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Donald Trump cannot replace Obamacare; here's why

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posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 05:11 PM
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originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: theworldisnotenough
Here is an interesting title of a "Washington Post" article dated today, January 10,2017:

If I ruled this kingdom, I'd go in the opposite direction and outlaw all forms of medical insurance. HMO's and any prepaid plans would have to go, too. They stink.


Medical insurance can work quite well. Provided people pay the government the premiums, and the government uses it's clout to bargain for the best insurance deal from the private insurance companies.

If you're not going to go that route, then the next best thing is no insurance requirement at all, like you propose.

The problem with Obamacare, is that it can't work. The private insurance companies have no incentive to lower premiums for the individuals, because the individuals don't have any clout or bargaining power. And all companies have the same goal of increasing "profit" wherever possible.

The corporate objective to "always increase profit" is at variance with the individuals need to "find lower premiums."

They are two contradictory goals. And only the corporations win in the Obamacare scenario. Any corporation that can't win, will simply quit the business, leaving no insurance provider available there.

Either way, the individual loses. He will pay higher premiums, if he can find any insurance co at all to sign up with.

It is true that some people get coverage, who could never get before, but that could more easily be solved with a complete government solution. No need for the half-baked plan of government law and private business.








Please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the system of socialized medicine in Canada work splendidly, so much so that Americans were crossing the border seeking medical services there... at least INITIALLY.

From what I understand, that system did not stand the test of time, and now Canadians are crossing the border into the United States seeking medical services... this to such a great extent that in U.S. regions anywhere near the border, Americans face long wait times for appointments for medical care.




posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 05:12 PM
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considering the high deductible most people have to pay before they even get anything out of their insurance policy, along with the out of pocket costs afterwards, I highly doubt if the insurance is enouraging many to go running to the doctor's for splinters and runny noses. the behavior you are describing seems to more relevant to medicaid if my observations are any indication!



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 05:21 PM
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originally posted by: theworldisnotenough

From what I understand, that system did not stand the test of time, and now Canadians are crossing the border into the United States seeking medical services... this to such a great extent that in U.S. regions anywhere near the border, Americans face long wait times for appointments for medical care.


There is no perfect system.

But, in Canada everyone is covered, and the premiums are reasonable.

But, the US has a much larger economy, and benefits from the economy of scale. There are more advanced proceedures available in the US than in Canada.

And when everybody is covered by insurance, everybody tends to use that insurance, which creates long lines at the doctors office.

So, the problem that Canada faces, is long waiting times to see the doctor for some "specialty" health issues. That's why people go to the US for treatment. There are many more hospitals in the US than in Canada. US has population of 300 million, Canada only has 30 million.

The Canadian system still works better overall for the average citizen, than the US system.

But you can always find some specialty area that the US citizens get better treatment.

But, try, for example, to visit the emergency room for a common cold. Compare the prices you have to pay in the US vs Canada. In Canada it's FREE, in the US it is easily $900 USD.



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 05:27 PM
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originally posted by: dawnstar
considering the high deductible most people have to pay before they even get anything out of their insurance policy, along with the out of pocket costs afterwards, I highly doubt if the insurance is enouraging many to go running to the doctor's for splinters and runny noses. the behavior you are describing seems to more relevant to medicaid if my observations are any indication!


It was just an illustrative example... HYPERBOLE!!

But let me say this...

In the absence of insurance coverage, the prices for medical services will be LOWER THAN COPAYS as copays currently exist.

Ditto for prescription drug plans. Ditto for Medicare.
edit on 10-1-2017 by theworldisnotenough because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 05:31 PM
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originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
Allow Medical insurance to Operate like Progressive and Geico car insurance and watch it fix itself......

Obviously I know there are more nuances to it then that, but it would be a pretty rapid fix


Well... I took Progressive 10 months to accept my resent claim, so my death would probably fix the problem of me living in a health insurance situation.



