It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Has Russia defeated the USA?

page: 5
15
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:10 PM
link   

originally posted by: banjobrain
The Russian economy is so small because sanctions have kept it artificially small.


No, the Russian economy is small because since the collapse of the Soviet Union the subsequent governments failed to diversify and invest. Russia's economy is based around oil and gas. The income inequality is worse than the USA, with Putin surrounding himself with billionaires made rich through nepotism and political favouritism.

EU sanctions due to the Russian annexation of Crimea are the least of Russia's economic worries. They have compounded the impact of low oil prices due to over-production.




posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:11 PM
link   

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton
Defeated the USA in what contest. I will concede they won a non existant race if it helps you break from the red fever so we can move on.


Oh yes, Russia is more trust worthy than the systems we pay a million dollars a year to fund!

You have broken my Red Fever with your deep analysis comrade


So the game is about trust? What do we spend this money on that is supposed to build trust?


I guess nothing, we spend a trillion dollars a year on nothing I guess since you cannot even identify what we are talking about here. The American government are liars! Trust Russia!

See, the game is won when there is nothing to trust


Fine by me. No one should trust their government without skepticism. Is this a revelation to you? If it's a game of trust then yes Putin won when he framed our highly cynical of government constitution.


Side with Russia then, Americans are all liars, especially the ones tasked with "keeping us safe", the ones who inform military
strategy and security.



You are confusing agreeing with someone as trusting them.



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:12 PM
link   

originally posted by: GodEmperor
a reply to: banjobrain

It's real simple actually.

Democrats want to use the 'Russia hacks' as an excuse to destroy America by way of dismantling the electoral college, and suppressing alternative media outlets that do not fit the liberal narrative.

The height of the Cold War saw massive amounts of Soviet infiltration into left-wing activist groups in America, especially the 60's peace revolution. Those Communist ideals that were imparted into the 60's flower children, were imparted on their kids, and so on; now we have the modern liberal, the product of Communist propaganda and a tool of destruction of the very foundation America was built on.

Your attempts to associate the right with Russians are laughable. It's a nice propaganda technique, but I am well aware of Bernays et al. I see exactly what you are doing.

I guess now you are in full favor of all those US military bases encircling China and Russia? You no longer oppose PD-59, which is still in effect, ironically implemented by a liberal.

I think you're still angry that Russia has abandoned their Communist roots in favor of capitalism. Must be why you don't even acknowledge the massive amounts of Chinese hacking that has continued through the Obama admin.


You are so off the mark with everything, I am not sure there is much of a point discussing it. Your assumptions about my logic and motives really represent what you want to believe and not what I actually believe. You are so stuck in partisanship that you are embodying the Hegelian dialectic. You cannot see that because you assume this Russia is keeping tabs on ideological purity like you do. I suggest that Russia is using identity politics to give them a wide birth and let them set them selves up geopolitically. They will keep making moves and Trump will say, "Those poor loser liberals again", and you will sleep a thousand slumbers trusting Russia and believing Americans are out to destroy America. Will there ever be a day that you distrust Russia, because of course those terrible liberals are just mad because they are capitalists now. Russia has a green light now because the group historically opposed to them, love them and trust them more than the American system, due to the terrible American liberals. It is like the human centipede

Keep talking about liberals comrade, and remember, Americans are your enemies, sleep well.



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:13 PM
link   

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton
Defeated the USA in what contest. I will concede they won a non existant race if it helps you break from the red fever so we can move on.


Oh yes, Russia is more trust worthy than the systems we pay a million dollars a year to fund!

You have broken my Red Fever with your deep analysis comrade


So the game is about trust? What do we spend this money on that is supposed to build trust?


I guess nothing, we spend a trillion dollars a year on nothing I guess since you cannot even identify what we are talking about here. The American government are liars! Trust Russia!

See, the game is won when there is nothing to trust


Fine by me. No one should trust their government without skepticism. Is this a revelation to you? If it's a game of trust then yes Putin won when he framed our highly cynical of government constitution.


Side with Russia then, Americans are all liars, especially the ones tasked with "keeping us safe", the ones who inform military
strategy and security.



You are confusing agreeing with someone as trusting them.


Also, i trust our government to do their jobs. I disagree that entails telling us the truth.



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:14 PM
link   

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton
Defeated the USA in what contest. I will concede they won a non existant race if it helps you break from the red fever so we can move on.


Oh yes, Russia is more trust worthy than the systems we pay a million dollars a year to fund!

