostalgic hearts before they give an ear or heart to anything else. Or, at least, that's what most artists and producers and venue owners believe.

That being said, an excellent performer will not require that.

But there is a problem.

The artists, though they acquire some fame and super fans within their subgenres and micro-niches, work extra hard and receive almost nothing at the end of the day. Even if they're on a dedicated radio station nationwide, they're putting all their money into the work.

It is these, your favorites targeting niche demographics, that will burn out, and with them their legend, pretty quickly. A select few may write a universally accessible hit which somehow end up on the right desktop. Then they benefit from their working double time.

It's very fun and enlightening for you, though, and that matters more in the long run.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Google - What is the purpose of art

You will see the most responses are to stimulate emotions. I studied art in college. This is what I was taught over and over. Some art is sad, some is happy, some is angry. I don't know where you are getting the idea that it is there to build. It's not. It's a way to communicate your feelings.

Once again, you are picking out tunes that you find are "dumb" to say that music is dumbed down.

Again, I ask is music dumbed down, or is it smarter that someone can create more emotional responses with less of all those ingredients that you listed that goes into classical music?

Think of it as finding simpler tools to do the same job. Like using a lever, or using a pulley. Or creating a car to drive me 300 miles. Sure, I could walk the 300 miles, but I find it smarter to drive them.