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 05:33 PM
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originally posted by: theworldisnotenough

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: theworldisnotenough

originally posted by: banjobrain
I think that best and ultimate solution is to reinstate a jungle style; no regulation, no consumer protections, ultra conservative private system and temper it with an opt in public option payer system. If you don't want any insurance you are on your own, no emergency room, nothing, just sell your house and die quickly.

This way everyone gets what they want and both systems will keep one another competitive.


My response: charity care.


My response, Africa for the last century which has received the most dollar amounts and sees the most preventible deaths despite charity care.


This is not Africa.


I'd say it is worse. A dollar goes a lot farther in Africa, probably by exponents if we are taking Medical Care.



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 06:01 PM
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originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
Allow Medical insurance to Operate like Progressive and Geico car insurance and watch it fix itself......

Obviously I know there are more nuances to it then that, but it would be a pretty rapid fix


Well... I took Progressive 10 months to accept my resent claim, so my death would probably fix the problem of me living in a health insurance situation.



Ummm, they dont have to follow the same model, it would be different because its Medical not vehicle, obviously......

Im not sure how the nuance is lost on you , but the point is, make it competitive and where they can compete nationwide with each other instead of only in their states.....



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 06:03 PM
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originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: theworldisnotenough
Here is an interesting title of a "Washington Post" article dated today, January 10,2017:

Trump to GOP: Obamacare is a disaster, right? So hurry up and replace it, already!

Here's why Donald Trump cannot replace Obamacare, and why he will ultimately have egg on his face for not doing so in a small nutshell: medical insurance is illogical.

Wikipedia reports that Donald Trump holds a degree in Economics from the Wharton School. What a scream! Has he not taken away anything from that education, or does he think that he is so high and mighty that he can overrule God's basic, natural laws of Economics?

Now, in a larger nutshell, I will further explain why medical insurance is illogical.

First, insurance coverage of a certainty as opposed to a risk is virtually a contradiction in terms. Just about everyone, especially as they age, will eventually need medical services at some time or other. But to make matters all the worse, The Donald, like Obama, wants to cover preexisting conditions. Can anything be more certain than preexisting conditions?

Secondly, the more people you cover with medical insurance, the more you send people rushing to doctors for every little splinter that they contract. This increases demand for medical services; this in turn increases demand for all sorts of medical services per Economics theory; this in turn raises the prices of medical services; the increase in the prices of medical services increases the price of medical insurance coverage due to more expensive claims; this causes more people to seek coverage; more people seeking coverage together with mandatory coverage as is the case under Obamacare cause insurance premiums to skyrocket AS HAS BEEN THE CASE UNDER OBAMACARE.

If I ruled this kingdom, I'd go in the opposite direction and outlaw all forms of medical insurance. HMO's and any prepaid plans would have to go, too. They stink.



I agree completely about the first half..

Insurance is a total scam. Health, medical, life, all of it.

For example; say we spend 100 billion dollars collectively on every Americans health care. If insurance companies are taking 30% of that off the top as insurance company profits, and they ARE NOT PREFORMING A HEATH CARE RELATED FUNCTION. They are paper pushers taking a huge chunk of the pie!!!


That's why I think nonprofit government run health care institutions is the only logical option.

Recycle that 30% back into the industry.

See I don't think an "if you can't afford it your children are screwed" approach works for a modern society.


Really, VA for everyone... not a good plan.

You want to fix it, mandatory posted pricing on all non emergency procedures and tests.



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 06:04 PM
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originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: theworldisnotenough
Here is an interesting title of a "Washington Post" article dated today, January 10,2017:

Trump to GOP: Obamacare is a disaster, right? So hurry up and replace it, already!

Here's why Donald Trump cannot replace Obamacare, and why he will ultimately have egg on his face for not doing so in a small nutshell: medical insurance is illogical.

Wikipedia reports that Donald Trump holds a degree in Economics from the Wharton School. What a scream! Has he not taken away anything from that education, or does he think that he is so high and mighty that he can overrule God's basic, natural laws of Economics?

Now, in a larger nutshell, I will further explain why medical insurance is illogical.