You have broken my Red Fever with your deep analysis comrade


So the game is about trust? What do we spend this money on that is supposed to build trust?


I guess nothing, we spend a trillion dollars a year on nothing I guess since you cannot even identify what we are talking about here. The American government are liars! Trust Russia!

See, the game is won when there is nothing to trust


Fine by me. No one should trust their government without skepticism. Is this a revelation to you? If it's a game of trust then yes Putin won when he framed our highly cynical of government constitution.


Side with Russia then, Americans are all liars, especially the ones tasked with "keeping us safe", the ones who inform military
strategy and security.



You are confusing agreeing with someone as trusting them.


Not really, but if that is the finger that holds back the dam, why not!

You cannot agree with someone you don't trust, so what is the point?



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:14 PM
link   
a reply to: banjobrain



Why is cooperating with Russia considered losing?!?!

No offense but the USA is not king of the planet. There was nothing for the US to "lose" against Russia.

People are tired of old people who can't get over cold war mentality.



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:16 PM
link   

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton
Defeated the USA in what contest. I will concede they won a non existant race if it helps you break from the red fever so we can move on.


Oh yes, Russia is more trust worthy than the systems we pay a million dollars a year to fund!

You have broken my Red Fever with your deep analysis comrade


So the game is about trust? What do we spend this money on that is supposed to build trust?


I guess nothing, we spend a trillion dollars a year on nothing I guess since you cannot even identify what we are talking about here. The American government are liars! Trust Russia!

See, the game is won when there is nothing to trust


Fine by me. No one should trust their government without skepticism. Is this a revelation to you? If it's a game of trust then yes Putin won when he framed our highly cynical of government constitution.


Side with Russia then, Americans are all liars, especially the ones tasked with "keeping us safe", the ones who inform military
strategy and security.



You are confusing agreeing with someone as trusting them.


Also, i trust our government to do their jobs. I disagree that entails telling us the truth.


So how do you ever know what the truth is???

You see, that was exactly Marx's point. The truth dies, the people fight eachother and the country falters as the policy is based upon emotions and not logic or strategy.



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:20 PM
link   

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
a reply to: banjobrain



Why is cooperating with Russia considered losing?!?!

No offense but the USA is not king of the planet. There was nothing for the US to "lose" against Russia.

People are tired of old people who can't get over cold war mentality.


You can call is cooperating, but in the case of Syria it was giving Russia a virtual monopoly on middle east Oil distribution to Europe and Eurasia. If you understand the US dollar is based upon the sales of oil, you will understand that America might of just undermined it's own currency in a fatal way.

And

how do you know that Putin, who is ex KGB, is over his cold war mentality?

Do you really think after the US sanctions just wrecked their economy, that they are playing nice from their perspective?

All this trust!

Good comrades



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:21 PM
link   
a reply to: banjobrain

Look at you, making assumptions, you are not my antithesis.

Maybe the only thing left is to nuke Russia?

I trust Russia even less than I trust the US. Stew on that one for a while.



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:21 PM
link   
a reply to: banjobrain

I'm guessing that FAITH errosion thing would require disarmament and the continued feminization of males in our country SO they can be compliant comrades?
I ain't DEAD yet so the answer is a positive NO.



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:24 PM
link   

originally posted by: GodEmperor
a reply to: banjobrain

Look at you, making assumptions, you are not my antithesis.

Maybe the only thing left is to nuke Russia?

I trust Russia even less than I trust the US. Stew on that one for a while.


Well then Russia has somehow convinced you to do their work without pay or even without your knowledge.

I don't think there is anything to do, so stew on that a while yourself, I think we lost the chess match.



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:24 PM
link   
Your fallacy is the same pitfalls of every empire before.

Expanding it's reach too far, unsustainable, and inevitably collapse.

If you cannot see that, it's a shame, if you do, I have to question your motives.



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:26 PM
link   
a reply to: banjobrain

Maybe you should check out a thread I posted a while ago, it might help you in some desperately needed understanding:

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:36 PM
link   
a reply to: banjobrain

I think it's time to interject a few facts and a little truth into this OP. Sam Hale on the American Thinker website summarize this entire issue quite succinctly:

"First of all, it's pretty clear Russia did not hack the DNC. There's been a lot of whining and zero evidence, and it's clearly the establishment GOP and the Democrats making a desperate attempt to delegitimize Trump to save the status quo.