First, insurance coverage of a certainty as opposed to a risk is virtually a contradiction in terms. Just about everyone, especially as they age, will eventually need medical services at some time or other. But to make matters all the worse, The Donald, like Obama, wants to cover preexisting conditions. Can anything be more certain than preexisting conditions?

Secondly, the more people you cover with medical insurance, the more you send people rushing to doctors for every little splinter that they contract. This increases demand for medical services; this in turn increases demand for all sorts of medical services per Economics theory; this in turn raises the prices of medical services; the increase in the prices of medical services increases the price of medical insurance coverage due to more expensive claims; this causes more people to seek coverage; more people seeking coverage together with mandatory coverage as is the case under Obamacare cause insurance premiums to skyrocket AS HAS BEEN THE CASE UNDER OBAMACARE.

If I ruled this kingdom, I'd go in the opposite direction and outlaw all forms of medical insurance. HMO's and any prepaid plans would have to go, too. They stink.





Insurance is a total scam. Health, medical, life, all of it.

For example; say we spend 100 billion dollars collectively on every Americans health care. If insurance companies are taking 30% of that off the top as insurance company profits, and they ARE NOT PREFORMING A HEATH CARE RELATED FUNCTION. They are paper pushers taking a huge chunk of the pie!!!


Excellent point.

And along the same vein of thought, socialized systems create a fertile breeding ground for rampant fraud under various scams.

When someone pays out of pocket for something, there is a much greater likelihood that he will be monitoring things with a closer eye of scrutiny. However, when person B picks up the tab for person A for medical services, person A will be apathetic about bitching about cheating.... AND SO IT HAPPENS on a grand scale.

Everybody profits from such a system except for the poor schnooks who have to foot the bill for it: THE MIDDLE CLASSS!

CORRECTION: the disappearing middle class.
edit on 10-1-2017 by theworldisnotenough because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 06:06 PM
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a reply to: theworldisnotenough

Now, I am a big opposer to "public option" simply because like anything else in Government, Lobbyist will actually write the damn bill to favor the "special interests" at the cost of the citizens.

So, we have 3 primary systems that have been in place in recent years. Private Insurance Companies setting the rules and rates, medicade/medicare payouts, and now Obama Care which is a hybrid.

None of these address costs because healthcare conglomerates can charge whatever they want for their goods and services, including variable pricing depending on the recipients coverage, and no laws requiring "posted pricing".

So, here is my "big government" way to fix healthcare.... (very high level)

Implement common codes for every non-emergency healthcare procedure, diagnostic tests and services. Instead of some inefficient public option we provide Healthcare Debit Cards... yes, Special Debit cards that can only be used for authorized medical procedures.

You want to see a Doctor, you get on your computer or Iphone and choose which one you want by how much they charge, ratings, etc. See all available Doctors, Clinics, or walk in care centers within X radius of zipcode xxxxx by lowest price, go.

Similarly, If a Doctor orders tests, imaging, etc. They are required to hand you a form with the specific test codes. Then you can search again and actually choose based on price, ratings, or other sorting options. In this way, healthcare facilities actually have to compete for your business and it puts choice back into your hands. Prices will drop and quality will improve.

(See Lazik Surgery for example, prices continue to drop and quality / technology constantly improve because it is not subsidized by insurance)

3/4 of any unused funds carry over every year with 1/4 of unused funds being given to you as cash at tax time. (incentive not to use it frivolously and prevent fraud).



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 06:49 PM
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originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
Allow Medical insurance to Operate like Progressive and Geico car insurance and watch it fix itself......


There is big problem with that. A body is not a car.

The government has a law that says you must buy auto insurance if you have a car and want to drive it on the public road.

When the insurance co raises my premiums above what I can afford, I just sell the car, I can walk, use public transport etc..

But, what to do when the government has a law that says you must buy health insurance if you're alive?

I can't dump my body, the same way I can dump my car.

I have no way to "opt out."

Do I just commit suicide?

How do I solve that problem?

I guess I could emigrate to Canada.

But, that's the only reasonable option left, when the greedy insurance cos decide to jack up my premiums above my affordability level.



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 07:26 PM
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originally posted by: infolurker

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: theworldisnotenough
Here is an interesting title of a "Washington Post" article dated today, January 10,2017:

Trump to GOP: Obamacare is a disaster, right? So hurry up and replace it, already!

Here's why Donald Trump cannot replace Obamacare, and why he will ultimately have egg on his face for not doing so in a small nutshell: medical insurance is illogical.

Wikipedia reports that Donald Trump holds a degree in Economics from the Wharton School. What a scream! Has he not taken away anything from that education, or does he think that he is so high and mighty that he can overrule God's basic, natural laws of Economics?

Now, in a larger nutshell, I will further explain why medical insurance is illogical.

First, insurance coverage of a certainty as opposed to a risk is virtually a contradiction in terms. Just about everyone, especially as they age, will eventually need medical services at some time or other. But to make matters all the worse, The Donald, like Obama, wants to cover preexisting conditions. Can anything be more certain than preexisting conditions?

Secondly, the more people you cover with medical insurance, the more you send people rushing to doctors for every little splinter that they contract. This increases demand for medical services; this in turn increases demand for all sorts of medical services per Economics theory; this in turn raises the prices of medical services; the increase in the prices of medical services increases the price of medical insurance coverage due to more expensive claims; this causes more people to seek coverage; more people seeking coverage together with mandatory coverage as is the case under Obamacare cause insurance premiums to skyrocket AS HAS BEEN THE CASE UNDER OBAMACARE.

If I ruled this kingdom, I'd go in the opposite direction and outlaw all forms of medical insurance. HMO's and any prepaid plans would have to go, too. They stink.



I agree completely about the first half..

Insurance is a total scam. Health, medical, life, all of it.

For example; say we spend 100 billion dollars collectively on every Americans health care. If insurance companies are taking 30% of that off the top as insurance company profits, and they ARE NOT PREFORMING A HEATH CARE RELATED FUNCTION. They are paper pushers taking a huge chunk of the pie!!!


That's why I think nonprofit government run health care institutions is the only logical option.

Recycle that 30% back into the industry.

See I don't think an "if you can't afford it your children are screwed" approach works for a modern society.


Really, VA for everyone... not a good plan.

You want to fix it, mandatory posted pricing on all non emergency procedures and tests.



Wouldn't elininate or really address at all the poor or lower middle class who end up hurt or sick..

Not just the lazy, but anyone who lives anywhere near paycheck to paycheck.

What let everyone's kid with leukemia who is not a millionaires child die??

You can't just cap prices because a lot of purcedures are extremely expensive reguardless. Even when removing insurance companies..

Government run anything isn't inherently evil or corrupt, truth is we just now have the tech to monitor and police government. Previous generations did not.



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 07:27 PM
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Dbl
edit on 10-1-2017 by JoshuaCox because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 07:27 PM
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Trple lol
edit on 10-1-2017 by JoshuaCox because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 07:28 PM
link   

originally posted by: theworldisnotenough

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: theworldisnotenough
Here is an interesting title of a "Washington Post" article dated today, January 10,2017:

Trump to GOP: Obamacare is a disaster, right? So hurry up and replace it, already!

Here's why Donald Trump cannot replace Obamacare, and why he will ultimately have egg on his face for not doing so in a small nutshell: medical insurance is illogical.

Wikipedia reports that Donald Trump holds a degree in Economics from the Wharton School. What a scream! Has he not taken away anything from that education, or does he think that he is so high and mighty that he can overrule God's basic, natural laws of Economics?

Now, in a larger nutshell, I will further explain why medical insurance is illogical.

First, insurance coverage of a certainty as opposed to a risk is virtually a contradiction in terms. Just about everyone, especially as they age, will eventually need medical services at some time or other. But to make matters all the worse, The Donald, like Obama, wants to cover preexisting conditions. Can anything be more certain than preexisting conditions?