But let's say Russia did the hack. Three important points:

1) The DNC is not part of the United States government. Throughout the primaries, when Sanders and Trump were getting shafted, we heard constantly that the political parties are private organizations. A hack on the DNC is not at all different from a hack at KFC for the secret recipe. It is similar to the hack on Sony that may have been done by North Korea. This is not a national security issue.

2) Everything WikiLeaks dropped was true. If NBC, ABC, FOX, and CBS will not tell us the truth regarding our political parties, why would it be wrong for a foreign power to tell the American people the truth? It is so pathetic – they're making the claim that Russia violated our national security by telling Americans the truth. If the Russians made the hack on the DNC, give them the Medal of Freedom; they exposed a pack of corrupt liars who almost took control of our government.

3) Does anyone think for a second were not doing the same stuff to the Russians? We've done much worse in several countries. In Nigeria, Obama worked with David Axelrod to campaign against the incumbent president to help get a Muslim elected. In Israel, the Obamas desperately campaigned against Netanyahu. We've done much worse than this purported hack to other countries – why are we crying the blues when a foreign power embarrasses Hillary?"



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:44 PM
link   

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton

originally posted by: banjobrain

originally posted by: Templeton
Defeated the USA in what contest. I will concede they won a non existant race if it helps you break from the red fever so we can move on.


Oh yes, Russia is more trust worthy than the systems we pay a million dollars a year to fund!

You have broken my Red Fever with your deep analysis comrade


So the game is about trust? What do we spend this money on that is supposed to build trust?


I guess nothing, we spend a trillion dollars a year on nothing I guess since you cannot even identify what we are talking about here. The American government are liars! Trust Russia!

See, the game is won when there is nothing to trust


Fine by me. No one should trust their government without skepticism. Is this a revelation to you? If it's a game of trust then yes Putin won when he framed our highly cynical of government constitution.


Side with Russia then, Americans are all liars, especially the ones tasked with "keeping us safe", the ones who inform military
strategy and security.



You are confusing agreeing with someone as trusting them.


Not really, but if that is the finger that holds back the dam, why not!

You cannot agree with someone you don't trust, so what is the point?


I dont trust you, but i think we can agree on a few things? 2 is greater than 1?



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:47 PM
link   

originally posted by: GodEmperor
a reply to: banjobrain

Maybe you should check out a thread I posted a while ago, it might help you in some desperately needed understanding:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Great post, well worth the read...can't say you are wrong, but I still have hope until I see a little more of the current political drama play out after Jan. 20th.



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 03:50 PM
link   
a reply to: banjobrain

What's alarming to me is that President-elect Trump could turn this right around if he'd stop letting his ego get in the way — but he won't. As soon as Trump publicly accepts that Russia was behind the hacks, then most of his supporters will too.



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 04:01 PM
link   
a reply to: theantediluvian

That would be a shame.

I opposed the cybersecurity bills that have tried to pass for years now. Every time the language always refers to censoring internet sources whatever administration is in power disagrees with.

I really hope you are wrong on that part, but in US politics demagoguery has no bounds. Just look at the Obama years for that, anti-war liberals supporting Obama in his brutal exploits throughout the Middle Eastern world.



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 05:55 PM
link   
My opinion remains that while it is not why Trump won the election (the DNC lost the election more than he won it, imho - people are fed up,) and while I have seen no conclusive proof Russia did what they are saying it did, nor do I trust our intelligence agencies (who are and have always been literally in the business of manufacturing disinformation,) it would still be naive and dangerous to assume Russia - especially under the leadership of a former KGB operative who has stated the collapse of the USSR was the greatest geopolitical disaster of modern history - is suddenly to be trusted as the good guy on the world stage.

I wrote about this in another topic (can't link it here, as it's on RATS,) but what I am seeing is total erosion of any and all confidence in anything people choose to label "the establishment." The problem is, what has been labeled the establishment currently includes essentially all government authority or intellectual authorities, ipso factor, in summation, as a whole, with no nuance or delineation between when they're right, and when they're wrong.

If this rejection of the establishment reflected reality in a nuanced, careful way, this would be a wonderful thing. There definitely is an establishment in both major political parties and in our financial system and the military industrial complex that has carved up our economy for the exploitation of the working class and the poor alike, and corrupted our politics entirely with big money. The rejection and ultimate overturning of that would be phenomenal.

Unfortunately, since it's been characterized and opposed in such a broad strokes, wide net, catch all manner, "the establishment" people now want to overturn includes:


  • Forces perceived in unsupported conspiracy theories
  • Scientific consensus
  • Longstanding alliances and political relationships which, while imperfect and not ideal, have greatly benefited us (yes, there are others that have not, and should be reassessed, to be sure imo)
  • The international world order (which does not mean "the NWO") that, again, while imperfect and not ideal, has at least in some cumbersome sense prevented world war 3 since the end of the last world war. (Again, it too is highly corrupt now however, and does require reorganization and reassessment imo.)
  • All mainstream media (I don't trust them either, and we should always assess every news outlet's slant and spin - they ALL have them - but to completely do away with anything but alternative media on the internet is a recipe for being misinformed imo. Instead, I would advocate reading everything, then fact checking with reliable sources, so that a picture emerges not only of the facts, but every outlet's slant and spin and perspective on them as well, so that we truly have a comprehensive picture not only factually but socially and politically, of what's going on. We should also be JUST AS SUSPICIOUS of alternative news sources as we are "the mainstream media," because many of them have agendas as well, like it or not. There is NO "unbiased" news. It does not exist. To say otherwise trades one form of propaganda for another.)


... and much else that, while definitely in need of reexamination (something we should always be doing anyway imo - we tend as a species to let things become far too stagnant out of habit rather than continually refining them, especially our institutions,) are not in and of themselves automatically evil or undesirable.

But in a world where people get much of their news on internet forums, social media, and from online alternative media sources, this level of nuance and discernment is simply "not cool" anymore. People are so fed up that they are more than willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and try something new... ANYTHING new. AnyONE new. They don't care if what the "alternative" is might actually be dangerous too, or exploiting their desperation and willingness to veer wildly in the opposite direction from where we were headed previously.

Russia - the government at least - is today effectively an oligarchy, with power centralized predominantly around one man who has hung on to power much longer than most ever anticipated. This does not make them evil or our adversary automatically. Again, this is like the rest of this, something that requires nuance rather than black or white thinking. On the contrary, we ourselves have no room to boast, as because of big money in politics, and the stranglehold the MIC has had on policy since the time of Eisenhower or before (it has grown dramatically since WW2, though,) we too are virtually like an oligarchy. A word Sanders, imo accurately, uses to describe our system today.

Moreover, our disastrous foreign policy - overseen by administrations and congressional leadership in BOTH parties - has led to a worsening situation economically and geopolitically for pretty much everyone, but especially in the Middle East imo.

Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a precarious position. Our population is aging, and our economic growth is anemic. We very soon will not be able to take care of our oldest and otherwise most vulnerable people, across the board. Not if we wish to also remain the preeminent military and economic force on the planet. That decline is happening. It is already in motion. To the extent that much of this backlash against the establishment is actually a reaction directly to the economic squeeze already taking place as we put off these big decisions about the future of our country and its economic and foreign policy.

A change is definitely needed. But Russia, is not somehow automatically trustworthy suddenly. Nor are they working "against the NWO" imo. If an NWO exists - which I also consider dubious, as it seems more likely to me that there are myriad interest groups and power centers, both secret and public, all competing with one another, only occasionally working in tandem, which is even scarier because no one's hand is on the wheel of the vehicle that is the world in terms of policy - Russia is just as likely to be part and parcel of it as we are.

My preference would absolutely be that we and Russia work together to improve the peace, stability, and security of the world. Trading our own leadership for theirs or our trustworthiness for theirs is not how we go about that though, imo. We are not saints, and neither are they. The myth of American exceptionalism and moral standing is unraveling, and needs to to some degree as far as I'm concerned. We NEED to be taken down a peg, and assume a new attitude and direction in my view. But we shouldn't go directly from that to the opposite extreme that, "America is terrible and evil, and Russia is enlightened and fighting against our hegemony, and our new anti-establishment leaders are going to save us all from our own shortcomings and work with Russia to do that."

No, they are engaging in their own more covert and subtle form of hegemonic aspirations. As is every power on the world stage, sadly. THAT is what needs to change, but that's unlikely to happen anytime soon. Human nature and all of that. Which is why we ourselves must remain vigilant and not give unearned and unfettered trust to anyone - here or elsewhere - who says they have all the answers and are pure as the driven snow. People like that don't ascend to that level of power. Question ALL power. Including Russia & Trump.

My very long two cents.

Peace.



posted on Jan, 8 2017 @ 06:14 PM
link   
US citizens learning to use critical thinking is good.

Russia is in as much danger from this as the US Media.

It is a victory for the US in good time.

No way a victory for Russia





top topics



 
15
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join