Secondly, the more people you cover with medical insurance, the more you send people rushing to doctors for every little splinter that they contract. This increases demand for medical services; this in turn increases demand for all sorts of medical services per Economics theory; this in turn raises the prices of medical services; the increase in the prices of medical services increases the price of medical insurance coverage due to more expensive claims; this causes more people to seek coverage; more people seeking coverage together with mandatory coverage as is the case under Obamacare cause insurance premiums to skyrocket AS HAS BEEN THE CASE UNDER OBAMACARE.

If I ruled this kingdom, I'd go in the opposite direction and outlaw all forms of medical insurance. HMO's and any prepaid plans would have to go, too. They stink.





Insurance is a total scam. Health, medical, life, all of it.

For example; say we spend 100 billion dollars collectively on every Americans health care. If insurance companies are taking 30% of that off the top as insurance company profits, and they ARE NOT PREFORMING A HEATH CARE RELATED FUNCTION. They are paper pushers taking a huge chunk of the pie!!!


Excellent point.

And along the same vein of thought, socialized systems create a fertile breeding ground for rampant fraud under various scams.

When someone pays out of pocket for something, there is a much greater likelihood that he will be monitoring things with a closer eye of scrutiny. However, when person B picks up the tab for person A for medical services, person A will be apathetic about bitching about cheating.... AND SO IT HAPPENS on a grand scale.

Everybody profits from such a system except for the poor schnooks who have to foot the bill for it: THE MIDDLE CLASSS!

CORRECTION: the disappearing middle class.


But now we have the tech and electronic paper trail to police the corruption, previous generations did not.



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 07:28 PM
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Quad damn...
edit on 10-1-2017 by JoshuaCox because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 08:32 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH

Well so far we've been getting fined for not having insurance so......next question we already have that problem



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 08:41 PM
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originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
a reply to: AMPTAH

Well so far we've been getting fined for not having insurance so......next question we already have that problem


But, that's why Obamacare is a so bad.

Capitalism only works when the consumer can refuse to buy. That's an essential option that must exist in the capitalist system.

To compel commerce is just another form of enslavement.

That's what the slave masters did to their slaves. There's no way out for a slave. He must serve his master. He could commit suicide. But, that's the only way out.

Obamacare is modern enslavement. The masters are the insurance cos. The slaves are all the people: black, white, and blue. No racial discrimination in this slavery, all are subjected to the same insurance masters.

Best to abolish this madness. We abolished slavery centuries ago. Why bring it back, under this new disguise?

Is it punishment, for past actions?

Who thought this made sense?



posted on Jan, 10 2017 @ 08:54 PM
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originally posted by: theworldisnotenough

originally posted by: dawnstar
considering the high deductible most people have to pay before they even get anything out of their insurance policy, along with the out of pocket costs afterwards, I highly doubt if the insurance is enouraging many to go running to the doctor's for splinters and runny noses. the behavior you are describing seems to more relevant to medicaid if my observations are any indication!


It was just an illustrative example... HYPERBOLE!!

But let me say this...

In the absence of insurance coverage, the prices for medical services will be LOWER THAN COPAYS as copays currently exist.

Ditto for prescription drug plans. Ditto for Medicare.


Hospitals already do it.

No Insurance Accepted

Their costs are 1/6 to 1/8 of "normal" hospitals. You can put it on a card.

ACTUAL private hospitals work fine... it's when you throw the government into it that it gets pricey. Probably a coincidence. NOT



posted on Jan, 11 2017 @ 12:52 AM
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The argument is similar to one my teacher told of student loans. People take out so much in student loans. But student loans themselves are to blame for schools charging 30-60 grand a year. If no one could pay the tuition the school would have to lower costs or close.

Bringing this argument full circle; doctors often owe hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loan debt by the time they receive an MD. If you owe that much money you will seek a job whereby you can pay the money back. And the hospitals which pay the most charge the most. My father is an anesthesiologist, worked in the public sector teaching residents for almost 20 years; head of the department. He paid off his student loan debt at the age of 53, and is now saving for retirement.

The American healthcare system has quite the temperament for being expensive; it is also the society which allows the lifestyle and environment to be one that is bad for your health. The sad fact is they made the game a long time ago, and you have to pay to play.




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